The N&W J could probably match the Niagra or Hudson in top speed if required, but compare the driver size. Driver size is important but not everything.
Probably, though, the fastest USA steam locomotives were the PRR T1s, with either the Atlantics or the Baltics (Hudsons) of the Milwaukee second. And if we include Canada, then wonder if the true Jubelees ever had a chance to show their stuff.
We've gone 'round and 'round on this in the past on various threads, but the general consensus among World War Two historians is that Hitler was under NO obligation to declare war on the United States just because Japan did. The Japanese certainly didn't declare war on any of the European countries Germany did, at least not until it suited their own purposes to do so.
Maybe Hitler thought Japan might maybe, possibly, declare war on the Soviet Union and attack Siberia with all those troops they had in Manchuria sitting on their butts doing nothing and take some of the heat off the Germans fighting in Russia. If that's what he thought he was sadly mistaken.
Goering, Ribbentrop, Keitel and Jodl strongly advised Hitler not to declare war on the US, but he didn't listen, which was strange because for the most part Hitler seemed to have learned the lessons of World War One up to that point, especially the one of don't get the Americans involved in a European war.
wjstix Back to the German-Italian-Japanese pact for a second...the exact wording wasn't really all that relevent. The US declaring war on Japan - even though it was in response to a Japanese attack - was in affect an 'attack' on Japan that Germany would be obligated to respond to. If not, Hitler risked losing the confidence of the European countries he was allied with or who had pro-German governments.
Back to the German-Italian-Japanese pact for a second...the exact wording wasn't really all that relevent. The US declaring war on Japan - even though it was in response to a Japanese attack - was in affect an 'attack' on Japan that Germany would be obligated to respond to. If not, Hitler risked losing the confidence of the European countries he was allied with or who had pro-German governments.
Hey everyone, we saw "Darkest Hour" today, and it's GREAT! Gary Oldman's just stunning as Winston! And it's something I never expected to see again, that is, a movie for mature men! And women too, lest I be misunderstood!
Do yourselves a favor and go see it, you won't be disappointed!
598 Mohawks to the scrappers, 275 Hudsons ( all of 'em) 27 Niagaras (all of 'em).
2 out of 600 Mohawks spared, one by begging and pleading and one by sheer audacity and luck. A lot of Mikes, 0-6-0's, 0-8-0's and on and on it goes.
A lot of steam everywhere scrapped, does anyone know the number that were around and active, say VJ Day, and then Jan 1 1960.
Just the PRR number is mind numbing.
M636CBut I understood that all L-4s had 72" driving wheels.
Yes, I should have said just 3000. And yes, the L-4s had 72" drivers, but still not tall enough, in my opinion, to rival the Hudsons (or Niagaras) as visually high-speed engines. (The fact that even the rebuilt L-2s were plenty fast for most practical NYC passenger trains, while remaining excellent freight engines, we can overlook as this is a discussion of esthetics and not practicality.)
Mohawks in general suffered from far too low a visible driver diameter, with even the test high-speed units getting up only to 72".
I'm not sure what was meant here...
The title "test high speed units" would normally refer to the rebuilt L-2s (2998 and 2999?) with 69" driving wheels that served as prototypes for the L-3s.
3000 itself was fitted with 72" driving wheels.
But I understood that all L-4s had 72" driving wheels.
Peter
Well Overmod me old son, since you've popped a little Latin on us how's about some "Light of Rome?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxqJF_7RCkE
I don't understand a word they're saying but it sends chills up my spine anyway.
Something in my ethnic background kickin' in? Could be...
Roma aeterna est!
Firelock76It may be sacrilege to some for me to say so, but honestly I prefer the look of the Mohawk to that of the Hudson
De gustibus non disputandum est ... BUT I think the Mohawks in general suffered from far too low a visible driver diameter, with even the test high-speed units getting up only to 72". What works on a Berk does not on a 'long Pacific', and had there been Mohawks with the 75" of the original Niagara (or, perhaps, the 79" of the corrected ones) you'd have something as balanced as the J1s. (I don't think much of the proportions of any J3 compared to the 'original', and the J2s even without sagging cabs just ... well, B&A had just as pretty 4-6-6s, if you kept your view strictly of the front. I have no particular issue celebrating a restoration of 3001 as just as significant, and beautiful, a piece of NYC power as a contemporary Hudson ... and, in fact, in recommending 3001 be finished before setting up a replication like "5345".
Personally I'm sorry the Niagaras had to get that Frankenstein "Selkirk" smokebox-front arrangement, no matter how good for maintenance it turned out to be -- and that goes for Mohawks and Hudsons as well. (Not as bad as those K6 engines, though -- few things could be!)
It may be sacrilege to some for me to say so, but honestly I prefer the look of the Mohawk to that of the Hudson, the Dreyfuss Hudsons excepted.
Can't tell you why, it's just one of those things.
The L-3 in particular is a good substitute for a Hudson. The front three-quarter view is very similar. The driving wheels are significantly smaller, but there are more of them. You don't have to imagine anything about a Hudson with an L-3 to look at. Virtually all the constructional details are the same and they are the same size within inches, based on the drawings in the Kalmbach Cyclopedia.
Both the Mohawks were lucky to survive, and may not have been as deserving as a Hudson.
I have a Lionel scale Hudson, a 1990 reproduction, not a real 700E, and I should get a Mohawk to go with it, to satisfy my desire to compare them.
MidlandMike I know one Mohawk, and maybe two, were saved. (Elkhart and St. Louis)
I know one Mohawk, and maybe two, were saved. (Elkhart and St. Louis)
You're absolutely right, there are two at the places you mentioned. I let my hyperbole get the better of me.
CSSHEGEWISCH A roundhouse that is no longer needed eats money (property taxes and maintenance) that could be put to better use elsewhere. Misplaced company pride put red ink on the Centennial annual report.
A roundhouse that is no longer needed eats money (property taxes and maintenance) that could be put to better use elsewhere. Misplaced company pride put red ink on the Centennial annual report.
All true, all very true, but I see where Miningman's coming from.
I try to be a bit charitable, the men running railroads, then and now, are businessmen, not historians, buy at least the PRR made some attempt with the Northumberland collection, the B&O did even better. It's the NYC that has me scratching my head. All those steamers they were exhibiting such pride in a few years earlier, Hudsons, Niagaras, Mohawks, et al, and they didn't save ONE?
Flogging a dead horse, I know.
Yes, Overmod alluded to correspondence within the PRR as to it's fate and there was some gnashing of teeth over its disposition. In the end however some bigshot overrules and it succumbed to the bean counters. So much for company pride and history, let alone science and achievement.
After that the floodgates opened and PRR and NYC, many others, did an outstanding job of destroying themselves...workers must have been terrified. Pockets were greased, certain bank accounts swelled and we were sold a bill of goods. Some crooks were caught, Sauders legacy is that of a 'Vandal'.
What of all those monstrous war time profits and cost savings everywhere? PRR declared a loss in 1947...like whaaat?
Not one Hudson, not one Niagara. Pennsylvania Station.
We didn't need the Nazis to bomb the Crestline Roundhouse, ...did it for them.
The S-1, for all its magnificence, reminds me of the old joke about a guy who builds a boat in his backyard, and then can't get it out past the house!
The S-1 was a great runner, and got the PRR to seriously think about persuing the duplex concept, it was just too darn big to be practical.
Still, they should have sent it to the Northumberland collection instead of scrapping it. What a shame!
Miningman M636C-- Fair dinkum mate. When I see that S1, the streamlined Hudson and PRR 3768, actually virtually everything from the East, especially giants NYC and PRR I simply do not understand. Been a harsh long cold snow packed exhausting winter...perhaps cabin fever setting in but I can see little justification and reasoning for eating your own. Heard the rationale and assorted nonsense too many times, just waive it off. We know about these things but will be the last bunch to understand or care. Lost the Budd company too!, incredible really. Thankfully we have a Royal Hudson and a CNR 6400 series still. Lost a lot lately personally ...gettin' to me.
M636C-- Fair dinkum mate. When I see that S1, the streamlined Hudson and PRR 3768, actually virtually everything from the East, especially giants NYC and PRR I simply do not understand. Been a harsh long cold snow packed exhausting winter...perhaps cabin fever setting in but I can see little justification and reasoning for eating your own. Heard the rationale and assorted nonsense too many times, just waive it off. We know about these things but will be the last bunch to understand or care. Lost the Budd company too!, incredible really. Thankfully we have a Royal Hudson and a CNR 6400 series still.
Lost a lot lately personally ...gettin' to me.
M636CThere is an EMD E-6 much like the E-4 displayed in 1940.
If I remember correctly, and somewhat heartbreakingly, GM kept the originals long enough to display at the '64='65 followup Fair after they took them in trade ... then scrapped them afterward.
Miningman Give yourself a break from the world and read that PDF file from the New York Central Brochure on their Ottawa Line. The prose is terrific.
Give yourself a break from the world and read that PDF file from the New York Central Brochure on their Ottawa Line. The prose is terrific.
It's definitely prosy enough to sample it some!
quote user="Miningman"]
Give yourself a break from the world and read that PDF file from the New York Central Brochure on their Ottawa Line. The prose is terrific. The New York Central really knew how to run their passenger service and run it well.
I love the section where they state how little known the areas where and that it was a true underused treasure. It pretty much stayed that way, although the Thousand Island area is well known. Extremely interesting border running through the Thousand Islands. Amazing stuff.
As for the Train Fair video....how on Gods green earth did we scrap everything we see...a pinnacle of human achievement...it is tragic, plain stupid, heartless, wasteful, short sighted and most of all shameful.
Rationalize and justify all you want....baloney pure and simple. Stinky rotten infested baloney at that.
[/quote]
The World's Fair was seventy nine years ago....
And not quite everything has gone:
The exhibits from the B&O Museum, including the "Atlantic" and the replica "Tom Thumb" are still there. The "Duchess of Hamilton" has been restored to its 1939 appearance and is capable of being restored to operation.
I'm pretty sure the Italian streamlined electric set has been preserved, although the Italian diesel car has gone.
That doesn't mean I'm not sorry that the S-1 has gone nor all the NYC Hudsons. There is a PRR K-4 but not quite like 3768.
There was a CPR Royal Hudson and a CNR U-4 there both of which have representatives retained.
There is an EMD E-6 much like the E-4 displayed in 1940.
If someone wanted an 80th anniversary rail exhibition to recreate the rail display at the World's Fair, quite a lot could be provided, although it would cost a lot to bring the international items...
Not everything can be kept
Thanks Wanswheel! You know, looking at the "America's Railroads" exhibit I can't help but wonder if there's a young Dave Klepper running loose there with his frantic parents trying to catch him!
Thank God for color movie film! Isn't it wonderful? Those images look like they could have been shot yesterday!
Meanwhile at the New York World's Fair...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWoSq2HOJ14&t=44m10s
wjstix...Remember too that before NAFTA in the 1990's there wasn't as much freight crossing the border.
Probably true, as at one time, we produced almost everything we needed or wanted...well, maybe not bananas and oranges.
We did bring a lot of coal up here, though, especially to feed the steel mills in Hamilton. In the shipping season, much of it came in boats, although today's lake shipping season extends longer than it did in the past.
Wayne
Miningman Brochure, 1902Source: www.archive.org
Brochure, 1902Source: www.archive.org
https://archive.org/details/toottawaontariov00newy
I suspect there really wasn't much of a change, or anything terribly exciting, that happened during 1939-41 regarding US rail lines running into Canada (or vice-versa, remember the CN mainline across northern Minnesota for example). Every freight car moving from the US to Canada or Canada to the US had to go through customs at the border anyway, which required a detailed listing of all the freight in each car in order to be cleared to enter. Much less James Bond thrills and chills and more good old fashioned dull paperwork.
Remember too that before NAFTA in the 1990's there wasn't as much freight crossing the border.
NYC Fairbanks Morse H20-44 #7107 operating in the Ottawa Yard, today the site of Highway 417 – Source: March 1993 issue of Branchline Magazine
That New York Central Line crossed the St. Lawrence on twin spans at Cornwall, Ontario from Upper New York State. The last span came down in 1965. Cornwall was a significant enough town but the line all the way up to Ottawa from that point went through the most insignificant backwater hillbilly territory you can dream of.
The Central was very very proud of this line, and they had their own station in Ottawa all along, another low key not well known thing although they did use Ottawa Union Station as well. They ran passenger service quite late into the game on this line. I think the stories continue well into the Cold War era starting with the Soviet cipher clerk , the Gouzenko defection.
CSX still uses some of the the track Stateside and a good portion of it is the Adirondack Scenic Railway.
It is very upsetting and disheartening to see the abandoned right of way all the way up. Makes me sick.
As you can see from the picture they assiged FM power to this line when the steam was done.
But...check this out!
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