Dave- Q? How on earth do you recall all of this in such detail? It's amazing really. I took many rail trips but going back that far it's all a blur...there are certain snippets I remember of course ..same with your outstanding detailed recollection of streetcar routes throughout the land. One lucky fella I tell you!
Only time I ever had an upper was in 2004 on the Empire State Express and the track was so rough East of Cleveland that I was almost thrown out and was hanging on like crazy several times, all that in the middle of the night. That's about all I recall abd that wasn't that long ago!
It was quite a trick to dress and undress in an upper berth! The wise upper-berth traveler packed presentable pajamas and did the change in the lounge section of the men's restroom, which was large enough for the purpose with the sink located there, and the facility itself in a closet-like annex. It was also the location where one could smoke when the car was made up for day service and no smoking permitted in the open sections.
The last time I enjoyed the privilege of sleeping in an upper berth was one on the narrow gauge Newfie Bullet on a Kleibolt arranged excursion from Chicago around November 1967. Used an upper going to St. Johns and a lower returning. On the Ocean Limited both ways and on the International both ways, roomettes. Parlor seats bettwen Toronto and Montreal.
Used lower berths going to and from summer camp as a youngster 1938 - 1943. 1944 and 1945 wartime restrictions made coach travel mandatory. 1948 again a lower berth going. Business travel usually meant roomettes, but did use the New Haven's dollar-saver-sleeper lower berths on occasion between Boston and New York, including the first leg of my first trip to Israel in March 1960 (Air France 707 to Paris, rail to Rome, El Al Brittania to Lod Airport.)
wjstix Re "berths" I mixed up terms, sorry. Berths are indeed beds; a typical "section" had two berths, upper and lower. Most travellers paying for a berth would have been in an open section. For example, according to my old Walthers "Passenger Car Plans" book, the heavyweight GN Empire Builder would typically have as it's full sleeping cars a 16-section "tourist" sleeper, a 14-section sleeper, a "12-and-1" (12 open sections, one drawing room), and an 8-1-2 (8 sections, 1 drawing room, 2 compartments) sleeper. So for these four you'd have 50 open sections, each with two berths, so 100 total; then two drawing rooms and two compartments. (I believe the Solarium Observation car would add several compartments and or drawing rooms.) The Summer 2017 Mainstreeter (Northern Pacific Hist. Soc. magazine) has an article by Mike Martin called "MacFarlane's Gamble", referring to the risk NP took by spending a lot of money to upgrade the post-war North Coast Limited to a streamliner. A couple of interesting points: "(T)he Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road competed with the Northern Pacific for the Chicago - Twin Cities - Seattle passenger market." "Because rates were tightly regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission, all fares were about equal...and by gentleman's agreement, all three competitors operated on an admittedly slow 45-hour schedule between St.Paul and Seattle." "All three railroads had a flagship train plus a secondary mail train over their respective transcontinental routes." "All three operated their trains with generally heavyweight equipment and steam power." He notes that after WW2, GN and the Milwaukee upgraded to a 39-1/2 hour schedule, that required the NP to decide if it wanted to upgrade and compete or not. Found this cutaway of a 1920 Pullman car - note towards the middle the open sections on the far side are made up for sleeping, with curtains available for privacy for the berths - no walls. http://www.railswest.com/images/CAR1920.jpg
Re "berths" I mixed up terms, sorry. Berths are indeed beds; a typical "section" had two berths, upper and lower. Most travellers paying for a berth would have been in an open section.
For example, according to my old Walthers "Passenger Car Plans" book, the heavyweight GN Empire Builder would typically have as it's full sleeping cars a 16-section "tourist" sleeper, a 14-section sleeper, a "12-and-1" (12 open sections, one drawing room), and an 8-1-2 (8 sections, 1 drawing room, 2 compartments) sleeper. So for these four you'd have 50 open sections, each with two berths, so 100 total; then two drawing rooms and two compartments. (I believe the Solarium Observation car would add several compartments and or drawing rooms.)
The Summer 2017 Mainstreeter (Northern Pacific Hist. Soc. magazine) has an article by Mike Martin called "MacFarlane's Gamble", referring to the risk NP took by spending a lot of money to upgrade the post-war North Coast Limited to a streamliner. A couple of interesting points:
"(T)he Great Northern and the Milwaukee Road competed with the Northern Pacific for the Chicago - Twin Cities - Seattle passenger market." "Because rates were tightly regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission, all fares were about equal...and by gentleman's agreement, all three competitors operated on an admittedly slow 45-hour schedule between St.Paul and Seattle."
"All three railroads had a flagship train plus a secondary mail train over their respective transcontinental routes." "All three operated their trains with generally heavyweight equipment and steam power."
He notes that after WW2, GN and the Milwaukee upgraded to a 39-1/2 hour schedule, that required the NP to decide if it wanted to upgrade and compete or not.
Found this cutaway of a 1920 Pullman car - note towards the middle the open sections on the far side are made up for sleeping, with curtains available for privacy for the berths - no walls.
http://www.railswest.com/images/CAR1920.jpg
There were a few cars that four private sections in each car--these sections were enclosed, and apparently had curtains-and each of these sections had its washroom right next to it. These were rebuilt from 16 section cars. These rebuilds had 8 open sections along with the private sections; each washroom occupied the space of a section.
Four were rebuilt for the Crescent Limited, and were renamed for famous Southerners. Sixteen more were rebuilt for other services, and were all renamed in the Dale series. (Plan 3412-H)
Another variation was 12 open section and 4 enclosed sections; these had two sections at each end that had walls and a sliding door to separate them the aisle. The passengers in thsee berths used the same washrooms that those in the open sections used. The berths were narrower than usual. I doubt that porters enjoyed making these berths down. (Plain 3412-J)
Incidentally, The first City of Portland had one car with enclosed sections.
Of course, uppers were not as convenient as lowers--so the cost of an ipper was lower because it was higher, and the cost of a lower was higher because it was lower.
(Jeff and Paul North, I could not resist the temptation to make that last remark.)
Johnny
wjstixHe notes that after WW2, GN and the Milwaukee upgraded to a 39-1/2 hour schedule
In the 1950s GN got down to... 42 hours? Chicago-Seattle. Don't think MILW ever matched that-- in 1952 NP reduced to 46-47 hours.
timzWonder how many trains got wyed in Chicago-- and where. Why don't we see pics of that?
I would venture most all trains that originated and terminated in Chicago got turned, however, they got turned by Yard Crews in the process of dissembling the inbound train and assembling the outbound train. In some cases the Yard Crew would move the inbound train to the Coach Yard and the Outbound train to the station. In other cases the Inbound Road Crew would move the train to the Coach Yard and the Outbound Crew would move the train from the Coach Yard to the station and at the scheduled departure time take the train toward destination.
I suspect we don't see many pictures of these operations because most photogs of the time dismissed 'yard moves' as beneath their 'artistic integrety' and never took pictures of these moves.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
timz Wonder how many trains got wyed in Chicago-- and where. Why don't we see pics of that?
Wonder how many trains got wyed in Chicago-- and where. Why don't we see pics of that?
daveklepperIf I recall, on the 20th Century, the private rooms were on the left, westbound, and on the right, eastbound, to optimize occupants' views of the Hudson.
That would be correct, if Hungerford and "Flight of the Century" are accurate on the subject. Not sure if consists on other Great Steel Fleet trains were turned for the 'view'.
After a little more research, I believe that it may have possible for the two to have traveled in a double bedroom from Seattle to Chicago, as Pullman was rebuilding cars to include double bedrooms about 1933. I do not have a Guide for 1934, but the November, 1937 issue that I have shows that the GN, NP, and Milwaukee all had at least one car with double bedrooms on their Seattle-Chiago trains. As I noted in an earlier post each of these bedrooms (five double bedrooms and eight sections in each car) had a seat, that was transverse to the side of the car, which became the lower berth and the upper berth was above it. There was also a washbasin and a toilet in each room.
Each train also had a car with ten sections, two compartments, and a drawing room.
If I recall, on the 20th Century, the private rooms were on the left, westbound, and on the right, eastbound, to optimize occupants' views of the Hudson. I think this was true both before and after 1938's intorduction of lightweight equipment.
The most common heavyweight Pullman in the 1920s was the 12 section 1 drawing room car (12-1). Some of the higher-end trains were equipped with a few 10 section, 2 compartment, 1 Drawing room cars (10-2-1 in Pullman-speak). All room Pullmans, or even Pullmans with more than the three private rooms in a 10-2-1 were just about unheard of even on the plushest trains in the 1920s. 12-1 cars outnumbered 10-2-1 cars by about a ten to one margin.
All of the private rooms were on one side of the car. By preference they were usually set up so the rooms were on the right in the direction of travel on railroads with double track sections, but they could run either way.
wjstix Foolster41 So, trains with a door (Usually with a window) into a hallway with two facing benches wasn't a thing in US trains? That's what I was picturing. That might be more a european train thing maybe. Yup, very European / British. Foolster41 A berth room would work just as well. I wanted somewhere they knew they could get privacy (because of the transformation). Having a room that they'd possibly have to share with someone else wouldn't really work, so mabye they'd have to get both beds. Berths aren't rooms. They're open sections. The only divider is when the seats are made up into beds, there'd be a curtain that could be pulled across for privacy. In old movies, that made for lots of wacky hi-jinks. Guy A goes down to the men's room to brush his teeth, miscalculates where he is on way back and climbs into bed with a strange woman just as her husband shows up etc. This pic shows a Pullman Porter making up the beds on the left; the sections on the right are still in daytime mode. http://www.railswest.com/images/pullmanportermkgbednyc.jpg
Foolster41 So, trains with a door (Usually with a window) into a hallway with two facing benches wasn't a thing in US trains? That's what I was picturing. That might be more a european train thing maybe.
So, trains with a door (Usually with a window) into a hallway with two facing benches wasn't a thing in US trains? That's what I was picturing. That might be more a european train thing maybe.
Yup, very European / British.
Foolster41 A berth room would work just as well. I wanted somewhere they knew they could get privacy (because of the transformation). Having a room that they'd possibly have to share with someone else wouldn't really work, so mabye they'd have to get both beds.
A berth room would work just as well. I wanted somewhere they knew they could get privacy (because of the transformation). Having a room that they'd possibly have to share with someone else wouldn't really work, so mabye they'd have to get both beds.
Berths aren't rooms. They're open sections. The only divider is when the seats are made up into beds, there'd be a curtain that could be pulled across for privacy. In old movies, that made for lots of wacky hi-jinks. Guy A goes down to the men's room to brush his teeth, miscalculates where he is on way back and climbs into bed with a strange woman just as her husband shows up etc.
This pic shows a Pullman Porter making up the beds on the left; the sections on the right are still in daytime mode.
http://www.railswest.com/images/pullmanportermkgbednyc.jpg
The berths (or beds) in the single bedrooms were like the sofas in the drawing rooms, except that they were transverse to the side of the car, and the lower berths in the double bedrooms were also like that. The upper berths in the double bedrooms was also transverse to the side of the car.
I may be mistaken, but I believe that the only tw0-berth private rooms in use on the trains to Seattle at the time of the story were compartments--and the cars were heavyweight.
In my opinion, the two characters have about zero chance of making it three days, with the making up, security, and taking down of open sections, with the girl turning into a bird periodically (perhaps uncontrollably?) especially if the 'alchemist' gets to the porters with his story about an escaped pet bird on the car somewhere, and a reward for its capture (a quick grab through the curtains at almost any time!) and subsequent caging.
I am wondering if going back to his original premise, either riding or 'stowing away on' a private or business car, might not be more appropriate, or advance the plot better.When a Pullman car was converted to a private business car in Chicago, would it ride west to its 'new home' with no more than a riding maintainer?
CSSHEGEWISCH Deggesty I know of no private rooms that had windows on the aisle side in this country. I don't know about Viewliners, but the bedrooms in Superliners have a large window in the sliding door that allows you to see across the aisle when the curtain is pulled back.
Deggesty I know of no private rooms that had windows on the aisle side in this country.
I know of no private rooms that had windows on the aisle side in this country.
I was thinking about the Pullman cars which were in use back then.
Foolster41So it'd cost around $177.56?
I think I'm picturing trains from british movies/tv shows.
That diagram is exactly the sortof thing I was looking for, Googling I was having trouble finding something like that.
Agan, thanks for all the help!
If you bought a private room in a sleeper in this country, you did not have to share it with a stranger; the entire room was yours for the trip. The same holds now with Amtrak accommodations. If you bought only a lower berth, someone else may occupy the upper berth (and if you bought only an upper, someone else may well occupy the lower)
Explanation of the Pullman Section sleepers
http://www.museumoftheamericanrailroad.org/Exhibits/PullmanCollection/tabid/95/galleryType/SlideShow/ItemID/151/AlbumID/21/Default.aspx
Diagram of a 6 bedroom lounge car
So, trains with a door (Usually with a window) into a hallway with two facing benches wasn't a thing in US trains? That's what I was picturing. That might be more a european train thing maybe.A berth room would work just as well. I wanted somewhere they knew they could get privacy (because of the transformation). Having a room that they'd possibly have to share with someone else wouldn't really work, so mabye they'd have to get both beds.
@Timz: So it'd cost around $177.56?
In 1935 a compartment for two people Chicago to San Francisco or Los Angeles cost $66.53 per person plus $44.50 for the compartment.
The price of a lower was the same, no matter how many slept in it. Likewise, the price of an upper was the same. Two boys probably would not have been crowded.
Remember that the standard berth occupancy on troop trains was two to a lower and one to an upper
wjstix OK, if they're just travelling in a Pullman sleeper, not a private car, they'd probably just get berths, not a private compartment / room. Pullman car primarily had open sections - pairs of seats facing each other. The backs folded forward to create one berth, and the other was pulled down from it's suspension up above. (If you've seen the movie "Some Like It Hot", it has some good interior scenes in a heavyweight Pullman.) The kids could sit together during the day, then one use the upper berth and one the lower. Not sure of the exact cost, but would be a lot less than a stateroom / compartment / drawing room. Some railroads, like Great Northern, had some Pullman "tourist sleepers" that were a bit less fancy - and less expensive - than the normal Pullman cars.
OK, if they're just travelling in a Pullman sleeper, not a private car, they'd probably just get berths, not a private compartment / room. Pullman car primarily had open sections - pairs of seats facing each other. The backs folded forward to create one berth, and the other was pulled down from it's suspension up above. (If you've seen the movie "Some Like It Hot", it has some good interior scenes in a heavyweight Pullman.)
The kids could sit together during the day, then one use the upper berth and one the lower. Not sure of the exact cost, but would be a lot less than a stateroom / compartment / drawing room. Some railroads, like Great Northern, had some Pullman "tourist sleepers" that were a bit less fancy - and less expensive - than the normal Pullman cars.
I don't know if this was still the situation in the 1930s, but in the early days, the Pullman lower berth was sold for 2 passengers, and the upper berth for 1 passenger. The 2 boys would have shared the lower berth, and the upper sold to some one else.
In a Pullman section, just as in Amtrak roomettes, the part of the seat on which you sat was pulled away from the back, and the back of the seat dropped down to form one half of the berth--and the same action was performed on the facing seat. Then a mattress was taken down from where it was stowed in the upper berth. This was a real mattress, not a thin pad such as is used in Amtrak roomettes. The porter would bring you a ladder when you wanted to get up to, or down from, the upper berth.
In 1930, a compartment was essentially an enclosed section that had more floor space than a section--and had a toilet and a washbasin in the same room and a ladder. A drawing room also had two berths arranged in the same way (and with a ladder), plus a sofa with a back that swung down to provide a third berth--and the toilet was enclosed in an annex.
The cars that were rebuilt with bedrooms (for two) in the thirties had the berths at a right angle to the sides of the cars, and the lower berth was essentially a sofa seat during the day, I believe. These rooms also had the toilet in the room itself.
When the car builders began building lightweight sleepers, the section berths were essentailly the same, though in the fifties new cars had a folding ladder by each upper berth so it was no longer necesary to ring for the porter when the passenger wanted to get up to or down from the upper berth. also, the bedrooms and compartments in thse new cars had the toilet in an annex, just as the drawing rooms did. Some bedrooms were built with two chairs for day use and the bed swung down from the wall for the lower berth (just as it did in a real roomette). Other bedrooms had a transverse sofa seat which became the lower berth when the back was folded down. A real roomette had a berth that swung down from the wall, covering the seat and the toilet seat. Some washbasins had to be swung up and out of the way of the berth. At first all such roomettes required that you zip a curtain hanging in the doorway shut and back out into the aisle to get the berth down or up; later at least one builder cut a portion of the side the berth away at the foot so you could stand there alower or raise the berth. Once the bert was down, you could close the door and secure it for the nightj.
I know of two variations on the sections in heavyweight cars. One was the enclosed section, which had real walls between the berths and the aisle. The other was the private section, which was an enclosed section--and there was a washroom assigned to each of these sections. Not many of these cars were built.
What was called a "compartment" in the US had two beds, but not two facing bench seats. One bed became a bench seat and the other passenger had a chair during the day. Dunno how common double bedrooms were in 1934-- that would be two beds, one bench seat and no extra chair-- a little less room and a slightly lower charge.
As I recall the Chicago-California fare in a compartment was a bit lower in 1934 than it had been before 1932-- maybe ditto Chicago-Seattle.
I hope it's alright to bump this after so long, rather than makihng a new topic.
I refound this when I picked this story back up recently.
I feel I should note, when I said "private car" I meant private booth/compartment (Two benches with a door to the hall). Sorry for the confusion.
Also, thanks again for the infromation. What I have is:
Two kids hire a simple compartment for $160. The trip takes about 3 days, leaving evening and arriving in the morning on the final day.
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