I started this, because this issue of Classic Trains, pg 39 talks about open platformed coaches used in 1946 as suburban cars on the Burlington. It seems to imply this continued until the adaption of the bilevels. I was a child of 4 in 1956 La Grange, living one block off the CB&Q line and a train nut. I was there as they began introducing the bilevels. What the CB&Q used were coaches, but not open platformed. I never saw any of those. They were standard coaches, a find of forest green with a tan line along the windows. I even rode on these cars to Chicago rather often with my mom and sisters for shopping and I would always protest having to sit in those cars when there were bilevels around (which were considered very cool). The interior of those coaches had bench seats of leather or leather-like upholstery of a sienna brown - not rattan. I never saw any rattan seats on the CB&Q. Perhaps, Pinkepank is referring to much older cars already phased out by say, 1950. Such cars, however did not exist in the 50s on suburban CB&Q commuter trains.
My search of the web only turned up this picture of one of the old commuter cars. The window color, as I remember it, was a lighter tan, but there were the ivory or gold pinstripes around it. This was the standard pre-bilevel commuter car on the CB&Q in the 50s.http://www.flickr.com/photos/45436499@N02/8388063438/
First and Fastest, the magazine of the Shore Line Historical Society, did an in-depth article about the CB&Q's transition a couple of years ago. There was some overlap of the open-platform cars with the bilevels, and some overlap with steam including at least a few instances of bilevels operating behind steam. The article also covers the coaches you mentioned.
I will see if I can find it. However, I don't remember EVER seeing an open platform car on the CB&Q commuter trains - that's the point. As I said, as a kid, I lived only a block away from the tracks and often was in my front yard or down at the end of the block watching the trains. That would have been a real and memorable trainspotting event. I tried to post a link here to the only photo I could find on line of the old CB&Q coaches. By 1956, A typical CB&Q commuter train was usually a silver E7 followed by a majority of the Kelly green and tan and silver roofed coaches with one or two bilevels in the train. This was particularly true at the commuter hours of before 9 am and after 4 pm. You could usually see long trains of 8 or 10 coaches and one or two of the bilevels. It was considered 'a big deal' to see a train that was mostly bilevels.
Bilevels were introduced about seven years before the end of steam in suburban service but replaced open platform cars within a year. But it was not only bilevels that replaced them, but also steel standard coaches replaced in long distance service by new stainless steel Budd-built coaches.
Again, I lived from Jan 1956 to Jan 1959 along the CB&Q tracks - less than one block off on Spring Ave. in LaGrange. In January 1959, we moved to Naperville. In both La Grange and Naperville, my dad used to regularly take the Burlington commuters to Chicago, my mom also used to take us kids into Chicago for shopping. In 1958, I was in first grade and went to St. Francis Xaxier school, which was across the tracks, so I walked over them twice a day. I say this so you can google, if you like, how close I was to the line. Being a little train fanatic at the time, I watched with great interest what was happening on the CB&Q. It was also in 1957 or 58 that the Disney movie 'The Great Locomotive Chase' and the TV show Casey Jones came out. These were both big events with me then. If I could have seen an open platform passenger car on the CB&Q line in those days, it would have been a big thrill to me. The only ones I ever saw were the MOW cars that occasionally parked along the lines in La Grange (CB&Q MOW cars were painted orange back then). The intercity CB&Qs passenger trains were almost always solid stainless steel trains by the mid 50s. The commuters trains were mostly the closed platform Kelly green and tan coaches with small sections of bilevels on them. The coaches were gradually phased out so that by early 60s there were none left on the trains. I do not know where Classic Trains is getting this statement of 'open platform' CB&Q commuter cars from. Maybe they were on the CB&Q line in 1946, but they were not in the middle 50s - they were completely gone. Maybe other railroads were using them, but not the CB&Q. There was only one commuter line on the CB&Q out of Chicago it went to Aurora and every train had to pass my house to get back and forth. The interiors of the standard coaches were leather bench type seats - not rattan. I was an eyewitness to this - a regular eyewitness, not occasional.
I lived in Berwyn as a kid: I was walking distance to the open field on the north side of the tracks that Burlington later used to build a freight house; where the IC tracks went up and over the 3-track racetrack. I never saw an open platform coach on a commuter train. Just the closed ones pictured and the bi-levels. Both steam and diesel. But here's the trade off: If you rode a commuter train into Aurora, there were most certainly open platforms parked in the yard there. Any trains that they went on were not trains scheduled at times when a young man such as myself was able to be at trackside.
Exactly, my new friend! We were there. There were NO open platform passenger cars on commuter trains at least from 1956 on. Thank you.
Corroborating my own post above and those following, I lived in LaGrange the summer of 1952 for my summer job with EMD. I saw plenty of CB&Q commuter trains, and did once ride behind steam in a bilevel train. I can state definitely that there were zero open-platform cars in the suburban service in the summer of 1952. The majority of cars were the green and tan standard steel coaches, downgraded from long-distance service and posibly remodeled with higher-capacity seating. Converted coaches with arch roofs provided head-end power for the Budd gallery cars, and the standard coaches were still with seam heat. The E-units were still in the same pool as the long-distance trains, and in addition to steam, Pacifics, a GP-7 would occasionally power a shorter commuter train. Including the one with two galleries when I got off the Trail Blazer from NYC to and bought a CB&Q tickedt to go to LaGrange.
I once sas a prairie, a 2-6-2, on a local freight. Most were 2-8-2-s on local freights, O-4 4-8-4's or F-units on other freights. Long-distance passenger trains drew diesels, very seldom if ever, steam..
When I lived in Westmount and worked mostly iin Downers Grove 1967-1970, the E-units handled all suburban trains, I think all with head-end power capability, and all suburban trains were gallery cars with cab-cars for push-pull operation. These E-unis were separate from those handling the remaining long-distance trains. I also did ride occasionally 1957-1967 on visits to Downers Grove, a period that saw the last of the conventional coaches removed and the conversion to head-end power and push-pull operation.
i see stuff even today that is not standard for the local trains. in railroading I have learned never say never.
interesting, what non-standard trains do you see?
a few days ago the ringling brother train. a unique private passenger train that hauls live stock and freight pulled by former up sd40 that were painted in a historic speedway to sunshine red and yellow with black cats whisker on their noses.
One of my best memories of La Grange was going to an EMD open house in 1957 (I think). They had an Aero train parked in the locomotive lot that was the highlight of highlights my tour there. I thought the plant floor where they built the engines was heaven and remember seeing a GP7 or 9 superstructure on an overhead crane above the motor and chassis. It was truly a spectacular place for a 4 or 5 year old train nut.
I won't ever say you will never see something unusual, only that the usual trains in commuter service on the CB&Q in the late 50s did not include open platform coaches, but did routinely and even in the main, have the standard coaches of Kelly green and light tan. It is the routine 'usual' that makes the 'unusual' unusual. There is nearly nothing more routine and usual than commuter trains. The hilevels were the exotic and exciting things on those trains - to me at that time, anyway.
I went back in the files and found the First and Fastest article, which was Spring 2007 (a couple of years ago...). The open platform cars in the 7100 series were built between 1928 and 1930 in CB&Q's Aurora shops. Aurora Shops rebuilt them into the 7100 series single level cars with vestibles you remember, so the overlap in operation may have been only in 1950 and 1951. Paint scheme was the result of a contest.
Notes from the article: Bilevel cars as built were steam heated, with propane powered AC, and 72 volt lights which required a power car for more than two of them (otherwise tapped off the locomotive). 6100 series cars were rebuilt from former long-haul coaches, 7200 and 7300 cars were coach/power and coach/baggage/power. First push-pull operation of bilevels in 1965, cars later converted to HEP.
I tried to find that article at First and Fastest, but gave up at 2009. 2007 is a wee tad more than a couple of years. I will try and see if I can get a copy of it. So you are saying they enclosed the open platforms? I know the Kelly green commuter coaches did not have the same look of 'massiveness' of regular passenger cars. Even at a young age, I could distinguish that. These single level coaches were a regular feature, and I mean on nearly every train, right up until 1959 while the bilevels were the exotic cars on those trains. The bilevels only started becoming the norm on the commuter trains after 1960 at which time, the old single levels now became the 'exotic' nostalgic car on the commuter trains.I also noticed in this month's Walthers catalogue, they are saying it was Northwestern that originated the bilevels! The misinformation goes on and on!
rcdrye First push-pull operation of bilevels in 1965, cars later converted to HEP.
First push-pull operation of bilevels in 1965, cars later converted to HEP.
Rob, I am glad you clarified that point. I commuted on the Q to Cicero from Fairview Ave. in Downers Grove in 1959 and then from Naperville in 1960-62 and didn't remember for sure, but thought none of the trains operated push-pull with bilevel cab cars in those years.
Mark
Right push-pulls was in the middle of the 60s. All were pulled before then.
1967 all or nearly all push-pull
CB&Q had "heavyweights" that were both converted open-platform and converted long-haul. Both types seemed to have lasted until the mid 1960s. All of them were fitted with "ice" air-conditioning, where blocks of ice were put in bunkers under the cars for fans to blow across. This is not such a crazy idea as it seems as the Railway Express reefers ice dock was near the CB&Q's coach yard, so ice was easily available.
C&NW does get credit for originating push-pull in 1958. The first C&NW bilevels came in 1955. C&NW bilevels operated behind steam in 1955 and 1956. SP also had bilevels in the 1950s, which occasionally ran behind steam, but never operated them push-pull prior to Caltrain. The other bilevel operators, CMStP&P and CRI&P, got theirs in the 1960s, and ran push-pull from the beginning.
The spring 2007 issue is still available from http://www.shore-line.org/Back_Issues.lasso
rcdrye CB&Q had "heavyweights" that were both converted open-platform and converted long-haul. Both types seemed to have lasted until the mid 1960s. All of them were fitted with "ice" air-conditioning, where blocks of ice were put in bunkers under the cars for fans to blow across. This is not such a crazy idea as it seems as the Railway Express reefers ice dock was near the CB&Q's coach yard, so ice was easily available. C&NW does get credit for originating push-pull in 1958. The first C&NW bilevels came in 1955. C&NW bilevels operated behind steam in 1955 and 1956. SP also had bilevels in the 1950s, which occasionally ran behind steam, but never operated them push-pull prior to Caltrain. The other bilevel operators, CMStP&P and CRI&P, got theirs in the 1960s, and ran push-pull from the beginning. The spring 2007 issue is still available from http://www.shore-line.org/Back_Issues.lasso
Regading ice air-condiioning, nearly all heavyweight Pullmans of all types had this mode of air-conditioning by the mid=30s, and the C&O, B&O, AT&SF had most long-distance coaches air-conditioned this way. Other railroads as well. And they and the Southern and others had dining cars air-conditioned this way.
In 1952 I did not notice any differences between suburban coaches converted from long-distance coaches and those converted from open-platform coaches. Were there differences?
You really should answer the transit cars on railroads question. You have more detailed information on four of the operations than I do! And I hope you will provide the details as well as answering the question.
Did the Milwaukee ever use open-platform suburban cars? In 1952 it was the only suburban operaton I did not ride or see in operation. The C&WI with its Erie-design Stillwells was the other I did not ride, but I did see it. None that I saw or rode used open-platform coaches in 1952. Gobs of "gate-cars" on the "L" though!
Based on a few photos that I took from Roosevelt Rd and Congress Park in 1969, Burlington's suburban trains were a mix of HEP from the locomotive or from a converted heavyweight coach. Not all trains were push-pulls and I do remember inbound suburban trains being pulled by an E.
I think by Spring 1970 they were all getting power from locomotives. But there may have been some trains that were not push-pulls. Most were, though.
In 1952 the Boston and Maine still has gobs of steel-framed wood opep-platform coaches in service, mostly in suburban service out of Boston, some on branches. The Delaware and Hudson still used steel open-platform coaches (wotj roller bearings) on its Carbondale - Scranton local in the summer of 1950. But the steel New Haven open-platform MUs had been retired by infusion of the Pullman-built air-conditioned 4400-seeries "washboards."
I am not certain that t he "Wyatt Erps" used by a DL&W on the Boonton service are really open-platform coaches, since they do or did have end-posts, floor to ceiling, flanking the usual "train-door" location, without the train-door. They were still running in 1967!
this forum is an amazing wealth of information that keeps me coming back every chance I get which is not often enough. formerly rrandb
The CB&Q bilevels had 72 volt lights and steam heat even after push-pull operation started, as commuter locomotives were pooled with main line locomotives. As long as only two cars were used a tap off the engine's generator was enough fopr lighting. The heavyweight cars on one end of the consist contained a lighting generator for longer trains.
The easiest way to tell the difference between the ex-open platform cars and ex-long distance cars was that the former long distance cars had the A/C bulge on roof flanking the clerestory. The ex-open platform cars seem to have been rebuilt with internal ducts. Some but not all of the ex long-distance cars had six wheel trucks as well.
I think the power cars were gone by Spring1970, and last operated winter 1969-1970, with a segregated E-unit pool for suburban trains. Am I correct on this? Or did this wait until METRA? Or until Amtrak?
Open cars were used into the mid and late 1940's. 'I think' it was 1952 when the first bi-level cars arrived. They were displayed to the public at several locations between Chicago and Aurora. I recall touring them on the Berwyn siding where they were displayed for a few hours. Seems like it was a Saturday. Sixty year old memory but seem to recall there was an E-unit, a power car and two or three bi-levels. Consist went west to another public display that day.
Don't know when the E-units started supplying HEP. The generator cars were painted silver. In the 50's & early 60's a common weekend and night consist would be a generator car and one bi-level. At Aurora the E-unit would be turned on a turntable at the west end of the depot.
Other interesting recollections as viewed from the apartment I grew up in which overlooked the CB&Q between LaVergne and Berwyn was the setout of the REA Express loads in CB&Q high speed mail and express cars which were former Army troop sleepers. The last suburban train, originally a 2:15 AM departure and later when that train was discontinued the 1:15 AM departure from CUS. Train had three of these loads: one was set out at Berwyn, another at Downers Grove (I think) and another at Aurora. Sort of interesting to see a commuter train setting out a car. The process repeated itself in the late afternoon when a car was picked up at Riverside along with two other REA loads. At one time mail was loaded into a baggage car at Berwyn. A platform height ramp existed on the south track at about Wesley Avenue. US Mail trucks would backup to the car and load mail for 5 or 10 minutes. After WWII the Post Office used former military trucks to bring mail to the train. Somewhere there is a family pic of an E5 showing the mail loading.
Two other recollections were the rides from Berwyn to CUS and walking up the ramp into the station alongside the steam engines. The heat from the firebox and the smells of burning soft coal and valve oil, and the faces of the engineer and fireman are still remembered. One time we boarded our westbound train. The eastbound steam engine was still on the train. Seats had been flipped and faced west. Train crew advised the lights in the car would be going off for a short time. A west facing engine was added and the lights came back on. I never have read anything about the steam engines supplying car lighting electricity. My recollection is the cars were not well lit, probably fine for the time.
There were a couple of conventional equipped trains that made their first stop at Berwyn. Engineers would set the brakes in front of the apartment I lived in for the station stop about 1500/2000 feet distant. Brake shoe sparks were a sight especially in the winter months when it was dark out.
You meant open-platform cars. An open car usually refers to cross-bench open-sided cars, very popular at one time as trolley cars, but a few railroads had some also. The New Haven for one.
Most Chicago suburban service steam locomotives, nearly all, perhaps the PRR to Valpo being the one exception, had oversized steam electric generators to power lights (but not heat or air-conditioning) of the commuter coaches. Power cars were required for both the bilevels and the rehabbed long-distance coaches and closed-up rebuilt open-platform cars, which were air conditioned, and both bilevels and rebuilt single-level cars were used (not in the same train) with steam, also requiring generator cars, until steam was completely replaced in suburban service.
When were the last single-level rehabbed cars phased out?
I remember getting off the PRR Trailblazer from NY, renting one of the shower and change rooms that were availalbe in 1952, then going to my outbound train to LaGrange to report for work at EMD. And happy to see a train of two new bilevels with power car and one GP-7.
Power cars came in two varieties, monitor roof and high arched roof.
I had a rented furnished room near the Stone Avenue station.
Aside from railfanning and some EMD design work, my greatest pleasure were the Grant Park concerts, and much later in life got to design a new "shell" and sound system, but even that is 34 years ago.
Nice information. From age 4 to 6 I lived in La Grange on the first block of Spring Ave from the CB&Q tracks back around 55 - 58. As I said somewhere else, I was an avid train watcher back then. My mom would also take us kids into Chicago fairly often and my dad used the train to commute home from Chicago as well. I always tried to get on the Bilevels, because I thought they were so much better than the coaches. I had occasions to ride home on them (the single coaches) in the dark of winter, etc. and the lighting was kind of minimal in those coaches, as I remember them. Of course you could read, but it was by a kind of pale orange light. I don't remember the power cars at all. Were those baggage cars? I remember only the Es pulling the trains and it was one engine (occasionally 2, if a super long commuter train) and then the coaches. I believe baggage cars were used for newspapers thrown out at the stations on certain times of the day..
Except for the fact that they were painted silver, not green, cream, and tan, like the single-level commuter coaches, and often had visible smoke from the roof vent, the power cars, both arch-roof and monitor room, did look like baggage cars. Possibly there was space inside where they could also be used for newspaper delivery.
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