ALL:
I am starting a new post about Budd Rail Diesel Cars.
Did some of the RDC's have "walk-over" type seats (for commuter service) while others, such at the NP and GN cars, have reclining seats. If they have reclining seats, they could have been used on the Duluth to St. Paul or Minneapolis to Chicago runs (the latter as the :Blackhawk".
A question for historians---one Midwestern railroad had two RDC 4's that were modified. Name the railroad, what was special about those two cars and what their disposition? The correct answer get to start a new thread.
Ed Burns
Retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis
NP Eddie A question for historians---one Midwestern railroad had two RDC 4's that were modified. Name the railroad, what was special about those two cars and what their disposition? The correct answer get to start a new thread.
Minneapolis and Saint Louis bought a pair of RDC4's that were modified with a seating compartment (17 seats?) in the baggage end and were used to replace a gas-electric, hauling a silver painted boxcar as a storage mail car. They were not considered successful by M&St.L and were traded to Chesapeake and Ohio for several coal hoppers. C&O used them as a pair between Ashland and Elkhorn City KY, usually towing a heavyweight baggage car for express or mail storage. C&O also got M-K-T's only RDC, an RDC-3, and got all three of C&NW's (RDC-2 and two RDC-1s) in a swap for three 50-seat coaches.
B&O had RDC's with both types of seats, with the cars used for Daylight Speedliner service from Baltimore to Pittsburgh equipped with recliners. B&M, CN and CP Rail also used RDCs for fairly long-haul service and may have had some cars or sections so-equipped.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Rob:
You win!!! The MSTL received 32 coal hoppers in exchange for the two RDC's. I remember seeing a silver car (probably the RDC) backing out of the GN depot about 1958 or so.
As information, the MSTL's coal hoppers were in very shape. The NP received 12 or so empty hoppers for sugar beet service at East Grand Forks, MN. Out of 12, five were rejected at Minneapolis and sent back. One or two were rejected at East Grand Forks. One car was coming back empty to Minneapolis when it broke in two in a train. The rear of the train collided with the front half and a brakeman in the caboose was injured severely. He did return to work, but he was always bent over after the accident.
Next question to you.
This RDC operator hauled a propane boiler equipped streamlined coach on occasion behind its only RDC.
The Budd Cars---RDC class, were something else. I remember my father (NYC man) taking my brother and I on the "BeeLiners" as NYC referred to them in timetables, Albany to Poughkeepsie/Albany to Pittsfield and Boston/Albany to Utica, just to ride them!
Later on in my railroad days, I worked the Budds (as railroaders called them) between Croton-Harmon and Poughkeepsie, NY back in 1981. They were pretty beat up by then, at least some were 30 years old, and showed they were heavily used by NYC/PC/Conrail (running MTA commuter service by then). They had "flop-over" seats, no working toilets (!), open baggage areas on some of the duel bag/mail/coach cars---but they could fly. I worked single cars, and up to 3 Budds on these runs. The passengers liked them because they were 2 by 2 seating...not the 2 by 3 seating, one position seats (they did not "flop" and very hard seating), on the "bing-bangers" running on the Electric Div of the old NYC Hudson Div. The older MU's that NYC built in the late 50's-60's had the "flop-over' seats---the newer MU's that came in the early 70's had the hard seats.
The Budds I worked were transfer runs, connecting with MU's to and from the city...going to and from Croton to Poughkeepsie and back to Croton.
One thing I remember about my regulars...they always sat in the same seats every day, to and from. Occasionally, the Budds would be substitued by a FL-9 "Push-Pull" set of 2 old MTA (NYC) coaches, with FL-9's on both ends.
Another thing, you tried not to walk between the Budd cars going though tunnels, especially Breakneck, or your white shirt would turn "polka-dotted" from the engines' exhaust---hundreds of little oil polka dots on your nice white shirt!
NP Eddie, Santa Fe did use RDC's in its service between Los Angeles and San Diego until it had that horrific crash at Redondo Junction California in 1956 which ended Santa Fe's love affair with the RDC. I have heard that Santa Fe wanted to use RDC's in multiple units for all its passenger trains except for its key streamliners until this crash. If the crash hadn't happened I feel that RDC's could have changed passenger railroading in the United States. Diesel multiple units and Electric multiple units did save passenger service in many other parts of the world. Santa Fe could have operated RDC's with a two person crew to control costs. Western Pacific and Rock Island did operate RDC's in long distance service. If Santa Fe could have better controlled its passenger train costs in the 1950's with RDC's, it might have stayed out of Amtrak. I would like to throw this out for debate.
Jimbok, did you ever work the RDC shuttle running north from Brewster North? Or do you remember Conrail trying to provide through service by hauling one through RDC from Poughkeepsie behind an mu train of 1000's/1100's ("ac-mu's) between Croton-Harmon and GCT? and back? Problem was one of the two diesels had to continue to idle to produce air-conditioning and lights, and this smoke could not be tolerated. But then I am sure you remember the FL9 debacle, and my cousin Lester Klepper, may he rest..., was the lawyer for Restaurant Associates, operators of the Waldorf Astoria Hotel's main restaurant where waiters and patrons were complaining of a gas attack (from FL9 fumes).
I was a regular reverse commuter on the Harlem whle you were working the Hudson. I lived on E16 Manhattan with an office near the NWPlains station. I think a tower operator at NWP, John Kaplan?, now is a major official of New York and Atlantic, the private short line providing freight service on LIRR, connecting with CSX, CP, and Providence and Worcester at their Hell Gate Bridge Rt. junction, Fresh Pond, and with Cross Harbor at Bay Ridge, Brooklyn.
C&O bought a lot of orphaned RDCs from several roads. Katy's RDC-3 ended up in Canada on CN and went to VIA. It lost its baggage/mail compartments when it was rebuilt into an RDC-1. Around 1956 my grandmother took the Rock Island from Dallas to Enid, OK and somewhere along the way had to transfer to an RDC to complete her journey. Mabie a Rock Islander can help me out here?
Didn't the NYC try one outfitted with a jet engine? The Rio Grande had a custom built pair that ran on the Prospector but weren't successful if memory serves me well. I never purchased the book that was published on the RDCs. Anybody that can supply a good review of it would be welcome.
Trinity River Bottoms Boomer Didn't the NYC try one outfitted with a jet engine? The Rio Grande had a custom built pair that ran on the Prospector but weren't successful if memory serves me well. I never purchased the book that was published on the RDCs. Anybody that can supply a good review of it would be welcome.
New York Central's jet powered RDC was RDC3 M-497. Jimbok probably ran it at some point (after the jet engines came off, of course...) The Prospector cars were diesel-electrics built in 1941, quite different from the RDC design. Their power packages just couldn't take the D&RGW's profile.
"The RDC Story" is well written and complete up to its publication date in the late 1980s. Lots of good color photos.
My oops on the Katy's RDC-3. There's a nice picture of it in Canada in the RDC book.
So here's another question: Name three railroads that bought one RDC each had names that began with the same city. Two of their cars ended up on the companies parents, one on a connecting railroad (where it regularly operated into the same city).
I am stumped. I counted only seven roads that had only one RDC. My guess is that it was the DSSA that had the boiler equipped coach.
NP Eddie Rob: I am stumped. I counted only seven roads that had only one RDC. My guess is that it was the DSSA that had the boiler equipped coach. Ed Burns
That was the Chicago and Eastern Illinois, which had a single RDC-1. They equipped a P-S lightweight coach wit a propane boiler and a silver paint job for overflow riders.
rcdrye So here's another question: Name three railroads that bought one RDC each had names that began with the same city. Two of their cars ended up on the companies parents, one on a connecting railroad (where it regularly operated into the same city).
Would the three roads be the DSS&A, DW&P, and DM&IR?
Mark
KCSfan Would the three roads be the DSS&A, DW&P, and DM&IR? Mark
They would. DSS&A's RDC-1 ended up on CP (where it was no doubt destined all along), DW&P's D-301 ended up on CN, and DM&IR's ended up on NP.
Odd things:
DSS&A still offered baggage service (by truck) for the Marquette-St. Ignace Shoreliner
DW&P had the CN-style paint and logo only on the baggage end. CN painted the other end later. DW&P seems to have turned the car after every trip.
DSS&A and DW&P cars both lasted long enough to operate for VIA.
One of DM&IR's two RDC schedules allowed only 1 minute to change ends.
The one DMIR RDC had a regular locomotive engineers seat in the forward cab. At Winton, end of the line, the car was turned on a "Y" and stopped at Ely, Minnesota for a lunch break.
About 1960 or so, my Mother and I rode that car from their Endion (Duluth) station to Winton and back. On the return trip, I rode with the engineer in the cab.
What a ride and a lot of memories.
DM&IR's RDC ended up in Canada but never operated there. From NP/BN it passed to Amtrak, remained stored, and was sold as a parts supply to BC Rail in the early 1980s.
For another interesting question... Which railroad's first order of RDC-1s was equipped with steam lines for operation in conventional trains?
I would first choose B&O followed by Western Pacific then B&M and perhaps NH.
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The very first railroad to put RDC'S in service was the New York Central on the Boston and Albany, Nov 1949. I believe these very first RDC-1s were equipped with steam lines.
In the late 50' I rode many of the RDCs on PRSL from Camden, NJ to various points along both of routes east - most often to Williamstwon Jct, Ocean City, and Atlantic City.
daveklepper The very first railroad to put RDC'S in service was the New York Central on the Boston and Albany, Nov 1949. I believe these very first RDC-1s were equipped with steam lines.
NYC intended to use RDC's as spinoffs from ordinary trains. The only place this was regularly done was in Michigan where an Ann Arbor-Detroit car operated one way on the end of a regular MC/NYC train.
I would have the same question regarding RI's RDC's. One was attached at the rear of a mostly mail-and-express schedule south out of Kansas City and eventually completed the schedule running by itself after the mail-and-express cars terminated their part of the run.
Starting some time in 1965, NYC began running RDC's in suburban service into GCT attached to conventional suburban trains.
NYC's RDCs were equipped with steam lines as noted. But RDC's into GCT didn't use them. They ran behind mu's in the 1000 and 1100 series. One diesel was kept on idle to provide heat and light,,, or air condtioning power and light. (RDCs had two underfloor diesels.)
I also rode the PRSL Bud cars, though my rides were during the early/mid 70s. It seemed like a single car was good for about 80 mph max. I've clocked 85 on 2-3 car trains north of Tuckahoe and saw the speedometer hit 90 going through Berlin, NJ one labor day weekend! I think the maximum authorized speed was 70! On the 90mph trip, the engineer told me he had seen 115 firing an E6s.
I also rode the Reading Bud cars up to Pottsville out of Reading terminal a couple of times during that same time period. They ran two cars to Reading both times I rode. I think the train left Philly around 10am (one of perhaps half a dozen round trips on that line) and was well patronized. Upon arrival at Franklin Street station in Reading, a single car came down form Pottsville and I transferred to that car for the trip up the line. There was perhaps a two hour layover in Pottsville, during which a fellow washed down the outside of the car and swept out the interior. Even that mid-day shuttle seemed to have a decent passenger load. Septa killed that service, along with all the other non electric service, around 1980(?).
The last Buds I saw in service were on the B&O. I can still picture a trio spewing a magnificent plume of blue smoke as they accelerated east through the interlocking at East Brunswick, MD.
It was Feb 1968 when colleges had semester breaks. The B&M had announced they would cease the Budd car service from Springfield to Greenfield MA but would wait until that Sunday and the end of the winter breaks. I was covering the story both as a railfan and as a radio reporter for WACE in Springfield. I was able to get cab ride back from Greenfield and shortly after pulling out of Greenfield and doing the brake test the engineer opened the throttle and blocked my view of the speedometer. In a few minutes he turned to me and asked if I knew how fast we were going. I said about 70. He took his arm away from the speedometer and revealed almost 75. He then pulled the throttle lever to the left and added a pinch of air simultaneously announcing that would the fastest he'll ever go in his career as an engineer as the next day he was marked up for freight service.
1964 B&M ETT has 50 mph max speed between Springfield and Greenfield. Now being rebuilt for 79 mph.
RFPJohn, I think the SEPTA diesel service (RDCs) was shut down in 1983.
Thanks Northwest, I knew it was some time after I moved to Virginia (1977). I always meant to ride the Bethlehem branch and Newtown trains, but figured they'd be around forever. Oh well!
By the way, the B&O RDCs I referred to were in Marc train service in late '92 or early '93. Pretty ragged out by that time.
They still powered then, the diesels were not used solely for HEP?
MBTA "neutered" theirs in this way, and may have removed the engine pod on others.
The Marc RDCs were still self powered at that time. I don't recall them ever being used with locomotives.
There were also FP10 powered consists with smooth sided (ex-PRR?) coaches and, for a short time they had some former Chicago Metra E8s in service. VRE services in Virginia started with former MBTA RDCs dehumped and made over into non-powered coaches. They actually looked pretty classy, I thought!
Oh, it was VRE who dehumped RDCs. Thanks. True, they look pretty good, although I was disconcerted upon first sight until I discovered their ancestry.
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