Was there any difference between a coach and a chair car? It seems some parts of the country used one term over the other.
Ed Burns
Happily Retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis
I think we did this topic not too long ago. I ventured that a chair car was another name for a lounge or parlor car in that there were chairs and sofas. Coaches refer to an aisled car usually with a series of seats facing either forward or backward with 2 seats on parallel sides of the aisle. But there are are some commuter cars which have 3 on one side and 2 on the other. I am sure there are 1 and 2, and other arrangements somewhere. Chair and or Parlor cars also might also be extra fare cars. Chair cars may also refer to parlor cars not attributed to the Pullman Co. or its cars....and may refer to cars with only chairs and not a drink and snack service. bar.
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As I understand it, some railroads used the term chair car to describe their most comfortable and luxurious coaches, referring to the cheaper seats as coaches.
Chair cars typically had seats that reclined, and had more legroom, thus less seats.
The AT&SF and C&O were two railroads that frequently referred to reclining seat air-conditioned coaches as chair cars. This occured even with remodeled heavyweight cars.
Beginning, I think, in the thirties, the C&O had what it called "Imperial Salon Cars" "for coach passengers" on its named trains. These cars had two reclining seats on one side of the aisle and one reclining seat on the other side.
The L&N had the same style arrangement in the coach cars used on the Pan American at this time; I have been in one, in a museum.
From the descriptions of equipment that I have seen in the Guide, I have had the impression that some railroads, such as the AT&SF, did call coaches "chair cars," particularly since there is no mention of "coaches" in the equipment listed for the trains that carried chair cars. This may have been to differentiate those with reclining from those with the "walk over" (reversible back) seats. I do not recall any listing of equipment that contained both coaches and chair cars.
As an aside, my strangest trip by coach was from Nashville to Birmingham, in 1964, on L&N's Cincinnati to Montgomery train.--the only passenger accommodation was a heavyweight Pullman that was owned by a chapter of the NHRS; most of the cars carried storage mail. I did enjoy my only trip down the L&N's old mainline south of Nashville and north of Athens, Alabama.
Johnny
This is an "every railroad different" situation. I think in some cases that chair cars were a distinction between first and second class coaches.
Some roads may also have wanted to distinguish the amenities of long distance cars from the short distance ones.
Regarding riding Pullmans with only a coach ticket, I recalled several years ago on this Forum, that during WWII when streamliners from the south, the Southener, Champion, Silver Meteor, were very late going north and needed to be turned and serviced at Philadelphia or Washington, PRR's standard practice was to assemble a train of standard 12&1 heavyewight Pullman sleepers and use it round-trip for the connection NY to Philadelphia or Washington and back. This was equipment that otherwise would be idle at Sunnyside during the day.
Southern Pacific referred to coaches on the Sunset Limited and the Golden State where they collected an extra fare as Chair Cars; BUT they also called the rider coach on Train 39/40 a Chair Car too.
NorthWest I think in some cases that chair cars were a distinction between first and second class coaches. Some roads may also have wanted to distinguish the amenities of long distance cars from the short distance ones.
I think in some cases that chair cars were a distinction between first and second class coaches.
Growing up in a station I was taught there were "Daycoaches" and "Sleepers" the latter being 12&1 cars. I don't ever recall "Chair Cars". And since the CPR operated their own sleeping cars, they were never referred to as "Pullman" cars, only "Sleepers".
A bit more about Sleepers. During the mass immigration period in Canada between 1885-1925 CP operated specific trains to meet these immigrant ships in Montreal. If the ship was from Europe, the 2nd class or Colonist Cars were referred to as "Emigrant Class" cars. However, when the exact same cars were used to meet a ship from Great Britain they were referred to as "Second Class" cars.
"We are not immigrants, we are British Subjects".
Montreal and Halifax both had Ellis Island type facilities for non-British immigrants.
When my Grandmother arrived in Montreal from England to join her husband who was already out in Alberta, after she left the ship and was taken to the train station, she presented her train ticket to an official at the entrance to the station, he checked to make sure she had the right train, and she was a Canadian. Able to vote in any election and eligible for a Canadian Passport if she had wanted one.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Did CP have separate sleeping car conductors or did one conductor handle all duties. I did ride CP sleepers but failed to note the answer to this question. CP overnight Monreal-Quebec.
I'm not familiar with the actual terminology, but there were porters and a supervisor on all mainline trains. I don't know if that supervisor was called a Sleeping Car Conductor or not. I will poke around my stuff ad see if I can find the actual job tittle. That person did deal with the sleeping car tickets and other supervisory issues.
I do know that Dining Car "bosses" were called Stewards.
As I am typing this, I am starting to wonder if Chief or Head Porter wasn't the term.
With Pullman, in the States, porters were always blacks, including porters-in-charge, and Pullman conductors with very few exceptions, whites. On the CP, I never met a black porter or trainmen, only occasional dining car waiters. All others were whites.
Ain't no segregation on Amtrak though!
And, I have had female sleeper attendants and conductors. One conductor almost ran into my arms when I was in the aisle, and she had to move quickly from one car to another; she apologized (I was just outside our bedroom, but I don't think my wife saw the encounter .)
Getting back on the thread theme for a second I seem to remember that the term "Chair Car" for a coach meant a separate seat for each passenger rather than a shared bench seat.
Deggesty From the descriptions of equipment that I have seen in the Guide, I have had the impression that some railroads, such as the AT&SF, did call coaches "chair cars," particularly since there is no mention of "coaches" in the equipment listed for the trains that carried chair cars. This may have been to differentiate those with reclining from those with the "walk over" (reversible back) seats. I do not recall any listing of equipment that contained both coaches and chair cars.
Deggesty (above) has it exactly right. And, please, no confusion of chair cars with parlor cars and their easy chairs!
daveklepper With Pullman, in the States, porters were always blacks, including porters-in-charge, and Pullman conductors with very few exceptions, whites. On the CP, I never met a black porter or trainmen, only occasional dining car waiters. All others were whites. Ain't no segregation on Amtrak though!
Dave, you're not quite right in stating that Pullman porters were always blacks. On one trip from Chicago I had an oriental (Chinese I think) porter. I don't remember which, but it was either on the American Royal Zephyr to Kansas City or the Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr to Omaha.
Mark
You are correct. I should have said "almost always."
daveklepperDid CP have separate sleeping car conductors or did one conductor handle all duties.
Sorry it took so long to get back to this question. I wasn't able to find exactly what I was looking for, but I did find a reference to "sleeping car conductors", plural, all lower case. I don't know if that was their exact tittle or just a generic term for their job. It noted that they were responsible for ensuring spaces were allocated correctly. I presume that meant they handled the sleeping car tickets.
I can't speak with authority on the CP, but in the states trains with Pullman sleepers normally had a railroad conductor and a separate Pullman conductor. You paid the railroad to ride the train, and paid Pullman for the sleeping car berth. You got two separate tickets, one collected by the railroad conductor and one was collected by the Pullman conductor.
I'm sure post-WW2 there were non-black Pullman porters, particularly when Pullman was split up after the war and as many railroads started using their own employees to handle sleeping car duties. However, I wouldn't be surprised if 100 years ago, all Pullman porters were black (and all Pullman conductors white).
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