50 mph for the majority of the mainline thru the mid '70s was correct. There were the typical speed restrictions for a couple of bridges on the western half of the mainline(there were no mainline bridges between the Oconee River near Madison and Augusta) and populated areas such as between Whites Switch/Augusta and Stone Mountain/Decatur/Atlanta.
By 1981, most of the 50 mph trackage had been reduced to 45 mph.
Jay
Fr. Al,
45-50 mph would be my guess for the top speed of the mainline super mixed trains, and probably all freights for that matter. When I retrieve our Christmas decorations from the basement I will check one of my mid to late 70's GARR timetables to see what the legal speed was for the mainline freights. My 1964 timetable is showing a 50 mph speed limit for freights(60 mph for passenger trains) along most of the mainline, however this predates the mainline mixed trains.
The 18-car limit was a restriction on ATSF for the "Super Chief/El Capitan" and was apparently based on the length of the platforms at Topeka. I have seen longer trains on other roads that admittedly had a large block of mail & express on the head end.
Fr.AlYes, I enjoyed that article as well. On the subject of the Georgia RR mixed trains, I seem to recall reading that the ICC had limits on the length of trains that carried passengers. I'm only a "moderate" railfan, so I don't pretend any expertise.
I do not know either, but I was told by someone years ago that the limit was 18 passenger cars on a regular passenger train. However, I have personally seen a Canadian rolling thru Jasper, Alberta with 22 passenger cars--roughly around 2003 and in Canada so ICC would not have had jurisdiction and was long gone by then.
As far as the mixed trains on the Georgia Railroad, there was well over 100 cars on every Super Mixed I rode. So I am positive no limit was in place for that service. When the Georgia first started the Super Mixed, I believe they self imposed a 40 car limit, but that was short lived.
Nice to see that the current Classic Trains special issue, All Aboard, also has a nice article by J. David Ingles on the Georgia Railroad mixed trains.
2013 has been a good resurgence year of popularity for the old Georgia Railroad service.
Forgot to add, the current issue of TRP, July/Aug/Sep, has a very nice article about the last couple of years of the Georgia Railroad mixed trains. It is the issue with the Hamm's Beer car on the front cover.
It is getting close to the time that the next issue comes out, so might want to check out the nearest Barnes & Noble or Books a Million soon.
That is NOT a logo. It is an emblem, or herald. It was created long before anybody thought of dreaming "logo" up.
Johnny
I think the check was from the Georgia Railroad Bank and Trust.I never read the Passenger Train Journal,but I think I did see the Railfan article.Living in an apartment now,I no longer have my collection of back issues of Trains,Railroad,and R&R.
That was an article by Don Phillips. The Supermixed did garner much publicity. Railfan magazine had a nice article in one of its first issues back in the mid'70s, by Jim Boyd I believe. Also, Passenger Train Journal had a nice article by Mike Schafer back in the mid '80s.
The check was probably from the banking side, Georgia Railroad Bank and Trust. The railroad charter, 1833, was amended shortly after issuance in 1835 to allow the banking arm. Much like the Georgia RR, the bank is now just a branch in a much larger company's family tree, Wells Fargo. I do not know if the Georgia RR Bank & Trust ever used the railroad's arc/columns logo as they had their own logo with a horse head in a circle.
That's my point,the length of the Supermixed.I think I first read about the Georgia mixed in TRAINS back before the Atalana-Augusta mainline had eliminiated conventional passenger trains.This would have been circa 1969,pre-Amtrak,in any case.
As can be seen by my handle,I'm a priest.Back in the late 70's,early 80's,when I was stationed in Houston,I was flown in to serve a couple of Greek Orthodox missions in Charleston,SC,AND Augusta.I recall flying into Atlanta and making the drive to Augusta next day for services.It would have been neat to have taken the mixed,but time obviously didn't allow that.I seem to recall that the check which the Augusta mission paid me have Georgia Railroad logo on it.
Fr.AlWhen I started this thread,I suggested that tourist type operations might not be considered true mixed trains.Of course,that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy riding the Santa Fe Southern mixed!I regret never having ridden the Georgia mixed.That,too,was atypical.As I understand,the Georgia railroad's mixed was more like a conventional freight with the coach tied on just ahead of the caboose.
What was atypical about the Georgia Railroad Supermixed mainline trains was the use of lightweight cars and the length of the train, normally between 120-140 freight cars.
At the beginning of the mainline mixed trains the passenger car was placed behind the locomotives with a boiler equipped geep providing the luxuries of heating and air. These trains were usually well under 100 freight cars. This was in '69 or '70, IIRC. A few years later when the mainline mixed trains became the Supermixed with 120-140 freight cars, the passenger car was moved to the rear in front of the caboose. Now air conditioning or steam heat was not provided for obvious reasons.
The Macon Branch mixed was a more typical mixed with the use of a heavy weight coach and no caboose. These trains were usually shorter trains too.
The Washington Branch and Athens Branch trains used cabooses with passenger car seats in the later years. I know by '75 this was the case and probably a few year sooner. Up til then, these trains were truly the typical mixed trains with only a few cars and a heavyweight coach or combine on the rear.
which is what most mixed trains were. Peddler freights with a coach or combine added
Sadly, the Santa Fe Southern has fallen on hard times and cancelled service this season.
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/business/article_6f2b81db-9e29-5381-8581-6f3b8a9d34a2.html
I've ridden this train three times(at least) during my 8 month tenure in New Mexico.The only time it carried freight was the one time I rode the in the cab(about $50.00 above the regular ticket price;this was seven years ago.)This was a double first for me,a cab ride and a mixed train ride.One could say it was a mixed train,but it's more of a touristy type of thing.
It would be awesome if Santa Fe Southern could coordinate the runs to be more in sync with the Amtrak service also at Lamy.
Claremont and Concord is still in business from Claremont Jct to Claremont, with an isolated operation in the former B&M Westboro Yard in West Lebanon NH. Mixed trains are long gone.
C&O regularly carried a sleeper in its Hot Springs mixed train. Usual consist in the 50s or 60s was a boiler GP7, a combine, the sleeper, a hopper car or other freight and the caboose.
Maine Central's Beecher Falls mixed lasted long enough to get EMD switchers as regular power, and to be rerouted over the B&M Groveton Branch and GT main line to Stewartstown after one too many washouts on MEC's line from Lancaster NH to Stewartstown. A bit of the branch was intact from Stewartstown up to Columbia NH until not long ago.
Would you consider the Santa Fe Southern as operating mixed trains?
They have a regularly scheduled daily freight train from Santa Fe to Lamy and return which also has cars attached for tourists. While interchange is performed at Lamy, tourists may have a BBQ lunch.
The Suncook Valley dieselized on 22 April 1949 with a 43-ton 300HP GE ex-Chickasaw Ordinance -then Fort Benning -then Greenville Manufacturing, Greenville, OH, painted in B&M switcher colors, and this was replaced by a 44-ton (400HP?) GE new in July 1951, which went to the Sanford and Eastern after SV quit.
Also rode the C&C, but only when it was part of the B&M, first at end of summer 1945, extra ex-PRR P54 coaches for campers returning to NY via Day White Mountains Express, then on 30 April 1950 on the NRHS "Round-the-Mountain" excursion.
See RAILROAD CITIES/CONCORD, NEW HAMPSHIRE, Liljestrand and Sweetland, a/o Bob's photo, Concord Available from Boston Street Railway Association, BSRA with website
I lived in Contoocook when I was a little kid about 1954. We lived a couple of blocks from the C&C, but the only train I remember was a steam train stopped in town. By the reaction of the locals, even then steam apparently was an unusual event.
There is still a remnant of the C&C between Claremont and Claremont Junction:
http://www.theccrr.com/home.htm
Wow,I attended Pembroke Place Boys School 1968-70,long after the Suncook Valley was abandoned.I do remember seeing traces of the roadbed.I believe the Suncook Valley dieselised at some point,but was the train still steam-powered in '45?
Maine Central operated a mixed in Northern New Hampshire to Beecher Falls,VT.Anybody here remember that one?Also,I used to have a book on the Claremont & Concord..I believe that line quit,but in 1968,while travel through Claremont,I saw a GE 44 Tonner on what appeared to be some vestige of that line or some Claremont street railway.
Reminds me of my riding the Suncook Valley mixed four times in the summer of 1945 at age 13 on my own. Concord - Pittsfield, NH. I've posted the story before.
Fr.Al KCSfan daveklepper Along with others, I would define a mixed train as one defined as such in the Official Guide. Hitching some freight cars to a streamliner doesn't make it a mixed train in my opinion. I totally agree. A "true" mixed train picked up, dropped off and did any necessary switching of freight cars along its route. It was both a local freight and a local passenger train. It most commonly ran on short lines or branch lines and often was the only scheduled train on these lines. The passenger consist was often just a single combine tacked on to the rear of the train. Some carried an additional coach and a few (though very few) even carried a sleeper. Mark Can anybody name a mixed train that DID carry a sleeper?I recall an article about riding a mixed on the UP(was it Trains or CT?)from Utah to Wyoming.I believe it did run overnight,but I'm not sur there was even a coach,let alone a sleeper.
KCSfan daveklepper Along with others, I would define a mixed train as one defined as such in the Official Guide. Hitching some freight cars to a streamliner doesn't make it a mixed train in my opinion. I totally agree. A "true" mixed train picked up, dropped off and did any necessary switching of freight cars along its route. It was both a local freight and a local passenger train. It most commonly ran on short lines or branch lines and often was the only scheduled train on these lines. The passenger consist was often just a single combine tacked on to the rear of the train. Some carried an additional coach and a few (though very few) even carried a sleeper. Mark
daveklepper Along with others, I would define a mixed train as one defined as such in the Official Guide. Hitching some freight cars to a streamliner doesn't make it a mixed train in my opinion.
Along with others, I would define a mixed train as one defined as such in the Official Guide. Hitching some freight cars to a streamliner doesn't make it a mixed train in my opinion.
I totally agree. A "true" mixed train picked up, dropped off and did any necessary switching of freight cars along its route. It was both a local freight and a local passenger train. It most commonly ran on short lines or branch lines and often was the only scheduled train on these lines. The passenger consist was often just a single combine tacked on to the rear of the train. Some carried an additional coach and a few (though very few) even carried a sleeper.
Mark
Can anybody name a mixed train that DID carry a sleeper?I recall an article about riding a mixed on the UP(was it Trains or CT?)from Utah to Wyoming.I believe it did run overnight,but I'm not sur there was even a coach,let alone a sleeper.
The Georgia Railroad mainline Super Mixed trains carried the West Point Route Pullman "Alabama River" when one of the two lightweight coaches was in the shop. It was always a pleasure to find it subbing since it was kept very clean in comparison to the coaches as it was used as a host car along with the Georgia Railroad office car, known today as Georgia 300, at "The Masters" golf tournament in Augusta.
Technically not the answer you are looking for since overnight travel was not involved, but it was a Pullman in mixed train service up to 1983.
I was fortunate to have grown up in the prime of the Georgia RR mixed trains. For the fame they earned, the service was short lived, 1969-1983. 14 years. I was 14 in 1976. My school friends and I put the mixed trains to good use between Thomson and Camak, GA. All of 11 miles. The Georgia RR ran only one mainline thru train in each direction daily. The trains, #103 & 108, would often be 150 cars long with 7 locomotives and the famous coach placed in front of the caboose.
Since Miller Milford, the agent in Thomson, worked M-F, we had to prearrange with him to notify Harrisonville, the Augusta yard, that 103 had to stop for passengers in Thomson on Saturday. The train rarely stopped, it slowed for us to do a running boarding. We were quiet a sight for the people stopped at the railroad crossing, 2 or 3 teenagers running alongside a train with one of the crew members pulling us up by the arm. Wouldn't that service go over well with the corporate lawyers today!
Since the westbound trains had a grade out of Thomson, invaribly the train would stall out 100 yards after we boarded. For all this fun, the railroad charged us $0.35 fare, one-way for the 11 miles to Camak. Even at the cost of diesel in the mid-'70s, think of the cost incurred for that fare.
Most of the time the crew would want us to ride in the caboose, especially in the cold weather months. We did not complain, as they gave us free reign of the cupola or bay windows. Plus the coaches were not kept very clean. I remember hitting the seats with my fist and creating a dust cloud Charlie Brown's "Pig Pen" would have been proud of. The windows were very dirty too.
The exception was when the Pullman Alabama River was subbing. If it was on the train, the crew was happy to ride in it with us.
While waiting on the eastbound mixed, 108, to arrive for our return trip, we would roam around the switchyard in Camak. It was a busy place with many photo opportunities. We would eat lunch at Rachel's Cafe in the Camak depot or get a snack at my father's store, J & J Grocery in Camak.
The heavyweight coach for the Macon Branch mixed train was usually sitting in the yard. While the Washington Branch mixed train, which came into the Camak yard, used only a caboose for its mixed service by that time. However, a passenger could not board the Washington mixed train in Camak, passengers were only carried between Barnett, the junction with the mainline, and Washington. We never did ride these two mixed trains as teens, however my dad did take me on the Macon Branch mixed train when I was much younger.
I remember two return trips, one was because we had to take advantage of the service advertised on the sign in the coaches, it basically stated "The railroad had the right to offer substitute transportation". Train 108 was running late and close to the hours of service for the crew. They were afraid a stop in Thomson would cause them to go dead. It just happened that the brakeman or flagman had his car in Camak, so he gave us a ride back to Thomson to each of our homes.
The other was another case of a very late running 108. We rode the coach this time. It was well after dark. In talking with the conductor, he decided that they would let us off at the West View Cemetery since it was closer to my house than the depot. The tracks are on roughly a 10' fill there with the banks covered in blackberry vines and other vegatation except for a worn footpath that crosses the tracks. The engineer stopped that 130+ car train with the coach steps dead center of that footpath. Still amazes me today. I remember my friends and I did not loose anytime in walking(closer to running) thru that cemetery that night.
I did appreciate those mixed trains back then, I even knew they were a rare jewel--even at that young age. This was more than likely brought to light as I was blessed to have grown up literally in Mr. Forrest Beckum's backyard. His yard missed touching our backyard by 100 feet. I wore a path between our houses walking over to visit. However, even knowing the rarity does not prevent regrets today. I wish I had rode the super mixed the whole length of the Georgia RR mainline and I wish I had rode the branch line mixed trains. The biggest preventer of that was my age--at 14 my parents gave me a lot a free reign --riding unsupervised 11 miles to the town where my dad owned a store was one thing but riding a train across the state with no way back until the next day was another.
FlyingCrowThe Tonopah & Goldfield carried a sleeper in mixed service during WW2 for the USAAF airfield at Tonopah.
Here we have a specific situation that does indeed require a sleeping car. But it occurred to me that confusion in other cases may be arising for different reasons.
On the CPR as on many other roads, that except those built for service on specific named trains, almost all of the CPR combines were conversions from colonist sleeping cars. The upper berths were never removed from the coach section, and the mattresses remained. The baggage man, whose name I won't mention, who worked the mixeds the whole time we were at Irricana, slept in the upper berth on the right hand side next to the bulkhead between the baggage compartment and the passenger section, when you faced the bulkhead. He kept other personal items in the berth across the aisle. He lived there six days a week.
In those days the engineer and fireman slept in bunk houses, the trainmen and conductor slept in the caboose, and the baggage men slept in their baggage car/combine. It was a union thing. I don't recall how it was the running trade men only worked a maximum of four days per week, but baggage men worked six. Another union thing. I think some of the confusion, this many years after the fact, may lie in the difference in mixed trains posted as carrying a sleeping car, and those that had a car capable of being a sleeping car.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
The Tonopah & Goldfield carried a sleeper in mixed service during WW2 for the USAAF airfield at Tonopah.
Johnny, although the names escape me, there are several more rivers in North America that translate into "Bow" from the local Native dialects. This tidbit of information came up at the same time some local university professor once said that the the Bow River you saw is in fact an incorrect interpretation of the native name for it. Other professors, of course, disputed this.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Fr.Al Can anybody name a mixed train that DID carry a sleeper?I recall an article about riding a mixed on the UP(was it Trains or CT?)from Utah to Wyoming.I believe it did run overnight,but I'm not sur there was even a coach,let alone a sleeper.
The C&Os mixed train between Clifton Forge and Hot Springs, VA carried a New York - Hot Springs sleeper which ran between Clifton Forge and Washington in the FFV.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter