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Multiple sections on PRR Broadway Limited and other name trains?

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Multiple sections on PRR Broadway Limited and other name trains?
Posted by Utley26 on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:03 PM

Just wondering if the Broadway Limited had muliple sections, and if so, what years did this occur and how many sections at the peak?   Did other PRR name trains enjoy enough popularity to have multiple sections?

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:20 PM

Most all first class passenger trains on First Class and other railroads ran in more than one section at one time or another I am sure.  Just a busy day may warrant it on the railroad when they realize the reservations or ticket sales go beyond normal.  Special weekends, holidays, special events, or popularity would give them a chance to plan further in advance.  Sometimes sections would run only part of a route, sometimes the whole route.  As many sections of a train could run usually up to the schedule of the next train over the same route(s) and depending on how much equipment was on hand.  Sometimes a charter train or special would be run as a section of a certain train to give it authority and schedule.  Sometimes trains would run as Advance Section rather than second, etc.  Advance sections and all other extras would run with white marker lights on the locomotive; second and successive sections would carry green markers forward.  Usually sections would as closely replicate the original train in equipment when possible but sections going shorter distances might just get coaches, even commuter coaches if necessary.  Each railroad had its own programs and problems when running in sections.  

BTW, freight trains may also, did also, run in advance or following sections when traffic warranted.

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Posted by Utley26 on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:29 PM

Thanks Henry, but I guess I was looking for something a little more specific to the PRR Broadway regarding number of sections and general dates, as well as which PRR Blue Ribbon trains had multiple sections.  If anyone has PRR-specific information, or knows where I could find it, it would be much appreciated.  Thanks.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:05 PM

Sections would run when warranted....holidays, weekends, special events, summer rush...there was no pattern. Over the years, probably you could count the extra sections in the thousands of times.  Overall no one can be more specific than that unless you are more specific with a date or an occasion.  Sections were not in the timetables but it was known pretty well in advance which dates might need sections.  Otherwise look in the picture books and see if you can define a white flag from a green flag or if the captions can tell you. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 6:13 PM

Extra Sections of any service...passenger or freight is demand driven....as is the scheduled service itself.  If you don't have demand for a service...you don't need nor can you financially justify having the service.

Reading I have done over the years leads me to the belief that somewhere I have read that both the Broadway and 20th Century Limited have operated as many as 7 extra sections....obviously, when that occurred there was heavy demand for the service.

When a service consistently required a additional section(s) over a period of time, the carrier would implement 'new' scheduled service to satisfy the demand, rather than to continue to operate the second section(s).  I believe demand required NYC to implement the 'Commodore Vanderbilt' and the PRR to implement 'The General' rather than to continue to operate trains as additional sections of their standard bearers.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 19, 2011 2:37 AM

My own experience, for what it is worth, is that many extra sections were often run for the Century and occasionally run for the Broadway up to the 1938 streamlining.   After that time, through WWII, and after WWII, extra sections were not run, generally, for these trains.  These trains had special amenities which could not be met by simply taking cars (heavyweight or lightweight) from the Pullman pool.  So extra demand (including me) was accommodated on the Commodre Vanderbilt and General, which did have extra sections.   Much thte same rule applied to the Southerner, the Tennesean, and the Florida streamliners, as well.   The Piedmont Limited, Queen and Crescent, Havana Special, and Sunland and Palmland could have extra sections and did.   I cannot speak for the western streamliners because I generally did not ride them during periods of heavy demand.

The exception was that the Century very seldom but did run a single extra section in one direction when protection lounge and observation equipment was available and could be scheduled into service.   Thus photos of a stainless obs at the rear of an all two-tone grey Century, an extra section.  The Broadway's equipment was a bit more specialized.

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Posted by AltonFan on Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:22 AM

During World War II, troop trains were often run as second sections.

Dan

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, May 19, 2011 12:27 PM

Santa Fe's practice was to run special and extra passenger trains as sections of a scheduled run.

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Posted by K4sPRR on Thursday, May 19, 2011 3:41 PM

The Broadway and the 20th Century Limited's in the early 20th century both had the tradition of keeping their trains to a maximum of 9 cars.  The reason was so the elite passengers would not have to rush during the dining hours and the lounge/observation cars being crowded and unenjoyable.  Once the train was sold out then other sections were then put into place.   Once that section was then sold out to the nine car max, then on to another.  Pullman was well aware of this practice and always had a fleet of cars available for them.  Basically, the railroads wanted your experience on the train to be as enjoyable and hassel free as possible, and a main concern, eating at your pleasure.

During this era to see multiple sections during high travel periods such as holidays was not uncommon.

When the trains were reequipped in 1938, the cars were bigger and could accomodate and handle a larger ridership, to include the dining cars.  So again, once the railroad decided that the train was at its "comfortable " max, another section was then put in place.  Generally during this time thirteen cars sold is when another section was considered.

The war years, both WWI and WWII, had a big impact on this but the traveling public understood.  Post WWII once again seen new equipment for the Broadway and the train length seemed to be holding its own, but when necessary a second section was added.  Even into the PC era the Broadway would on rare occasion run a second section.

A book I recommend on the Broadway is Joe Welsh's book called the Pennsylvania Railroad's Broadway Limited.  It has very detailed information as to equipment and how the train operated.   The same publishing company also had a book on the 20th Century Limited, both books make reference to one another, plus lots of pictures.  The story of these two trains is facinating and you'll realize they were not the enemy everyone thinks, it was well crafted competition by both roads and Pullman.

Many people regard the PRR's "General" as an economic section of the Broadway, but its intention was to maintain costs for the traveler and therefore not all of the amenities offered by the Broadway and a slightly slower schedule.  The General was a very sucessful train and comfortably equipped and at one time in the 1930's was considered to replace the Broadway as the premier train.   The Spirit of St. Louis was another PRR train that ran in multiple sections, particularly during WWII.  The Liberty Limited had problems penetrating the dominance of the B&O on that route and rarely ran sections or I should say rarely sold out.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM

henry6

 second and successive sections would carry green markers forward.  

Except that the last section carried no markers. Thus, if a section were operated over just a part of a scheduled train's route, it would carry the green--and the regular section, running behind the additional section and carying no markers, would not have to stop and put the green markers up or take them down.

However, if for some reason the section that was running last should be ordered to run ahead of another section, it would have to put markers up, and the section that now was last would have to take its markers down. This exchange had to be made by train order.

I have seen one additional section of a scheduled passenger train--a first section of IC #3, the Louisiane. I do not remember the occasion.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 22, 2011 5:07 AM

In my post, I was only referring to second and additional sections run for general passenger boarding.  Troop trains and trains run for special charter groups could always be run operationally as an additional section to the Broadway or Century.   I can assure you that any of the general passenger 2nd sections to these two trains was extremely rare 1938-1948, because there simply was not available additional equipment to offer all the amenities advertized for these trains.  It may have happened in one direction only at a time on some occasions.   After 1948, possibliy more frequently because more lightweight euqipment was available and there was standby and protection equipment, at least at first.   After the Broadway received coaches and a Washington, DC section, it was really the old General with the Broadway name.   The observation cars Tower View and Mountain View were sold.  So addidtional sections certainly were possible in the last PRR days and the  PC days up to Amtrak.  I beleive I may have ridden the train once eastbound when the Washington section was a separate train.  I am not sure because I was asleep at Harrisburg, and possibly both the Washington cars were detached and additional coaches added at Harisburg.

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Posted by AgentKid on Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:01 PM

CP would sometimes split the Dominion west of Calgary based on car type due to the mountainous terrain. Headend traffic and coaches for travelers having tickets to local stations would ride in this section. Sleepers, diners, and coaches for people going longer distances would be in the following section(s). Canada didn't have Pullman only trains, except those originating or terminating in a US city. There would be coaches on first class trains, but passengers could only board or stop at small stations if they met certain conditions. Traveling to or from a major city more than a certain distance away.

Bruce

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, May 27, 2011 11:19 AM

Bruce, what about CN's Ocean Limited? A 1950's Guide (there were other years, as well) shows it as being all-Pullman on its run between Montréal and Halifax.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, May 27, 2011 1:09 PM

Deggesty

Bruce, what about CN's Ocean Limited? A 1950's Guide (there were other years, as well) shows it as being all-Pullman on its run between Montréal and Halifax.

Also the Montreal/Toronto-Vancouver Trans-Canada Limited and the Montreal-Halifax Acadian were all Pullman Canadian runs during the 1920's.

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Posted by AgentKid on Friday, May 27, 2011 8:32 PM

This is all very interesting. The Trans-Canada Limited only lasted a year or two before the Depression and then was replaced a year or two after that with The Dominion. I am not sure about The Acadian, but I suspect Depression era economics disabused them of that notion. Running all Pullman trains after business picked up after 1935, on the CPR at least..

I admit to being far from conversant with CN passenger operations prior to VIA, beyond that which is in the book "VIA Rail" by Christopher Greenlaw.

This will teach me to make all encompassing statements.

Bruce

 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:16 PM

AgentKid

This is all very interesting. The Trans-Canada Limited only lasted a year or two before the Depression and then was replaced a year or two after that with The Dominion. I am not sure about The Acadian, but I suspect Depression era economics disabused them of that notion. Running all Pullman trains after business picked up after 1935, on the CPR at least..

Actually the Trans-Canada Limited was a summer all-Pullman operation from 1919 to 1930.

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Posted by AgentKid on Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:16 PM

I stand corrected. I was thinking of the 1929 re-equipping of the Trans-Canada Limited. Examples of most of these cars are in the collection of the Cranbrook Railway Museum in Cranbrook, BC. Here is a link:

http://www.crowsnest.bc.ca/tcltd/history.html

Bruce

 

 

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"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

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Posted by AgentKid on Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:27 PM

Does anyone know how to make links hot in Firefox. I am beginning to become really perturbed.

You will have to copy the link in the above post.

Bruce

 

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"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 29, 2011 8:51 AM

One train that almost always had several sections during WWII was the PRR-RF&P-ACL-FEC Havanna Special.   And PRR P-70 coaches did show up in Miami.   Despite this being a non-resserved train for the coach passengers, through coaches were advertized.

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Posted by agentatascadero on Sunday, May 29, 2011 2:06 PM

The 20th Century streamlined re-equips were always for 4 trainsets, so as to be able to run two sections any day, as well as provide for subs during servicing and repairs.  Whereas the Broadway was supplied with two trainsets, with no provision for extra sections of dedicated equipment.  The Century was the only train I know of that was delivered with sufficient equipment to run in sections as a matter of routine.  AA

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Posted by K4sPRR on Sunday, May 29, 2011 7:20 PM

[quote user="agentatascadero"]

The 20th Century streamlined re-equips were always for 4 trainsets, so as to be able to run two sections any day, as well as provide for subs during servicing and repairs.  Whereas the Broadway was supplied with two trainsets, with no provision for extra sections of dedicated equipment.  The Century was the only train I know of that was delivered with sufficient equipment to run in sections as a matter of routine.  AA

In 1937 the addition of The General proved to be very sucessful, taking ridership not only from the Broadway but the Century as well.  The all luxury coach train The Trailblazer introduced in 1939 was another train that was well received, these trains were in all respects used as economic alternatives to the Broadway, in essence a three  "section" train traveling within minutes of eachother.  This eliminated the need for mandated equipment for additional sections of the Broadway, who's ridership during this period was struggling. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 2:49 AM

But the General was a heavyweight train until after WWII when it got the older equjipment from the re-equiped Broadway, and then later newer cars.   Also, I have doubts that the 1938 Century had four complete sets.   I think it was two plus some spare cars.   But you are probably right about the 1948 set, except for the observation cars,.   Because when an extra Century was run, in my experience it always had a stainless obervation, not matching the two-tone grey of the rest of the train.   In 1948 for Both the Century and the Broadway, lots of the sleeping car equpment were identacle to cars used on other long-distance trains, inlcuding some two-unit dining cars.   In 1938 only the obs cars were specific to the two trains.    The New England States, which had been the Boston section of the Century until 1938, was a heavyweight train until 1948 when it got a mostly Budd consists, including the obs.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 6:56 AM

The comment about a stainless steel obs subbing on the Century is interesting.  The last run of the Century prior to the introduction of Empire Service had a stainless steel obs in its consist.  I believe that the replacement car was originally built for the Empire State Express.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 12:33 PM

daveklepper

But the General was a heavyweight train until after WWII when it got the older equjipment from the re-equiped Broadway, and then later newer cars.   Also, I have doubts that the 1938 Century had four complete sets.   I think it was two plus some spare cars.   But you are probably right about the 1948 set, except for the observation cars,.   Because when an extra Century was run, in my experience it always had a stainless obervation, not matching the two-tone grey of the rest of the train.   In 1948 for Both the Century and the Broadway, lots of the sleeping car equpment were identacle to cars used on other long-distance trains, inlcuding some two-unit dining cars.   In 1938 only the obs cars were specific to the two trains.    The New England States, which had been the Boston section of the Century until 1938, was a heavyweight train until 1948 when it got a mostly Budd consists, including the obs.

Dave, I don't know how many cars of each type were scheduled to be operated on a Century, but it seems that there were enough cars delivered to make it possible to have four sets, according to Wayner's Car Names Numbers and Consists:

4 Baggage-RPO's, 14 4-4-2's, 8 13 DB's, 4 MR-DB Buf-Lng-Ob's, 10 17 Rmtte's,12 10-5's, and 4 Dormitory-Barber Shop-Buffet Lounge. Thus, it would have been possible to operate a second section each way every day.

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Posted by nyc#25 on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 3:43 PM

 Post 1948 the "Century's" second section would run with the pre-war

observation cars.  After those cars were gone the second section 

would use the stainless steel 5 double bed room observation 

"Wingate Brook".  I can remember that in the 1960s the NYC

would run the "Century" in two sections during heavy holiday

ridership periods, but the PRR would add cars to the "Broadway",

but would only run it in one section.  However, the PRR would

run  the "General" in two sections to take the rest of the overflow

traffic.

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Posted by JimValle on Tuesday, June 7, 2011 4:02 PM

Right around 1940 the PRR overhauled its proceedures for dispatching trains.  It was running so many passenger movements, especially over its multiple track districts, that it decided to give each train its own identity and dispense with running sections except for a few exclusive limiteds.  All freight trains were stripped of their timetable schedules and ran as extras.  Some freights that ran regularly between designated points were now listed as "Arranged Freight Train Service" and departed at set times during the day but once on the road they simply obeyed the rules governing extras.  Since virtually all passenger trains were now running on schedule without following sections and since all freights were known to be extras there was no longer any need for the engines to carry classification lights so these were removed and replaced with tiny red lights, either round or shaped like a tombstone, which were to be displayed when the engine was running backwards.  By the way, readers of this thread should note that the white and green lights carried by engines are classification lights and NOT markers.  Markers and red or amber and carried at the rear of the train.  Pennsy often put red/amber markers on the pilot beam of locomotives to be displayed when the engine was running backwards but this practice ended with the steam era.

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