daveklepperThe Ripley article clearly states the 2-10-4's and 4-8-4's were premitted 60 mph per timetable plus 10mph overspeed to make up time.
The article actually says
"...the 5001's were designed to operate safely at 60 mph with rated tonnage, and were allowed 66 mph in passenger service. Timetable rules in effect during this period allowed locomotives to exceed the published speed limit by 10 percent for brief intervals if required to make scheduled time."
He's not saying the timetable allowed them 60 mph (or 66 or 70 mph) on freight. Until maybe 1949 the timetable allowed freight 50 mph; some timetables (i.e. some divisions, some years) allowed freight an extra 10%, but the 2-10-4s may have been an exception to that-- I haven't seen any pre-1949 timetable that gave them the extra 10%.
(The 10% rule applied only to freight; SFe's rule about passenger trains exceeding their limit was famously vague, and no way for us to know what 2-10-4s were actually "allowed" on passenger trains.)
In the early 1950s the freight limit was a flat 55-- no mention of the extra 10% for any engine.
The 5001's were designed to operate at 60mph with rated tonnage. Tnat is it, and I can assure you regardless of any timetables (my own experience) they did just that. Any retired engineer will tell you that there were always specific situations where it was commonly known that rule book speed limits could exceeded if the engineer was confident is was absolutely safe to do so, THIS IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM TODAY'S SITUATION.
Sure, everyone knows steam freights all around the country did 60 mph, or maybe 80 or 100 mph, when the engineer was confident it was absolutely safe to do so. Question is, was it "allowed"-- and that depends what you mean by "allowed".
I doubt that any AT&SF frieght ran more than 70mph, but they may have reached that speed on a few special occasions. I agree, it is a good question.
Do you remember the Trains article about THE BIG TRAIN? There it is stated that the auto parts train on the Rock was expected by officials to exceed speed restrictions, without any official authorizaton to do so!
I need to elaborate a bit more. During the "golden age" of railroading, things were not as cut and dried as they are now and have been for at least 20 years. I got to run a B&M freight train as an MIT student and junior test engineer for the B&M, strictly not an official part of my work. I ran a subway train (1917-1926 "Low-V's) on the Pelham Bay line charted by the Electric Railroaders Association when I was Pres. of that organization. Made smooth stops at the right car markers, too!) This would be impossible today!
Possibliy if there had been written authorizaton of overriding speed limit restrictions, the shippers not served by the faster trains could have taken the railroad to court! Experienced engineers were trusted to think of safety first but not sacrifice service in the name ot just going by the book. Less experienced engineers had the book to guide them until they learned where exceptions could be made safely/ A general run of the mill freight train may not have had all loads at the front and all empties at the rear. Freight cars could be in varying condition.
daveklepper Less experienced engineers had the book to guide them until they learned where exceptions could be made safely/
Less experienced engineers had the book to guide them until they learned where exceptions could be made safely/
Johnny
That would obviously depend on lots of things. How close is the next watering stop? Is it double track and the leg hanging out on the inside devel's strip? How close are clearances? Are trains expected to pass? How much delay can the line afford without it being tied up? Hopefully, some common sense and experience and knowledge of both the railroad and the equipment would present the right answer.
I think that with a freight train with top level condition cars and excellent equipment and right of way, the top limit most engineers would observe in a make up time and come in on time situation would be the passenger train limit.
A few years ago, Trains published a story of one the last runs of the PRR T-1's. The author was the fireman. Being already in the diesel era, he and the engineer weren't dressed for steam. But, they found their express mail train had been assigned a dirty run down T-1. Out about Fort Wayne there was a race track of straight track where the engineer conculed it would be the last time they might ever be on one of these so he took the moment. In the story, the speedometer was pegged at 120. Yes, its one of those rare story that takes your breath away. And, yes steam did have speedometers.
Seppburgh, thanks for that. I love any and all information on PRR T-1's. I wonder what year that might have been....1950? '51? I am going to try to track down that back issue.
The article, Last Chance, by John Crosby was in the August 1993 issue of Trains, pp 54-56. Probably one of the greatest first-hand steam and speed stories.
The engineers I have worked with on Soo Line 2719 used the mile posts. Just time the interval between each one. We have a chart with time versus one mile. Pretty simple.
If you run a locomotive for awhile, you can feel and hear sounds that you can relate to different speeds. When I have operated the 2719 on 30 mph track, the locomotive begins to bounce a certain way. The 2719 was built in 1923 without a speedometer. We now use a GPS for speed monitoring.
If you are really interested, come ride with us next year on North Shore Scenic Railroad, Duluth to Two Harbors, MN. You can buy a cab ride ticket. Bring your stop watch.
Dave
The I.C.C. Accident Reports on line can be a source of 1900s speed limits or the lack of them. Some reports of electric interurban wrecks mention that management saw no need for published maximum speed limits on their main lines because the cars were not capable of running "too" fast on the voltage supplied!
In very early years, the New York & Erie RR tried "Dutch Clocks" in their cabooses to record violations of an 18 miles per hour maximum speed limit. Erie caboose frames must have been strong, because the alleged practice at the beginning of a trip was to couple the locomotive into the standing caboose at 18 m.p.h. to jam the clock's innards at the permitted speed! Now it could be coupled to the train without the officials knowing how eager the crew was to get done early.
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