Hi folks ,
that story of Titanic's steel having become brittle in ice-cold water so that caused the very long rupture has come up now and again - afaik since the wreck has been found no evidence has backed that theory and I would tend to go with the Irish as Firelock has quoted them . This ship rightfully was the pride of Irish ship building - unfortunately not for very long . Ever since I have first heard the story of the Titanic I have wondered about that captain . I remember eagerly taking the first picture I saw of him in a book , looking him over scrutinizing , almost trying to step into that picture . I tried to see something .. what ? responsibility ? professional seamanship ? wisdom ? I can hardly tell . Only one thing : I saw nothing , or almost nothing : what was there : vain pride and arrogance , the portrait seemed to say " *I* , who rule in absolute authority .." This prompted another question : what or who was it that / who got him at this post - how could they have handed him this formidable post , commander of this formidable ship - the very avantgarde of technology of the time ? Didn't he have a register of incidents already ? Didn't he once manoeuvre in a harbour so that another ship was turned loose and collided if lightly with his own vessel ? And further : what had my grandfather thought of all this - he had been in an officer's rank at that time , attaining captain’s rank only some years later and going round Cape Horn several times without loosing ship or 'but' a sailor ( at that time considered an 'acceptable price' in commercial sailing for good progress per nautical day ) In one precious portrait of his which has survived times of two world wars , I can see in his face a firm , bold spirit an expression of “ I command this ship because I know this trade in and out and I can do every bit I ask of you !” Besides that , there is a broad paternal air about his face that even today makes you confident you can trust he takes care for all – ship and crew .
I think , the likes I miss in the face of Edward John Smith .
Adding a word or two on a GG1 resurrected :
If you would install modern syncron motors and electronics technology into a body and chassis of a GG1 , fully using available mass for electric power equipment - Jesus , would that be a power house on wheels !
Better than 12 MW hands down ...
Regards
Juniatha
"Roll on Titanic roll, you're the pride of the White Star Line,
Roll on Titanic roll, into the mists of time..." as the Irish Rovers sing it.
Oh boy, I LOVE talkin' Titianic!
Hi Dave!
Your mentioning of the iron rivets in the steel hull reminded me of something. So off I went deep into the archives here at the Fortress Firelock and pulled out my copy of "Titanic, The Life And Death of a Legend" by Michael Davie. Mr. Davie interviewed a Harland and Wolff shipyard veteran named Dick Sweeney who related the ships plates weren't steel at all, they were iron, "raw hard iron" as Mr. Sweeney called it. So, iron rivets in an iron hull. It wouldn't have made any difference anyway, not with a fifty-thousand ton irresistable force hitting a one million ton immovable object. Something had to give and it sure wasn't going to be the iceberg. Well, "Knights Modern Seamanship" said it best: NEVER present your broadside to an object!
Hi Juniatha!
Oh, poor old Captain Smith. I really do feel sorry for the man, forty years at sea without a major mishap and then this had to happen. The previous incidents really weren't his fault. His previous command, the "Olympic" was in collision with the "HMS Hawke" in Southhampton Water, but that was the "Hawkes" fault, her steering gear jammed and into the side of "Olympic" she went.
There was the incident of the wash of the "Titanic" pulling the "New York" away from her moorings, but "Titanic" was under the control of the Southampton pilot at the time. As a matter of fact, it was Captain Smith's command for a little more thrust on the port engine that pushed the "New York" away.
HOWEVER, I can't find old E.J totally blameless of course. Keeping up speed when he knew there was ice ahead, and relying on the lookouts to spot the trouble before it was too late. Not good, although he was just following common practice among North Atlantic liner skippers of the time. In a way, what happened to "Titanic" could have happened to "Olympic", or "Mauritania", or "Lusitania" , or "Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse". "Titanic" was the unlucky one. Captain Smith SHOULD have been on the bridge however, since he knew the danger zone was approaching at some point between 10:00 and midnight. At any rate, that was the end of that practice, for everyone.
Anyway, I would have loved to get your grandfather, the old "Cape Horner", together with Lady Firestorms grandfather, the old "Grand Banker." I can imagine the sea stories they might have told. I would have sat there with my mouth tightly shut and made sure the whiskey glasses stayed full.
As the old chanty goes...
"Whiskey is the life of man, has been since the world began,
Whiskey-O, Johnny-O, rise 'em up from down below!
Whiskey, whiskey whiskey-o, up aloft this yard must go! John rise 'em up from down beloooooooow....
UP SHE GOES!"
Wayne
daveklepper Don't forget that the throttle on a GG-1 controlled taps from a many-many tap transformer, .... But in dc mode they used the classic speed and power control approach, which both requires contactors, a maintenance item, and is wasteful of power lost in resistors. In the ac mode, I believe they used the same type of control as the GG-1. In fact, the PRR tested an EP-3 thoroughly before designing the GG-1.
Don't forget that the throttle on a GG-1 controlled taps from a many-many tap transformer, ....
But in dc mode they used the classic speed and power control approach, which both requires contactors, a maintenance item, and is wasteful of power lost in resistors. In the ac mode, I believe they used the same type of control as the GG-1. In fact, the PRR tested an EP-3 thoroughly before designing the GG-1.
I was thinking of stuffing rectifiers on the low-volatge taps, the way that the E-33 and E-44's worked. The complexity of the DC mode on the NH locomotives was due to the constant voltage DC supply, where rectifying the variable voltage AC would provide essentially the same speed control as variable voltage AC into the AC series motors.
- Erik
P.S. Juniatha's idea of a hot rod GG1 does sound intriguing, though I can't think of something that would rhyme as well as "hot rod Lincoln".
"Good Lord son, you'll be the death of me if you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod "G"..."
How's that?
Talk about off topic - how does a thread about the PRR T-1's fall into the comparative merits of the Titanic and GG-1's?????
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Because when the T-1 hauls that railfan special from SF or LA or even just Chi to Harrisburg, we will need the GG1 to handle the train to Penn Station before boarding the Titanic to travel to Southhampton to board the Bournmouth Bell behind a Bullard Pacific to take us to London.
And by all means book me a single room in a PRR Creek sleeper. And I insist on non-cafeen mint tea with my scones on the Bournmouth Bell Pullman.
And Erik, the parts from the E-33's and E-44's are not available off the shelf or from scrappers anymore. Lots of cash to make them. In any case, the E-33's and E-44's were designed for 25Hz - 11,000V operation, not instantly converting to 60 Hz and/or to 25,000V while moving. Amtrak is going to retire the AEM-7 DC's. The stuff will do the job efficiently, economically, and reliably. I would vote to rewired the classic GG-1 motors with the best insulation possible. It would be a hot enough locomotive. Probably good for 120 mph with as heavy a passenger train as they ever hauled, and above that speed I would not wish to trust the quill drive, suspension system, and other mechanicals. 120mph should permit its operation in the NEC wihtout tieing up the line.
Firelock76 "Good Lord son, you'll be the death of me if you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod "G"..." How's that?
Try Commander Cody's line: Son, you're gonna drive me to drinkin' if you don't stop drivin' that Hot, Rod, Lincoln.
Firelock76 Oh, and on the PRR and N&W's "J"s, I still think the mighty Pennsy couldn't admit those hilbillies down in Roanoke were better at steam engine design than THEY were. Hey, this was the "Standard Rairoad of the World", how could they admit otherwise? The USRA engines of the First world War era were GOOD engines, but the Pennsy didn't want anything to do with them either. Don't forget the BIG role egos have in the business world, both then and now!
Oh, and on the PRR and N&W's "J"s, I still think the mighty Pennsy couldn't admit those hilbillies down in Roanoke were better at steam engine design than THEY were. Hey, this was the "Standard Rairoad of the World", how could they admit otherwise? The USRA engines of the First world War era were GOOD engines, but the Pennsy didn't want anything to do with them either.
Don't forget the BIG role egos have in the business world, both then and now!
Folks and gentry,
This thread has sure run a long course. I've learned some intersting info and read a lot of highly opiniated statements, a few of which are finally inspiring me to chime in. First off, I like the Pennsy. It wasn't a flashy, spit and polish carrier for the most part, though it had it's bright spots. I used to ride it a lot from my earliest days from Philley to Chicago, though my mom preferred the B&O as her father had worked there. Pennsy was more accomodating than is usually acknowledged, at least away from the east coast corridor, and it's fans certainly need not apologize for the old blue collar carrier.
In fact, for the benefit of it's detractors, including those in Canada, it should be pointed out that in the 1950 era, Pennsy was more than a tenth of all US railroading. It carried more passengers and produced more passenger miles, carried more freight and produced more ton miles, than the CP, CN, PGE, NAR TH&B, QC, DAR and all other Canadian lines combined. And it did it with less than a quarter of their mileage and no government subsidies.
As for "smugness", please recall that the Canadian Pacific termed itself "the world's greatet transportation system", not exactly an indication of modesty.
Pennsy didn't like USRA engines? True, but neither did many another carrier from coast to coast. AT&SF, SP , GN, MKT, Wabash, RDG to nane a fe w NP had what, four USRA 0-8-0's? A lot of roads had some USRA mikes, period, and very little if any other models.
As far a big egos go, don't pick on business. Check out Hollywood, the news media, politics, the music business, big education and a thousand other walks of life, including freeloading bums.
Oh well, just blowing off a little steam. Good day for now.
jpp452 Do I have hard figures? No.
Do I have hard figures? No.
Thanks. That's all I need to know about your opinions and speculations.
Right on! This might be the best posting in this entire thread!
Hi Wayne ,
Seems like you have been really looking into matter Titanic - so if you write captain Smith wasn't *that* bad and the previous issues had not really been his faults , I'll just take your word for it .
However he *was* 'schettining' a bit when enjoying society at the ball while his ship continued plowing through the still of the night - sea without waves , making detection of icebergs all the more uncertain - wasn't he ?
Or , we wouldn't allow ourselves to consider not even for a twinkling of an eye capitano Schettino went memorizing Smith , using a rock in the absence of icebergs in the Mediterranean .. no , no , no we don't .
Also , I might be prepared to grant Smith a better choice at the dance than Schettino with his darling on the bridge .
Who was / is the better looking man of the two ? Well , with Smith it's ( just ?) the uniform that formed ( or tied up ?) the man (which man ? dunno ) , Schettino wore but a shabby-shady pullover for his representation in what would be unfavorable press photos no matter how , yet even then he had the face of a Venetian Gondoliere with curly black hair . I'm sure on the occasion he could also sing tolerably well - old songs like 'O sole mio ..' If only he hadn't made it to the island in panic and when called by the harbour chief stumbled like a boy of 13 about how he would 'organize ship's evacuation' from there - he crumbled , he fell to pieces , the situation completelyt wiped out whatever personality there had been in him , left nothing but a bundle of misery pursued by hard luck . It was almost pitiable - yet then again he was already pitying himself so much it looks like it would have been wasted effort to pity him , too . Still , I wouldn’t want to judge without knowing the rest of the story .
Meandering threads - I think Dave put it in a nutshell admirably - it's like an endless journey ; now the journey has a little optional excursion to the Mediterranean , too , and in this weather .. who know’s ..
Hoo boy, Cap'n "Crunch" Schettino. Well, we know the old mariners rule HE forgot:
"If you can see it, it's too close, unless it's the destination!"
Hey, so what if the thread wanders a bit. Let's liken it to a steam excursion with some good friends. Here we are rolling down the line and then "Hey look! There's a switch up ahead! Let's throw it and see where those rails take us! "
Besides, I like Dave's scenario, take a train pulled by a T1 to a harbor where the "new" Titanic's waiting for us. Sounds like fun!
PRR:. Firelock, I agree with you about the Pennsy. They really moved the peoplw and put on the best railroad show of all during WWII. (Who else fitted standard boxcars with trucks modified for high speed and installed signal cable and heating piping so they could run at the front of streamliners?) I've said before that i consider the N&W J the best all-around North American steam locomotive, counting looks, performance, maintainability, all-around usefulness. But if I had my own special train to tour the USA, in non-electrified territory or rather ouside of tunnels, I'd choose the K4 for all the marvelous train rides it gave me. Its looks may be an acquired taste, but I have certainly acquired the taste!
Both the Titanic and the T-1 were steam powered and the GG1 shared rail heads with the T-1? Seems logical to me!
You know, the "wandering thread- steam excursion" analogy reminded me of something. One of my rail videos shows the progress of Southern Pacific 4449 (with a perfectly matched consist, by the way) from Portland Oregon to the Sacramento Steam Fest of 1991. Looking at the train all I can think of was "Man, there must have been one helluva party goin' on during that trip!"
So, let's keep the party going!
The new "T1" could feature FRS Rotary "B" poppets, like 5500, provided the plans for this conversion could be obtained. This job was done in Columbus, as a result of a sideswipe collision. Fifty five hundred was already a good runner before this event, and the new arrangement really guilded the lily ! There were other tweaks involved with this project, which could be used on a conventional T1 modernized build.
It really is sad that so many railroads didn't have the foresight to SAVE at least one of their "signature" steam locomotives. The T1 and S1, to name a few, would be amazing Museum pieces, if nothing else. Surely the scrap value of one of these would not have been a "make-or-break" situation, especially back then. Then again, hindsight is always 20/20! I still think about some of the automobiles and other "toys" that I owned years ago, that now would be worth a FORTUNE if I still had them! Example: a 1969 Dodge CHARGER, a 1971 BARRACUDA, AND a 1973 CHALLENGER! All bought NEW!!
Mike C.
Don't feel bad. When I was a senior in high school (1971) a number of guys were driving '57 Chevys. NOW they're classics, back then they were bombs! Who knew?
We'll have to see how the driver castings go, but any competent foundry should get this right. Machine 'em up....and BOOM- We're underway. Some smaller stuff has been made aleady, as has the headlight and number plate. Best of success to the T1 crew!
jaygeeWe'll have to see how the driver castings go, but any competent foundry should get this right. Machine 'em up....and BOOM- We're underway.
Note that the Trust is well aware of the need to make and machine these drivers to be suitable for applying gages and other devices such as 'smart accelerometers' to produce workable instrumented driver wheelsets for testing. In some cases this may require some machining inside the nominal hollows of the castings, which will be interesting to see.
jaygeeHey, let's take some of our leftover T1 money...and start our own Titanic replica !
Every few years I hear about how "someones going to build a 'Titanic' replica." I'd love to see it, but I'm not holding my breath.
It wouldn't be hard to do, but there would have to be some major differences between the 1912 original and a 2015 copy.
SSW9389 You need to read W. A. "Bill" Gardner's account in Trains about delivering the first two E7As to the Pennsy. The E7s kept making the daily runs from Altoona to Detroit while the T-1s became overnight shop queens.
You need to read W. A. "Bill" Gardner's account in Trains about delivering the first two E7As to the Pennsy. The E7s kept making the daily runs from Altoona to Detroit while the T-1s became overnight shop queens.
It would appear that almost anyone could successfully run an EP20 (E7)...and almost anyone could fix it...after a fashion. The problems happening in the locomotive cabs were compounded by what passed for routine maintenance. This was not limited to the T1 by any means, and all Pennsy's new post war power suffered mightily in the early PW period. After about a six year period, the T1 was de-bugged, as was most of the passenger Diesel fleet. Had she been built with fewer "hot-rod" parts, the T1 fleet might have gone into the commuter pool or freight use, as did most of the non EMD passenger power after 1952-53.
A T1 in the commuter pool? Gee, I don't think so. The reason so many of the big steamers went straight to the scrappers during dieselization was there was no practical way to downgrade them to lesser service in the same way a 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 or even a 4-6-2 could be downgraded. The big steamers were just too big and couldn't go places the smaller engines could go. Certainly the New York Central used some Hudsons on locals and the Pennsy was famous for K4s on the New York and Long Branch, but that's as far as it went. If you look at the last steamers to go on most 'roads you'll see they were the smaller ones.
When the diesels came if you were a Niagara or a T1 you were doomed.
No T1 in the commuter pool, but for reasons not yet mentioned. If you look at what made the BP-20s comparatively successful on the Long Branch you will see some of this more clearly.
Commuter work requires substantial horsepower, but it has to be delivered to produce relatively high acceleration from 'moving fast enough not to jerk' up to track speed, ASAP, over and over and over. A T1 would be prone to slip during this, and remember no separate throttles or trim for te tewo engines. The comparatively short stroke would restrict power up to about 30 mph. Think of the pressure and thermal cycling on that alloy 300 psi boiler. And physically you have a very long, very heavy locomotive, with stiff lateral (probably not an issue when running, but a severe problem in shop and on ready tracks, etc.) The kicker to me is what you would do with a T1 at Long Branch -- put in a wye going faaaaaar inland, or a 120' table? You would NOT happily run a T1 backward at high power.
Wizlish No T1 in the commuter pool, but for reasons not yet mentioned. If you look at what made the BP-20s comparatively successful on the Long Branch you will see some of this more clearly. Commuter work requires substantial horsepower, but it has to be delivered to produce relatively high acceleration from 'moving fast enough not to jerk' up to track speed, ASAP, over and over and over. A T1 would be prone to slip during this, and remember no separate throttles or trim for te tewo engines. The comparatively short stroke would restrict power up to about 30 mph. Think of the pressure and thermal cycling on that alloy 300 psi boiler. And physically you have a very long, very heavy locomotive, with stiff lateral (probably not an issue when running, but a severe problem in shop and on ready tracks, etc.) The kicker to me is what you would do with a T1 at Long Branch -- put in a wye going faaaaaar inland, or a 120' table? You would NOT happily run a T1 backward at high power.
There is a popular urban legend wherein one or more T1 locos were used in the Pittsburgh commuter pool at the end of their lives. This would have been from downtown to Derry, out east. Such trains would not have to stop at every station on the route. By this time, the G5s locos used for years, would have been replaced by Alco RS3s (AS16ms). What if one or more of these 244 powered machines was under the weather and a steam substitute was plugged into the mix. I've never seen a photo of such a train, It's not an obvious choice, but it is possible. An E7 is not a great commuter loco either, at least singly, but they got used as such on the NY&LB on occasion. The BP20 was a better choice as their motors were tougher and they had two compressors. As for a T1 in other uses, they have been documented in freight, although not to any great extent. The best one I've ever heard was a couple being sent to Whiskey Island in the summer of '54....to help with ore trains ! Thing is, any and all of this is subject to the availability of parts, as in whatever could be stripped off the dead T1s lying around. I suspect that those last Baldwins lined up at East Altoona until Dec. '55 were there as parts, more than for anything else. As it was, there were no more "customers" after mid '54. Had the T1 been a regular in the Philly area at the end, it's a good bet that one would have been saved. Nothing running "out west" was ever considered for the historical collection at Northumberland.
T1's used in freight service? That's interesting. I've never heard of it happening or seen any photos of the same but I guess anything's possible. I'd "never say never" as far as motive power is concerned.
Hey, the Norfolk and Western used Class J's in freight service toward the end of their lives. Disgraceful, but it was done.
E7s and E8s were used in NY&LB PRR service as rapidly as long-distance train-offs allowed them to be transferred to this service. The Baldwins required more maintenance and were retired as soon as EMD power was available. The EMD E units lasted through PC into the NJT era. I never heard of any schedual lengthening or reduction in on-time performance of this. Of couse the Burlington used lots of E-units in suburban service. Rush hours long trains with lots of stops and only one unit as power.
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