Good Morning AllI was wondering if 4-8-8-4s were called Big Boys, were 2-6-6-4s like Norfolk & Westerns called Challengers? In other words what was the defining factor, could they each have been made with different pilot and trailing truck arrangements?Thanks Lee
yankee flyerI was wondering if 4-8-8-4s were called Big Boys, were 2-6-6-4s like Norfolk & Westerns called Challengers?
In other words what was the defining factor, could they each have been made with different pilot and trailing truck arrangements?
There is evidence that UP intended to name the four thousand class "Walsatch". Credit Alco for the Big Boy moniker, seems a shop person chalked the the name on the smokebox front of the first one constructed, UP liked it so much, they adopted it for their own. A similar occurance is responsible for the challenger moniker, when presented with proposals for a new class of power, Alco responded that designing and building such a locomotive would indeed pose a challenge. I wonder what Western Pacific would have named their 4-8-8-4's? Guess we'll never know as the proposed ten were never built due to allocation of FT units by the War production board in 1941.
Dave
Most classes were given names based on some historical interest or indicent, or even because a given railroad was the first to "try 'em out". The 4-8-4's are generally (not universally!) known as the Northern-type in N. America because the Northern Pacific was the first railroad to buy them and use them extensively. Similarly, the Texas-type 2-10-4 was first purchased and placed on line by the Texas and Pacific. Mikado 2-8-2 steamers were named after the Mikado, the emporer of Japan at the time the Japanese government ordered steamers from the USA in the very early 1900's. Many of them were never shipped, and made available at fire sale prices to roads that could use them...which they did in such large numbers that the "Mikes" became the universal locomotive in general use across N. America for years. Their numbers were legion.
The Berkshire 2-8-4 was named after the Berkshire Mountains for which they were meant to be used by the road that tested them, the Boston & Albany.
And so on...you can find more information here:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/
-Crandell
Thanks to all that answered my post. It just seemed that each driver arrangement could be had in all pilot and trailing truck configuration.
Happy railroading
Lee
yankee flyer Thanks to all that answered my post.It just seemed that each driver arrangement could be had in all pilot and trailing truck configuration. Happy railroading Lee
Thanks to all that answered my post.It just seemed that each driver arrangement could be had in all pilot and trailing truck configuration.
Hi Lee,
The Pilot and Trailing truck configurations were as important in determing class as the driver configurations were.
To Use the 6 coupled driver configuration as an example:
0-6-0 6 wheel switcher(could also be an 0-6-0T, tenderlss, Tank switcher)
2-6-0 Mogul type
2-6-2 Prairie type
2-6-4 not common, and un-named to my knowledge.
4-6-0 Ten Wheeler type
4-6-2 Pacific type
4-6-4 Hudson type
ARTICULATEDS
0-6-6-0 some early types were used for heavy yard switching and helper service, not many used in the later Steam Era.
2-6-6-0 Some may have been built, but not a common type to the best of my knowledge.
2-6-6-2 Probably best known as the Light USRA Articulated, may have been other versions as well. There were lighter 2-6-6-2's, both tender and Tank types used in Logging in the Pacific North West. The Sumpter Valley Ry, in Oregon even had some 36" Narrow Gauge 2-6-6-2's, which were the heaviest 36" Narrow Gauge locomotives ever used in North America.
2-6-6-4 Best known as the N&W's Class A, but there may have been others as well.
2-6-6-6 Chesapeake & Ohio Class H-8 Allegheney.
4-6-6-0 and 4-6-6-2 No known prototypes, that I know of. I wont say none were ever built, but I don't know of any.
4-6-6-4 Challenger type, first designed and built for Union Pacific, with many others built in several versions for other roads as well.
4, 8, 10 coupled driver types also had many variations of Pilot and Trailing truck configurations as well. Union Pacific even had a 4-12-2 type designed, built and named for it.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Whoops!!! Tilt!!! Initiate retrofire!!!
The first 2-8-2 tender locomotives built by Baldwin were indeed named Mikado when they were delivered in 1897 - but the name was given by Baldwin and was probably influenced by the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta of the same name. All were delivered - since, as 3'6" gauge units they would have been a lot harder to re-gauge than the Russian decapods Selector was probably thinking of...
As for 2-6-4 being little used, that might be true in the United States. In Japan there were two classes of JNR 2-6-4T locos that numbered a total of 404 units. C108 and five C11 class locos are still operational, occasionally used for railfan excursions and such on the private railways that own them.
Certain wheel arrangements had a single, well-recognized name. Others were not as universal. South of the Mason-Dixon line, 4-8-4s were known as 'Dixies.' (Aint gonna be no 'Nawthuhns' on THIS railroad, suh!)
During WWII the UP, in a burst of patriotic fervor, tried to rename their 2-8-2s "MacArthurs.'
Sometimes naming a locomotive by letter can be deceptive. Say 'J' and most of us think of N&W's beautiful bullet-noses (Yes, I'm biased!) There were 15. NYC rostered over 400 4-6-4s in several variants of classes beginning with J...
Fun, isn't it?
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with steam identified by class, not name)
Dave: The WP decided on FT diesels on its own for the first order. There is a bit of a story in Virgil Staff's D-Day on the Western Pacific about the debate over FTs or Big Boys. The War Production Board did not exist at the time of the first WP FT deliveries. The first WP FT was delivered right after Pearl Harbor. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Production_Board for a few facts on the WPB. That agency would have been involved with WPs second and third order for FTs.
Ed
West Coast S There is evidence that UP intended to name the four thousand class "Walsatch". Credit Alco for the Big Boy moniker, seems a shop person chalked the the name on the smokebox front of the first one constructed, UP liked it so much, they adopted it for their own. A similar occurance is responsible for the challenger moniker, when presented with proposals for a new class of power, Alco responded that designing and building such a locomotive would indeed pose a challenge. I wonder what Western Pacific would have named their 4-8-8-4's? Guess we'll never know as the proposed ten were never built due to allocation of FT units by the War production board in 1941. Dave
2-6-6-4's were also operated by SAL. They were considered by M&StL, who purchased FT's instead.
Interesting thing about this naming of steam engine types. I never heard of steam engine names until I first saw MODEL RAILROADER when I was a teenager. His whole life, my father referred to Selkirk's (CP's name for 2-10-4's) as 5900's, Santa Fe's as 5800's, Mikado's in various sizes as 5400's, 5300's, or 5200's, and all the other railroaders I ever heard him talk to seemed to do it the same way.
Even with diesels he referred to SD40's and SD40-2's as 5500's, even though they had over 400 of them and the series finished with number six thousand something. This is one thing where I've noticed that railroaders and railfans seemed to part way's.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
West Coast SThere is evidence that UP intended to name the four thousand class "Walsatch".
A minor correction: I would say that the UP intended calling the type "Wahsatch," for the Wasatch (also spelled "Wahsatch") Mountains, which form the back range of the Rockies in southeastern Idaho and northern Utah. We have a beautiful view of the Wasatch from our house.
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCH 2-6-6-4's were also operated by SAL. They were considered by M&StL, who purchased FT's instead.
The M-St.L actually ordered the steam engines, but the WPB gave them FT's instead - ironically, many railroads that ordered diesels were given steam engines much to their chagrin. The issue was that the big steam engines would have required the upgrading or perhaps even replacement of one or more bridges on the M-St.L. The WPB decided it would use less steel to give the railroad the diesels instead - an A-B-B-A set had comparable pulling power, but less weight per axle.
p.s. generally the railroad that first introduced a new wheel arrangement had "the honors" when it came to naming the type..."Northerns" and "Yellowstone" for 2-8-8-4s were named by Northern Pacific. "Challengers" were named by Union Pacific. (BTW "Big Boy" was supposedly scribbled on the front of one of the 4-8-8-4s while being built and the name stuck. "Big Boy" before that was a generic term for any large engine.) I think "Pacifics" came from Missouri Pacific(??). I know the Texas and Pacific had the first 2-10-4 "Texas" engines. New York Central named "Hudsons" after the river their mainline paralleled.
WOW .... you guys are so far over my head in train knowledge .... it's amazing ! It was a pleasure and an educational experience just reading these ....
tomikawaTTAll were delivered - since, as 3'6" gauge units they would have been a lot harder to re-gauge than the Russian decapods Selector was probably thinking of...
Yeah, it was the Decapods. I dunno where I reached into for the non-deliverable Mikados, but it sure came out that way. Thanks, Chuck.
Texas ZepherAs far as I know the 2-6-6-4 never really had a name. To the N&W which made them famous they were simply the A Class.
.
Pittsburgh and West Virginia also had a small fleet of 2-6-6-4 locomotives.
SP had some 4-6-6-2 Mallets in Cab Forward style, but I don´t know if the SP ever had any other name than Cab Forward for them, no matter if it was a 4-6-6-2 or a 4-8-8-2, just as long the cab was in front.
De Luxe SP had some 4-6-6-2 Mallets in Cab Forward style, but I don´t know if the SP ever had any other name than Cab Forward for them, no matter if it was a 4-6-6-2 or a 4-8-8-2, just as long the cab was in front.
AgentKid Interesting thing about this naming of steam engine types. I never heard of steam engine names until I first saw MODEL RAILROADER when I was a teenager. His whole life, my father referred to Selkirk's (CP's name for 2-10-4's) as 5900's, Santa Fe's as 5800's, Mikado's in various sizes as 5400's, 5300's, or 5200's, and all the other railroaders I ever heard him talk to seemed to do it the same way. Even with diesels he referred to SD40's and SD40-2's as 5500's, even though they had over 400 of them and the series finished with number six thousand something. This is one thing where I've noticed that railroaders and railfans seemed to part way's. AgentKid
That's a good point, working railroaders would generally refer to the engines as you do (by their numbers, like a "5400" type...they might not even know the nickname of the engine.
Even with diesels you get into "phases" which the builders and railroads didn't use, and even some designations (like EMD "F5's, IIRC) that are purely railfan jargon. Alco used DL for Diesel Locomotive; to them an RS-11 was a DL-701....
Deggesty De Luxe SP had some 4-6-6-2 Mallets in Cab Forward style, but I don´t know if the SP ever had any other name than Cab Forward for them, no matter if it was a 4-6-6-2 or a 4-8-8-2, just as long the cab was in front. I think they were all, no matter what wheel arrangement or even if they were simple, called "AC." Johnny
The SP 4-6-6-2 Mallets were classified AM (articulated mogul) Likewise, the AC (articulated consolidation) was directly related to the x-8-8-x wheel arrangement.
Chuck
The term F5 was coined by EMD's Engineering Department and was used on EMD's product data cards. It has been perpetuated by railfans, but did not originate with them. The phasing thing for diesels is purely a railfan invention.
wjstix That's a good point, working railroaders would generally refer to the engines as you do (by their numbers, like a "5400" type...they might not even know the nickname of the engine. Even with diesels you get into "phases" which the builders and railroads didn't use, and even some designations (like EMD "F5's, IIRC) that are purely railfan jargon. Alco used DL for Diesel Locomotive; to them an RS-11 was a DL-701....
The F-5 situation was an odd one. I was wrong in saying it was a railfan designation. Apparently it was used internally at GM, but not externally....
"David P. Morgan, writing in the September 1949 Trains suggested that for the purpose of Electro-Motive's engineering department "an interim F-5 model was created." The F5 was not an official designation, but was used to describe late-production F3s (built from the end of August 1948 to February 1949) that incorporated some improvements made standard with the F7 line."
"EMD F-Unit Locomotives" by Brian Solomon, page 50.
"GM's engineering department identified this change by internally referring to units with the D-27 motors as F5's. This designation was not used by teh marketing or accounting departments, who continued to refer to the product as an F3."
"General Motors' F-units, The Locomotives that Revolutionized Railroading" by Daniel J. Mulhearn and John R. Taibi, page 53.
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