English steam

[yankee flyer]

 

Hello everone

I have noticed that many English steam locos have very tall drivers. Does anyone know why or the thinking on this? They seem to be taller than even the fast U.S. steam engines.

Happy R R ing

Lee

[wjstix]

Keep in mind that due to their "loading gauge" (the low height of their tunnels etc.) British equipment is about 1/8th smaller than comparable US equipment. So if say a US and UK Pacific each have 79" drivers, the drivers on the UK engine are going to look bigger because the overall engine outline is quite a bit lower than the US engine.

[dredmann]

On the whole I think that in the UK the trains were (and are) lighter (less trailing tons) and the grades on the main lines are probably somewhat less steep, both of which allow the use of taller drivers, all else being equal.

[wjstix]

Well of course, way back (100 years ago or more) very large drivers were common in the US or the UK. I think some of the British "singles" (4-2-2's, like Thomas the Tank Engines girlfriend) had like 96" drivers. But as for later engines, let's take a look....

Pennsylvania's K-4 Pacifics of 1914 had 80" drivers.

London & NorthEastern A.1 and A.3 Pacifics from 1922 had 80" drivers.

 

New York Central's J-3 Hudsons of 1937 had 79" drivers.

London Midland & Scottish Duchess class Pacifics of 1937 had 81" drivers. 

 

This was from "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Railway Locomotives" by Robert Tufnell (Nigel's cousin I presume??).  From a quick look at similar engines built for similar purposes, it appears they had generally the same wheel driver sizes (within an inch or two anyway). It's just UK equipment is much lower/smaller, so say a UK 4-6-0 with 69" drivers will appear to have bigger drivers than a US 4-6-0 with 69" drivers, because the UK engines body is smaller even though the driver diameters are the same.

BTW that's why they model in OO instead of HO, only using HO track - when they tried to make UK HO models in the thirties, they found that motors that would fit in US or German engines were too big for the British versions, so they made them bigger by using a scale of 4mm=1 ft (OO scale) instead of HO's 3.5mm=1 ft...or 1:72 instead of 1:87.

[yankee flyer]

Thanks all.

I was looking at pictures on (www.railpictures.net) and from time to time they show what seems to be a green semi streamlined loco that has drivers that reach half way up the boiler.I found it interesting. 

Lee

[nickinwestwales]

Lee,Hi !-interesting topic,-I rather think the previous respondants have the right of it R.E loading gauge and general proportions-the former Midland,Great Western & Great Northern lines all had "8ft singles" back in the day-and wonderful elegant machines they were too...-I have a ghost of a memory that the 7ft gauge Bristol & Exeter Rly had a class of 4-2-4 tanks with 9ft drivers....... No time to check out the link you provided but suspect they may be the Gresley A4 pacifics-a class which includes #4468`Mallard`-holder of the world speed record for steam-all perfectly proportioned curved lines-and run as well as they look........ A.T.B Nick P.S-If Brit steam is to your taste,check out the `Our Place `thread-a liberal dose of it happening there

[yankee flyer]

Nick

I went to rail pictures and searched for United Kingdom railroads and came up with a few examples. The A4 Brittern at Newcastle, The flying scotsman 4-6-2, #6000    King George V     4-6-0, and Caledonian Railways 0-4-4 all have that long legged look. The trains allso look more narrow than US trains. It could just be their proportions. Anyway have fun.

Oh yes, I did search for #4468 4-6-2 Mallard. Exceptional machine!

Lee 

[nickinwestwales]

Lee-as you suggest mate-it`s all down to proportions-once upon a time style and substance  were accorded similar value..............

[wjstix]

 

Thanks all.

I was looking at pictures on (www.railpictures.net) and from time to time they show what seems to be a green semi streamlined loco that has drivers that reach half way up the boiler.I found it interesting. 

Lee

What you probably saw was LNER 4472, "The Flying Scotsman" which is still in use today on fantrips and such. It's an LNER A class as I refered to in my earlier post, with 80" drivers. 

4472

The first segment as it stops by the platform give you an idea of it's size relative to the people next to it. 

[Great Western]

Hi Lee,

 I gather you are In St. Louis.  You may well know that one of the Class A4 ex LNER/BR locos is on static exhibit at your national Railroad Museum in Green Bay WI.

The loco concerned is former LNER 4496 Golden Shuttle, re-numbered as 60008 by British Railways and also re-named Dwight D. Eisenhower.

This link may be of interest:

 http://www.lner.info/locos

Click the first item on the menu A 4-6-2 Pacific

 

 

 

[yankee flyer]

Hi Lee,

 I gather you are In St. Louis.  You may well know that one of the Class A4 ex LNER/BR locos is on static exhibit at your national Railroad Museum in Green Bay WI.

The loco concerned is former LNER 4496 Golden Shuttle, re-numbered as 60008 by British Railways and also re-named Dwight D. Eisenhower.

This link may be of interest:

 http://www.lner.info/locos

Click the first item on the menu A 4-6-2 Pacific

Hi GW

I can not get the site to work for me. Is there something missing?    

Lee

 

 

 

[Great Western]

Lee,

I highlighted the link in my initial post and dragged it into the address bar at the top - it worked.  I also did the same on the link in your reply post - that also worked.

 The only thing I can suggest, if you have not done so, is to type it into your address bar yourself. 

 

 

 

 

[nickinwestwales]

Alan,Hi-had trips out on both the Paignton & Buckfastleigh lines last june (see below ) and found both to be a credit to all concerned-if you are in any way connected,please pass on my thanks and congrats. on a job well done img{}/img img{}/img Take care now, Nick

[Great Western]

Hi Nick,

I am a volunteer on the P&DSR (also was on the DVR at Buckfastleigh some while ago).

For our friends not in the UK, the tender loco in Nicks top pic is a 4-6-0 loco No.7827 Lydham Manor which is the same one as in my avatar.  Although she is in Great Western livery she was in fact built by  British Railways in 1950 at the former Great Western shops in Swindon.  As many GW fans know very little changed at Swindon and on the ex GWR for many years after nationalization - just the letter headings.  The carried on as though it was still the old company.

A very large percentage of UK Heritage Railways do have, in some cases only have, ex Great Western (Western Region BR) locos as their motive power.

[yankee flyer]

Lee,

I highlighted the link in my initial post and dragged it into the address bar at the top - it worked.  I also did the same on the link in your reply post - that also worked.

 The only thing I can suggest, if you have not done so, is to type it into your address bar yourself. 

 

 

 

 

I tried everything. Is there something that goes on the end(.net or .com) or what ever?

Lee

[Great Western]

Hi Lee,

I have looked at the various options on the site but basically they have a similar address.

 However, try Google:

Type this in the search bar:

 The London & North Eastern Railway (LNER) Encyclopaedia

It should show as the first item on the list of urls. 

 

Good luck this time.

I don't think it is a UK site,it seems to have a conection with the Lone Star State.

 

 

 

[yankee flyer]

Hi Lee,

I have looked at the various options on the site but basically they have a similar address.

 However, try Google:

Type this in the search bar:

 The London & North Eastern Railway (LNER) Encyclopaedia

It should show as the first item on the list of urls. 

 

Good luck this time.

I don't think it is a UK site,it seems to have a conection with the Lone Star State.

 

 

 

Alan

I got the site by using your method, and the address is (www.iner.info) but I don't know what was differant. The Flying Scotsman #4472 was the loco that I was thinking of. I feel like a

I model in "HO" are any of UK locos available in that Gauge?

That is so I just tried clicking on the above and got the wrong site, eventhough that was in the address bar. 

Thanks

Lee

 

[wanswheel]

http://www.lner.info/locos/A/a.shtml

http://www.enuii.org/vulcan_foundry/RS&H/rocket_replica__lner_locomotive_bayardo.jpg

 

[wjstix]

I model in "HO" are any of UK locos available in that Gauge?

 

Well now we've opened another kettle of worms. I guess the answer is "sort of"; you can buy models of UK engines that run on HO track, but they aren't HO scale.

HO scale is 1:87 scale, 3.5mm = 1 ft. (Literally "Half O" scale, with O being 7mm=1ft...in some places anyway.) Way back (maybe the 1920's?) when HO started, the smallest available motors would fit in most US or European engines, but not in British models because as noted they are about 1/8th smaller than their US counterparts. So the British made the models 1/8th bigger, 4 mm = 1 ft for linear scale, but running on HO gauge track. This "OO Scale" is still the most common in Britain. Although now it would be possible to model in 3.5mm scale, the tend has been to go the other way - stay in 4mm but widen the track gauge to the right gauge.

So...yes you can get models to run on HO track, from finely detailed models to Thomas and Friends...but they're really OO scale not HO scale. 

[Great Western]

Hi Lee,

Glad you managed, eventually, to get into the web site.

Actually at Stix says most British models are 00 running on HO gauge track but some models of British outline stock imported into the UK by European manufactuers were to HO scale.  This was not a long term thing and they soon adopted the unique Uk gauge.

I did model both European HO (SNCF) and OO (Great Western Railway) at one time: I am now into Garden "G" scale railroads, based on the D&RGW (1:22.5) and Milwaukee Road (1:29).

[nickinwestwales]

Lee,Hi-R.E Brit outline H.O-The Italian company LIMA (now part of the Hornby empire) used to manufacture a few Brit prototypes in 3.5 mm scale,they appear on evilbay from time to time and are recognisable by the Euro standard couplers,as opposed to the standard Brit tension lock type-also the French co. JOUEFF (also now a Hornby satellite) turned out a few in the `60`s under the Playcraft marque,again check E/B Good luck Nick

[Glyn]

Slight correction to this. 4496 was renamed Dwight D Eisenhower by the LNER in 1945. It was renumbered 8 in a general renumbering of 1946. It was renumbered again by BR in 1948, becoming 60008 in a standard scheme that added 60000 to all LNER numbers.

The most familiar A4 model is one made by Hornby in the 1950s, usually seen as 60022 Mallard in BR green. However, it was originally released as 7 Sir Nigel Gresley in LNER blue and examples crop up occasionally on the second hand market; the original locomotive is still operation in preservation, with the number 60007 and the rare BR blue livery that existed for a few years in the late 1940s / early 1950s

[yankee flyer]

Nick, Glyn

Thanks for the help. I'll  keep an eye out for something that interests me. I like the  unusual, old Alcos etc. With an eye to the budget of course.

  

Happy Railroading

Lee

[frankjur]

The primary reason the "Singles" had such large diameter drivers was due to the bearing technology of the day. At larger diameters, an express engine needed fewer RPM's to attain high speeds. There'd be less heating of the babbit metal in the bearings.

Also the steam engine (cylinders, pistons, valves, etc.) could operate at slower speeds and still be within the material limitations prevalent then.

 

[nickinwestwales]

A well made point-hadn`t considered that aspect but makes perfect sense...when you tie it in with the light passenger train loads of the time (London-Scotland expresses of maybe half a dozen 6-wheelers ) where speed was of the essence--sound engineering principles--would have been lovely to see one of those high-steppers in full cry..................... A.T.B  Nick

[wjstix]

A well made point-hadn`t considered that aspect but makes perfect sense...when you tie it in with the light passenger train loads of the time (London-Scotland expresses of maybe half a dozen 6-wheelers ) where speed was of the essence--sound engineering principles--would have been lovely to see one of those high-steppers in full cry..................... A.T.B  Nick

Particularly some of the Great Western broad gauge ones, before they had to convert to 56 1/2" "narrow gauge" trackage!!

[Great Western]

Great Western express pasenger locos were acheiving relatively high speeds on the Broad Gauge when the narrow gauge (now the standard one) were still trundling along.  The broad gauge, had it thrived, would have given a very stable, comfortable ride and allowed far more facilities to be incorporated into the cars. Just imagine what could have been developed by the Pullman Company!

Given the wide open spaces and distances involved with travel in the United States I personally feel that the Broad Gauge would have suited the States ideally.

When the atmospheric system was first contructed, between Exeter and Plymouth (though it never reached the latter place), it worked very well - speeds of over 60 mph were achieved. The idea was to run what was basically a very early type of railcar train which could cope with the severe grades that would be encountered in Devon - rather similar (but on a much smaller scale) to those found in the States when crossing mountain ranges.

Too early an idea, like many that were "before their time", plus the vagaries of sea and climate rendered this a costly failure.  It was known as "The Atmospheric Caper".

As far as I know there are three of the original pumping stations in existence, Starcross, Totnes and Torquay. Starcross is a place that is a museum and can be visted, Totnes is part of a dairy (it was threatened with demolition but has been saved) and Torquay is used as a vegetable suppliers warehouse. There is still a very small length of Broad Gauge track to be seen in one of the dock areas of Plymouth.

[steveiow]

Alan

Did'nt the GWS at Didcot have a short stretch of broad gauge at one time?

Don't know if it's still there.

From one who worked on Gods Wonderful

Steve

[yankee flyer]

Great Western express pasenger locos were acheiving relatively high speeds on the Broad Gauge when the narrow gauge (now the standard one) were still trundling along.  The broad gauge, had it thrived, would have given a very stable, comfortable ride and allowed far more facilities to be incorporated into the cars. Just imagine what could have been developed by the Pullman Company!

Given the wide open spaces and distances involved with travel in the United States I personally feel that the Broad Gauge would have suited the States ideally.

When the atmospheric system was first contructed, between Exeter and Plymouth (though it never reached the latter place), it worked very well - speeds of over 60 mph were achieved. The idea was to run what was basically a very early type of railcar train which could cope with the severe grades that would be encountered in Devon - rather similar (but on a much smaller scale) to those found in the States when crossing mountain ranges.

Too early an idea, like many that were "before their time", plus the vagaries of sea and climate rendered this a costly failure.  It was known as "The Atmospheric Caper".

As far as I know there are three of the original pumping stations in existence, Starcross, Totnes and Torquay. Starcross is a place that is a museum and can be visted, Totnes is part of a dairy (it was threatened with demolition but has been saved) and Torquay is used as a vegetable suppliers warehouse. There is still a very small length of Broad Gauge track to be seen in one of the dock areas of Plymouth.

    

what is atmospheric system? Also your broad gauge would be what width?

  

Thanks

Lee

The more you learn the more you realize how little you know!

[nickinwestwales]

Well well,this topic continues to roll--O.K:- in order,Alan-can confirm that Starcross & Totnes pumping stations are in good order-believe S/cross may be an R.N.L.I museum,although I only caught a quick glimpse in passing-only pic I have of Totnes the pump house is obscured by trees....... Some broad gauge bridge and Barlow rail sections are now in use as fencing along the edge of the quay at Neyland marina (the old station site)-have a few pix if interested Lee-Atmospheric system-hmm-quick answer-a large bore pipe layed between the rails,open at the top,with greased leather flaps forming a `seal` -cars were fitted with a sort of paddle (think ping-pong bat) which fitted closely into the pipe.      The pumping houses created a vacuum within the pipe ahead of the train,thus drawing it towards them-as noted,a brilliant idea,ahead of it`s time (and the supporting technology) the Brunel gauge (see pic below ) was a mighty 7 feet & a quarter inch As an aside ( & this may be contentious ) Brunel was an undoubted genius,but not in all fields-his locomotive designs were,by all accounts,sacks of spanners-his saving grace was Sir Daniel Gooch who designed all the classic broad gauge machines-the legend runs " Brunel built the Great Western,Gooch made it work"........  Steve-Here you go mate-the dual gauge exchange shed at Didcot img{}/img  And here-in case it is of any interest to anyone,is an information board from Neyland (Brunels original choice for his planned trans-atlantic liner terminal ) describing the broad gauge rail and assembly-click to enlarge img{}/img  Hope this is of some interest, A.T.B Nick