Jones1945WELCOME TO THE BLOODY FUTURE.
Well, there was a future after Normandie: it included the United States (far faster) and the France. These partook directly of the 'streamlined' style that characterized so many of our postwar 'luxury' trains. Think carefully about why Normandie was not promptly floated and restored after the fire. (And it is interesting to think about the interiors that would have been built into [url=https://oceanlinersblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/22/the-ships-that-never-sailed-part-2/]Yourkevitch's version of the Bretagne[/quote], Blue Riband speed and 100,000+ tons at the same time...)
They all went in the hole long ago, and I think it could be argued that even the best of the postwar streamliners had less 'luxury' than prewar trains like the ATSF de Luxe, even if there were better bells and whistles and lights and air conditioning.
You're forgetting that there was an intermediate stage between Juan Trippe' flying boats and Freddy Laker: the whole stillborn SST revolution that was developing even before the 707 and its ilk became competitive to long-distance trains. That's not for want of trying (notably on the part of the British) to develop luxury 'liners of the sky' with multiple decks, sleeper berths and cabins, and other amenities -- note that the 2707 in particular was predicated on large numbers of the equivalent of 'steerage' to make the numbers -- but you'll note what it took to get the 747 to pay "best", and it wasn't first class and observation glass noses on the upper deck. And you'll notice that getting there increasingly quicker became increasingly deprecated as a design criterion ... even today, when we could have 54-minute service between any two places.
Jones1945 A rare photo showing Pullman Muskingum River, an all-stainless steel 2/1/1 buffet lounge attached to a PRR F.O.M car: https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12349544773/ A scale model of Muskingum River:
A rare photo showing Pullman Muskingum River, an all-stainless steel 2/1/1 buffet lounge attached to a PRR F.O.M car:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12349544773/
A scale model of Muskingum River:
Reasonably authoritative sources suggest the Muskingum River had an alumininium skin on a steel frame. I know Arthur Dubin said it was stainless steel....
Peter
M636CReasonably authoritative sources suggest the Muskingum River had an aluminium skin on a steel frame.
All the authoritative print sources I know (e.g. Welsh et al. The Cars of Pullman) that mention Muskingum River say it used stainless panels over Cor-Ten framing. I was not aware of any Pullman car of this era that used aluminum over steel; the Geo. M. Pullman was full aluminum construction, as I think were the various UP streamliner Pullmans of this era (please, someone check Kratville), and the stuff chief engineer Parke describes in the 1939 SAE paper was Cor-Ten framed with stainless panels clipped on, the structure that has not 'worn well' in preserved equipment.
If you have detailed sources, ideally with photographs or detail drawings, that substantiate aluminum for Muskingum River, please provide them. You would not have said 'aluminium' without good cause.
Overmod Well, there was a future after Normandie: it included the United States (far faster) and the France. These partook directly of the 'streamlined' style that characterized so many of our postwar 'luxury' trains. Think carefully about why Normandie was not promptly floated and restored after the fire. (And it is interesting to think about the interiors that would have been built into [url=https://oceanlinersblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/22/the-ships-that-never-sailed-part-2/] Yourkevitch's version of the Bretagne, Blue Riband speed and 100,000+ tons at the same time...)
Well, there was a future after Normandie: it included the United States (far faster) and the France. These partook directly of the 'streamlined' style that characterized so many of our postwar 'luxury' trains. Think carefully about why Normandie was not promptly floated and restored after the fire. (And it is interesting to think about the interiors that would have been built into [url=https://oceanlinersblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/22/the-ships-that-never-sailed-part-2/] Yourkevitch's version of the Bretagne, Blue Riband speed and 100,000+ tons at the same time...)
How could I forget the Big U and SS France of 1961 my dear friend? But I skipped them in my previous post because they were not fabulous enough for my taste. There were really fast and modern at the time but the styling of the late-1950s is not my cup of tea. I would have jumped on the SS France of 1910, a much older and slower four funnel steam liner instead of the new SS France if I could travel back in time. But RMS Lusitania is still my favorite four tunnel steam liner.
Regarding the total loss of SS Normandie, I believe there are some reasons why you raise the question in this way. So, besides all the historical facts and official answers, please let me think out of the box for once. Allow me put it in this way: was it possible that Charles de Gaulle or the Franco-British Union administration actually wanted to get rid of the USS Lafayette (Normandie) instead of saving it? SS Normandie was never a commercial success; relied on government’s subsidies since day one, it was, and it would be a major negative equity of "The Government of the French in exile"; Let alone she already lost the Blue Ribbon to Queen Mary before the Battle of France, even though the Normandie had already been equipped with new propellers and various mechanical upgrades.
On the other hand, French folks needed the help from British to reclaim the WHOLE nation from the Nazi, there was no point to keep a ship that would have continuously compete with British ship the Queen Mary after the war. Sinking the USS Lafayette on purpose probably was an unofficial deal between Charles de Gaulle, Churchill and the British monarch at the time; which was 68,500 tons of steel, tons of luxury furniture, fittings and equipment. These were some of the best material "the Government of French in exile" could offer.
The best way, or probably the only way to find an excuse to scrap the SS Normandie was creating an accident since it would have triggered or disheartened the France folks or even the general public in the States.
The never-built SS Bretagne’s “radical design” by Vladimir Yourkevitch would have been a success if the French Line corrected all the mistakes they had made on the SS Normandie. Increase the proportion of 2nd Class capacity and improve the quality of facilities for lower class passengers. But the conventional design was chosen; I see it a totally wasting of time.
Norman Bel Geddes 's streamlined ocean liner
Overmod You're forgetting that there was an intermediate stage between Juan Trippe' flying boats and Freddy Laker: the whole stillborn SST revolution that was developing even before the 707 and its ilk became competitive to long-distance trains.
You're forgetting that there was an intermediate stage between Juan Trippe' flying boats and Freddy Laker: the whole stillborn SST revolution that was developing even before the 707 and its ilk became competitive to long-distance trains.
The development history of civil aviation is not something I am good at or very interested in. However, I still have this thought that Class I railroad on the North East didn’t try hard enough to compete with all kinds of transportation including the Airlines. Despite tons of resources gained from the wartime traffic, we couldn’t see any innovative transportation project like the Weems Electric Railway you shared with us (thanks). We discussed the reason on this topic before which included the US government’s post-war transport policy and different limitations, mechanically and financially of different RRs system. But I am still Up in arms about the demise of long-distance passenger train services in the States.
In short, I wish there was an HSR being built in the 1940s, connecting Chicago, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C., New York and Boston for my beautiful, fabulous S1, T1, S2, Streamlined K4s, Super M1c, PRR R2 etc to show off their speed!
Norman Bel Geddes 's seaplane
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
One of a kind, PRR P85C #4045
Publicity photo
Collection of Stephen A. ThomasIn 1940 New York World Fair before purchased by Pennsy.
Jones1945 Collection of Stephen A. Thomas
Collection of Stephen A. Thomas
This deserves a little more recognition in context, especially with PRR building specific high-speed coaches 'for itself' in this era (about which I hope Mr. Klepper, for one, will add some comment).
Here is Pressed Steel advertising its premier product in 1940. Their production of passenger cars was shut down by the WPB in 1942, but something interesting was that they never resumed domestic passenger-car production, even for the 'streamliner boom' of the 1940s.
There is an 'accounting' of Pressed Steel production in this PDF.
Thank you for the detailed and informative response, Overmod. I note post-war trucks (GSC 41-N-XX?) were used on the demo car in the 1939-40 World Fair, while Pullman's products were still using GSC 43-R passenger truck. The design of mini-skirt streamlining and the wider but shorter window was also adopted on PRR's post-war P85b passenger car. Judging by its high capacity, I guess the demo car was assigned to the highest demand all-coach trains after it was bought by Pennsy. Let see if I can find one more pic of it in service!
PRR Betterman car P70KR (1939)
Pressed Steel Car Company, PRR P85C (1940)
PRR P85B (1948)
Source: http://prr.railfan.net
Some photos of prime power of the "Fleet of Modernism" at the Lima Station:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjyoungjr/33063303950/in/album-72157645605285036/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjyoungjr/33447106005/in/album-72157645605285036/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjyoungjr/33448637165/in/album-72157645605285036/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjyoungjr/32528206483/in/album-72157645605285036/
Thank you for watching.
Great photo album link. The lineup of power at Cincinnati Union is amazing. Really captures an era.
The photo of the T1 hauling frieght 'down in the weeds on the low line' is stunning. 55?9 looks to be in superb condition, not all banged up and holes poked all over the place. Haunting images. Could study these pictures for hours. Really like the Columbus Ohio station picture with the NYC and PRR locos all over the place. Busy spot!
Very little, even many of the Diesels, survived much longer after these photos. Some show T1's and Q2's already in dead lines. PRR Erie builds, Centipedes, Sharks both freight and giant passenger versions all on borrowed time really, looking for a place to fit and be useful.
Sometimes I wonder if among other things one of the reasons the PRR got in money trouble after the war was their going absolutely nuts buying diesels from everyone who had one for sale. EMD, Baldwin, ALCO, Fairbanks-Morse, you name it, and in a big way, instead of just buying a few of each for evalutation and then going for the best that suited their purposes.
The Norfolk & Western profited by the Pennsy's example. When the time came they bought Geeps and didn't bother with any other road diesels. Any other diesels the N&W wound up with usually came by way of merger with other 'roads.
Oh well. At least the Northeastern railfans got a great show when many of the PRR "also-rans" wound up hauling commuters on the North Jersey Coast Line.
That's also where the K4 Pacifics made their "last stand."
Miningman Great photo album link. The lineup of power at Cincinnati Union is amazing. Really captures an era... Very little, even many of the Diesels, survived much longer after these photos. Some show T1's and Q2's already in dead lines. PRR Erie builds, Centipedes, Sharks both freight and giant passenger versions all on borrowed time really, looking for a place to fit and be useful.
Great photo album link. The lineup of power at Cincinnati Union is amazing. Really captures an era...
Yes, that is a very good photo album on Flickr with tons of photos of B&O, C&O, PRR, NYC, N&W... etc. If Pennsy kept using their T1s and Q2s, I believe they would have had a longer service life than all those diesel engines you mentioned!
Flintlock76 Sometimes I wonder if among other things one of the reasons the PRR got in money trouble after the war was their going absolutely nuts buying diesels from everyone who had one for sale. EMD, Baldwin, ALCO, Fairbanks-Morse, you name it, and in a big way, instead of just buying a few of each for evalutation and then going for the best that suited their purposes.
I always want to calculate the total cost Pennsy spent on Erie-builts, Centipedes, Alco PAs, Sharks and compare to the operation cost of T1s and Q2s assuming they continued serving until the late 1960s to find out which appoach was more expensive. But I am too lazy to gather all the data for a meaningful answer.
Anyway, problems of 52 T1s were solved as early as 1947 which is equal to 338000 DBHP, 104 units of K4s or 169 units of a 2000hp diesel engine! 26 units of Q2 equal to 202800 DBHP or 102 units of a 2000hp diesel engine.
Jones1945I always want to calculate the total cost Pennsy spent on Erie-builts, Centipedes, Alco PAs, Sharks and compare to the operation cost of T1s and Q2s assuming they continued serving until the late 1960s to find out which appoach was more expensive. But I am too lazy to gather all the data for a meaningful answer. Anyway, problems of 52 T1s were solved as early as 1947 which is equal to 338000 DBHP, 104 units of K4s or 169 units of a 2000hp diesel engine! 26 units of Q2 equal to 202800 DBHP or 102 units of a 2000hp diesel engine.
On a HP basis you may have something, however, on a availability basis even as bad as the non-EMD locomotives were, they were hands down more available than any steam locomotives.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The fact the PRR was a cripple, lost its identity under Penn Central and promptly went bankrupt says it all. Diesels did not save them. Some say it postponed the end but I say bullocks to that. They would have done better retaining modern steam, merging with N&W and held out for 10 or 15 years before Dieselization. The eventual outcome could not be any worse. They could have also defied the ICC , fight with delaying tactics in courts. What they gonna do.. send the Army? Nationalize all those assets? Just keep it going and to heck with them, give them lip service or pretend.
PRR started going south right after WW2. It's rather well known that it took an operating loss in 1946 but still paid a dividend, quite probably from income from N&W dividends received and foolish borrowing. Steam operations would have become more expensive as suppliers left the parts business and replacement parts became custom (expensive) orders. Aside from the J-1's and M-1's, PRR did not have a lot of modern steam. A merger with N&W in the ICC regulation era would have been a legal ordeal and was probably unlikely. Defying the ICC was not a viable legal or political option. Poor management was also a factor.
CSSHEGEWISCH-- All true, no doubt. If you listen to the lecture by Al Churella ( found on the thread ' Al Churella on the PRR and why it was different') you will hear that they actually went quite rouge and ignored what they were obligated and ordered to do by legislative bodies. They just went ahead and did it anyway.
Its interesting to think if there was a path forward for the PRR after the war. There must be one scenario that works and keeps the PRR whole. Also I suppose today's Norfolk Southern could be somewhat what the PRR becomes. No Penn Central, no Conrail, ever happens. Still the PRR.
With 20/20 hindsight we can put together some way they survive.
Miningman...retaining modern steam, merging with N&W and held out for 10 or 15 years before Dieselization.
How would this have changed the processes and culture that led up to the demise of the PRR? If something was causing decay that provided an impetus to the changes you propose, what about what you propose would have altered the circumstances leading to its eventual demise? What would have been forestalled that hadn't been obviously 'coming' for about a decade already?
Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning.
I once thought about making a list of mistakes PRR made from the 1939 to 1949 base on my hindsight, but we already discussed this topic extensively with experts like Overmod and many forumers who knows the history of Pennsy not long ago.
There is at least one new point worth mentioning; I believe many Pennsy fans in this forum already noticed that there is a new conclusion made by a very well experienced railroader and scholar from the UK that the Franklin poppet valve gear could barely improve the performance of PRR's duplexes but engine like the rebuilt K4s #5399 by Lima. As one of the most resourceful and the largest railroad in the world, it is too hard for me to believe that not even a single mechanical engineer or officials worked for PRR noticed and pointed out such problem at the time.
While maintenance cost of the whole fleet was an astronomical bill needed to be settled every single month, so much money was wasted for fixing things like the (almost useless) Franklin type A poppet valve gear and the problems it created. Mitigation measures like purchases of the early problematic diesel engine to replace those brand new duplex accidentally and unexpectedly wasted even more time and resources of PRR.
When dealing with the rapid decline of LD train service, Pennsy didn't have any innovative idea which matches its status in the railroading industry; what they did was to canceling train after train; but I don't blame them, since it was the only way out for PRR and many other railroads, under the shadow of post-war US's transportation policy... and let's not forget that it was the people of America who abandoned our fallen flags; it was the government who encouraged people to use the highway and airport, to own a car, a truck and take the bus...
Well it's just simply keeping doing what they are best at, and avoiding all that expense laid out in all those crappy Diesels that were very expensive in every way conceivable. With closer ties to the N&W the coal business would stay very viable for some time. They could have adopted N&W practice of lubritorioums and advanced steam technology. The bugs in the T1's were mostly worked out. Throwing a 65 million dollar investment in perfectly good Duplexii into the furnace and blowing another huge wad of cash on essentaially untested and rushed to market Diesels from several builders made it all worse.
Don't let Stuart Sauders anywhere near any door on either property. Form a strong alliance with N&W, steam and coal based and get on with the show. The PRR was different. So was the N&W, until dingbat arrived.
If any of that could have happened it would be the PRR that could have pulled this off. Could be wishful thinking on my part and it's all pie in the sky nonsense but the path they went on led straight to extinction.
See also prior comment. With the passage of time and hindsight we can put together different scenarios.
Why didn't the Pennsy adopt the successful, and more than successful steam operating practices of the N&W, up to and including buying Class J's when they needed a new passenger locomotive?
Well, this subject came up several years ago on the C-T Forum, and my theory at the time, which I still hold, is it was simple foolish pride on the PRR's part.
I think the "powers that were" at the PRR just couldn't bring themselves to admit that those "hillbillies" down in Roanoke were just plain better at designing, building, and running steam locomotives than they, the PRR, were.
I can imagine the huffing and puffing in Philadelphia...
"How can this be? We're the Pennsylvania Railroad! The "Standard Railroad Of The World!"
As the saying goes, "Pride goeth before a fall," but obviously not in this case.
Am I wrong? I don't think so.
Thanks Firelock. No doubt that was a part of it.
Not very old.
Anytime Miningman! That is kind of a sad sight though, that ALCO PA carcass on the way to joing the fraternity of Pi Kappa Scrappa.
Ever read Rush Loving's "The Men Who Loved Trains?" The description of the upper echelons of the PRR during the lead-up to the merger with the NYC had me scratching my head in disbelief. Turf-wars, private fiefdoms with egos to match, all of them acting like members of the Order Of The Garter instead of professional railroaders. They all should have been thrown out! Just incredible!
Hence my "too proud to admit there's another way" theory concerning the bunch.
Flintlock76 Why didn't the Pennsy adopt the successful, and more than successful steam operating practices of the N&W, up to and including buying Class J's when they needed a new passenger locomotive? Well, this subject came up several years ago on the C-T Forum, and my theory at the time, which I still hold, is it was simple foolish pride on the PRR's part.
In some books, PRR officials were described as arrogant and unfriendly by other RRs officials. I don't have any solid evidence to confirm that but judging from how they execute the development plan of the duplex and their unrealistic optimism to Franklin, Baldwin and Alco's early product, It is not hard to understand that it was Union Pacific and Santa Fe who survived much longer but not PRR or even the NYCentral. But as a Pannsy (non-die-hard) fans I get used to Pennsy's management style every time I review their history, just like people get used of their wife or husband's behavior.
Flintlock76Anytime Miningman! That is kind of a sad sight though, that ALCO PA carcass on the way to joing the fraternity of Pi Kappa Scrappa. Ever read Rush Loving's "The Men Who Loved Trains?" The description of the upper echelons of the PRR during the lead-up to the merger with the NYC had me scratching my head in disbelief. Turf-wars, private fiefdoms with egos to match, all of them acting like members of the Order Of The Garter instead of professional railroaders. They all should have been thrown out! Just incredible! Hence my "too proud to admit there's another way" theory concerning the bunch.
To a somewhat lesser degree - all that infighting still exists in today's railroads. It exists in any large layered hierarchy - just look the governments of the world.
'
How do you explain this? A whopping 17.5% freight rate increase, record income and business.. nothing here makes sense.
MiningmanHow do you explain this? A whopping 17.5% freight rate increase, record income and business.. nothing here makes sense.
How do I explain it - PRR making a narrative with its financial statement against ICC regulations and other forms of governmental oversight. Sharp pencils create the story that the boss wants to present.
How shall I put it?
Who benefited the most from the PRR's first loss as well as its demise which came afterward?
Would PRR, the largest RR in the world have survived if the government didn't milk the RRs like cows?
Do you think all these RRs of Northeast could have done something to stop the government from building the highway and airport; people buying their own cars and trucks for various purposes; the traveler who takes the plane, traveling on the sky with the family or taking the bus for a cheap mid-distance trip?
If PRR purchased 76 N&W Class J instead of T1, how much longer do you think these engine would have served compared to the T1s and N&W's steam engine?
"Who benefited from the PRR's first loss as well as its demise..."
I can't imagine who.
"Would the PRR have survived...if the government hadn't milked the railroads like cows?"
Interesting question. Politicians milking businesses up North was one of the contributing factors that led to the "Rust Belt" phenomenon, which affected the PRR as well as a number of other 'roads. Not the only factor mind you, but an important one.
"Do you think all the RR's in the Northeast could have done something..."
No.
"If the PRR had purchased 76 Class J's..."
Ah, now we're on to something. They certainly would have saved a hell of a lot of money by not developing something new and totally radical by PRR standards like the T-1. Whether they would have spent the money saved wisely is another matter.
How long they would have operated those Class J's is anyone's guess. Theoretically the Class J's on the N&W could have been operated as late as 1965, maybe 1970, but then environmental laws coming into effect in the 1970's would certainly have put an end to mainline steam for anything other than excursion purposes unless the steamers in use were given a "grandfather" type exemption, i.e. "OK, you can use them until they're worn out and due for replacement, but no new ones!" Kind of like the "grandfather" exemptions the ICC gave to 'roads that used "Camelback" type locomotives.
Oh, I like that picture of the "Fleet of Modernism" train heading off into the sunset! It doesn't matter if that sunset is literal or figural, it's still cool!
Good film! Thanks for posting Balt!
They've done some good stuff on Pennsylvania Public Television. One classic is "Pennsyvania Diner," but watching that one'll make you hungry, trust me!
Well OK, here it is, from the 1990's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmoDYCyB5kM
It's about an hour-and-a-half long, so you may want to take it in small "bites."
The N&W was primarily a coal conveyor and their steam was suited for the purpose. PRR's efforts were primarily toward a general freight RR. I don't see how N&W's practices would have translated to PRR.
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