Backshop If the online cities aren't behind it, why is Amtrak even suggesting it?
If the online cities aren't behind it, why is Amtrak even suggesting it?
Together in 2015, they requested that Amtrak do a feasibility study. This confidential report can be found on i-20corridorcouncil.com It found that a daily train from Meridian, MS to Fort Worth, TX and back would result in 107,000 annual passengers and would have a positive cash flow, meaning that no payments were required by the states.
The 531 mile schedule westward was Meridian 3:18 pm CT, Jackson 5:01, Vicksburg 5:55, Monroe, Ruston, Shreveport 9:22, Marshall 10:31, Longview 10:58, Mineola.11:49, Dallas 1:22 am, Fort Worth 2:34 am. The schedule eastward was Fort Worth 11:00 pm CT, Dallas 11:57 pm, Mineola 1:32 am, Longview 2:21, Marshall 3:08, Shreveport 4:17, Ruston, Monroe, Vicksburg 7:19, Jackson 8:13, Meridian 10:16. Note that stops at Monroe and Ruston were added later in 2017.
In looking at the ‘City of New Orleans’ schedule, it would appear that that the dogleg Dallas to/from New Orleans could be good. The dogleg Dallas to/from Memphis would require a wait. The dogleg Atlanta to Memphis could be good, but the dogleg Memphis to Atlanta looks bad. Doglegs Little Rock to/from New Orleans/Atlanta also look bad. San Antonio/Oklahoma eastward requires a wait, and westward to San Antonio/Oklahoma requires lodging for the night.
In 2017 TXDOT with consultants analyzed what was required to get an Amtrak train operating from Meridian to Fort Worth. 21 miles of sidings with a cost of $84 million and $7.5 million in new or improved stations was the conclusion.
Fast forward to 2022, Amtrak has money from the IIJA, an understanding of cooperation from Canadian Pacific, and a shovel ready project. Amtrak also has plans for rail projects around Atlanta and the Dallas Houston San Antonio triangle. Get this one done, lavish praise on CP and UP for their cooperation, thank the governors, senators, mayors, and organizations for their support, and go on to the next project. Let the newspapers be filled with good news and accomplishments.
https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/be785d40/files/uploaded/DFW%20to%20Meridian%20Passenger%20Rail%20Study.pdf
BackshopIf the online cities aren't behind it, why is Amtrak even suggesting it?
I have no idea. I can't even interest anyone in my neighborhood in the route. Most of the folks here are resettled from Midwest. We have a chunk from Hurricane Katrina - New Orleans. Some interest in the Casinos in Shreveport but most would rather drive or take a bus than a once a day train. Of all the stops on the route Shreveport, LA would be the biggest draw depending on timing of train. The popularity of Dallas to Atlanta by air I think has more to do with Atlanta being a hub for Delta then Atlanta being a final destination.
My guess as I said before is it patches a hole in Amtraks reservations system when some of the other trains get full, this route opens up some new alternate routings.....though most of them are dog leg routings, some people do not care.
rdamon I look at this as more of a replacement for regional service from AA or DL to DFW or ATL from the cities in between. As mentioned there are many options to get between DFW/DAL and ATL that take far less than a day. If they build this they should drop the essential air service subsidy to these cities. With the current pilot shortage service to tier 3 markets is getting dropped.
I look at this as more of a replacement for regional service from AA or DL to DFW or ATL from the cities in between. As mentioned there are many options to get between DFW/DAL and ATL that take far less than a day.
If they build this they should drop the essential air service subsidy to these cities.
With the current pilot shortage service to tier 3 markets is getting dropped.
To be honest, it is completely an Amtrak initiative. Nobody in Dallas or Fort Worth is really asking for this train. There is no grass roots groups behind it in Dallas either (like with the Texas Eagle or Heartland Flyer). So I would be surprised if Amtrak launches it since one of their criteria for new trains is local support.
Dallas is too busy building it's own passenger rail empire to bother with Amtrak. I-20 between DAL and FTW is intended to be the new right of way for a 150 mph train or faster according to both city councils. Which they stated they would like to build regardless of what happens with the Dallas to Houston Texas Central line.
Additionally, they are blowing close to a Billion to pull the single track Cotton Belt line out of the mud and weeds and double track and signal it between DFW airport and Plano, TX or Wylie. The so called DART Silver Line. They just had preliminary talks with Plano and McKinney, TX in Feb 2022, to potentially build a spur off that between Plano and McKinney and sometime in the future.....points north (Sherman or Dennison?). There is a lot of grass roots support for this spur line they are discussing and it would use the same Stadler cars as the SILVER LINE. However some intermediate cities are balking about paying the full DART fee. So they might use a regional rail construct outside of DART for it to get every city on board with funding it.
Some discussion on using the North-South, BNSF (ex-FRISCO) as a TRE extension from Irving up to Frisco, TX and Prosper, TX. It has a nice wye with the existing East West TRE line in place in Irving, TX. We'll see if that gathers steam as a new commute line. No real grass roots support for that new line on BNSF either. Though my take is BNSF would like to see it happen as the route is not a heavily trafficed line, only a few trains a day.
blue streak 1 charlie hebdo So how long would it take ATL to DAL? Too long to compete with air or Interstate? It sounds like not enough on the west end to generate much intermediate traffic and the route isn't scenic end to end. Playing around with possible running times. FTW <> Marshall = 4:40. Marshall <> Meridian (MEI) = 8:10. So FTW <> MEI round up to 13:00. MEI - ATL =`8:30. That gives ~ 22:00 to 23:00 FTW - ATL. Those times are going to make a schedule that will not please anyone. It is ~~ 5:00 between DAL and Shreveport (SHR). Very little passenger demand there. Just west of Vicksburg to MEI will be much slower going. What happens at MEI is certainly up in the air. I do not complely understand the latest congressional laws. Will the MEI - FTW have to connect to or become part of the Crescent? Can MEI <> NOL become a stub with Crescent prime to FTW? "IF" the FTW trains become extensions of the Crescent SHR - MEI will become mostly night time trains. What would be ideal would be for Crescent to be routed ATL - Montgomery - Mobile - NOL. Split the train at ATL and run new train to ATL - MEI - FTW. Stub train MEI - NOL. Re route would fill in one of the Mobile - NOL round trips with no layover of a Gulf train at Mobile. Pre Amtrak both routes from ATL were ~ the same enroute The Crescent would return to its early morning departure from NOL. All in all a scheduling nightmare. EDIT: How will the extension be able to cover single level sleepers no matter what schedule? EDIT #2: then Amtrak scheduling would try to make connections to Eagle north of Marshall and connections to City of NOL and new train both directions for both trains. Forgot about that quagmire.
charlie hebdo So how long would it take ATL to DAL? Too long to compete with air or Interstate? It sounds like not enough on the west end to generate much intermediate traffic and the route isn't scenic end to end.
So how long would it take ATL to DAL? Too long to compete with air or Interstate?
It sounds like not enough on the west end to generate much intermediate traffic and the route isn't scenic end to end.
Thank you. After reading all that, this proposed route seems like a waste of resources. I'd rather fly or even take a bus
BackshopPicking a random Wednesday, which is normally a slow day, I counted 17 nonstop flights on DL, AA and SW.
Dallas was formerly a Delta Airlines hub. It is not pain free to fly to Atlanta from DFW Airport. For one in you live in Dallas or East of Dallas you first have to drive a significant distance West to get to the airport for starters. Pay for parking which is not cheap (shuttle service sucks, cabs are pretty expensive due to the mileage, light rail has a rather slow path there at the moment).
In SW case having the plane arrive at Love Field is a definitely something I would compare with more than a flight to DFW. The price and time savings makes it a choice most folks in Dallas would make over DFW.
charlie hebdoWhat's on the way to a point two hours east of Dallas?
Dallas East to the Texas Border is roughly comparable to rural Nebraska in topography and lack of trees and population.......except just before Marshall is what they call "The Piney Woods" section of the state about 100-200 miles West of the LA border the track is surrounded by tall pines and woods and it stays like that across most of Louisiana......Black Bear country.
Amtrak in it's media comments refers to the route as "filling a hole" in the National Map. My interpretation of that phrase indicates to me they are more interested in the alternate routes it opens up on the Amtrak reservation system.
So for example when the Chicago to LA Chief fills up to capacity for someone traveling from DC that wanted a transcontinental trip, they can now be shifted to via Atlanta, Fort Worth, and the Sunset Limited. While not a short routing, Amtrak does this a lot with Chicago to Kansas City overflow traffic. Routes it Chicago to St. Louis and then connecting there with a train to KC.
If they can connect with the City of New Orleans it would open a third possibility from Fort Worth to Chicago. It would also connect Dallas with New Orleans in a dog leg fashion. Lots of folks from Dallas travel to New Orleans by car. All around the station stop in Shreveport is a winner as the Casinos there are very popular in Dallas, more so than the Casinos in OK.
So while I think Amtrak cares a little about what the train would carry among it's intermediate points. I think they want it more for connectivity to the National Network and alternate trip routings when a train or two fills up, they have an alternate to move you from point A to B that might not be optimal on a trip time basis but in some cases the customer doesn't care and Amtrak is not losing the revenue or the ability to fill more trains.
charlie hebdo How much traffic on I 20? How many flights Atlanta to Dallas?
How much traffic on I 20? How many flights Atlanta to Dallas?
BLS53 I see this route as being nothing more than a commuter route for small towns within an hour or so of either ATL or DFW. Few are going to ride this train the full route. Not enough scenery to satisfy the long range train fans.
I see this route as being nothing more than a commuter route for small towns within an hour or so of either ATL or DFW. Few are going to ride this train the full route. Not enough scenery to satisfy the long range train fans.
That makes it sound like a traffic pattern similar to the Erie between Chicago and New York. Almost no through passengers but a fair amount of local service to and from the terminal cities.
charlie hebdo What's on the way to a point two hours east of Dallas?
What's on the way to a point two hours east of Dallas?
BLS53see this route as being nothing more than a commuter route for small towns within an hour or so of either ATL or DFW. Few are going to ride this train the full route. Not enough scenery to satisfy the long range train fans.
I see this proposal as a way to realign rail sericw in the poorly served SE & SW. Attention should also be given to the NO section either splitting it at Meridian to NO and running it all the way to San Antonio or splitting it at Birmingham and then Montgomety-Mobile-NO-Housto-SA. The current Mobile-NO dispute will probaly dicate the route. The HEARTLAND FLYER would split from the SW CHIEF at Newton and run to Houston' The biggest adjustment would be to the TEXAS EAGLE which would bypass D-FW and run directly to Austin and SA where connections would be to the NO section of the CRESCENT. Daylight service would run across Arizona to LA. All sercice to be daily
The only places routes like this are practical, is where the highway is so congested, that it makes Amtrak a faster alternative. Eg. the northeast corrider. Or an Interstate Highway, directly between two major cities doesn't exist. Eg. Chicago-Kansas City.
Here is something I did not note until viewed the open railroad map. The route will require being on UP (old T&P) Shreveport, La (SHR)- - Marshall (~42 miles). That line is the some what busy UP line that goes to NOL. The KCS route west of SHR is entirely unsuitable IMO. It does not even go to Marshall. There does not appear to be any stations left on the route but JAN so, leave it to others to verify.
The Meridian problem of staged land barges waiting for crew to go north on NS already backs up #20 getting to MEI station. What complicates that is the trains off KCS inbound trains have to first get on the NS NONE district but transfers to the AGS district before reaching the MEI station. At least the route passes the western most present track to the station.
Meridian station will need 1 or 2 station tracks restored either to connect to Crescent or just reverse direction to FtWorth. As I remember there is space between present tracks and station.
The Jackson Ms station has a problem. The KCS tracks inbound from south can connect to the eastern platform of JAN station. However trainscannot connect at the north end as KCS tracks bend west just north of the station platform. West and North of station is CN yard (IC). The KCS route would need to use western most platform if even is still there. Otherwise would need to back up 1-1/2 mile to reach KCS tracks. Try to coordinate with CN. Originally there were 2 or 3 platforms west of the present JAN platform. All those station tracks part of the CN yard now. Except western most KCS track.
At one time the station waiting room was below tracks at street level and had a ped tunnel west bound to other platforms. Either blocked off or filled in have no idea. Definitely an access problem.
Vicksburg will need a new station as well.
The tracks are rather slow from Meridian to Vicksburg. Especially VIC. It is 135 I-20 miles and probably ~ 150 -155 rail miles. Cannot imagine an average train speed of over 35 MPH. So, including stops + VIC stop =5:00. Once over the Vicksburg MIssissippi river bridge runnung should average 50 - 60 MPH to FTW. Road miles I-20 392 probably 400 rail miles. 8:30 to 7:30 rail time
This adds up to about 12-1/2 hours - 13-1/2 hours enroute times. Had thought the distance was longer. That really messes up how timing can be for train especially west bound. The 750 +/- mile restrictions require more thought. Later!
If you want to see the track layour just use the link below and just zoom down to the 1 mile picture.
OpenRailwayMap
OvermodI-20 Corridor
You know that West of Dallas already DFW has it's eyes on the UP along I-20 from Dallas to Fort Worth
As far as I can tell, this follows the exact routing we were discussing a couple of months ago (in the discussion of additional service to Longview and Marshall) from Dallas/Ft.Worth turning onto the Meridian Speedway and thence onto the current Crescent route.
Here is the I-20 Corridor Council's graphic showing the intended route:
Apparently CP is on board with the idea (part of the CP-KCS merger arrangements) BUT what will we hear from the owner north of Meridian... note that this shows as a separate consist, neither the Texas Eagle nor the Crescent. So much for 'block switching' cars at Meridian... not that that was ever a reasonable idea in the first place. I wonder how short a headway the new train could use to get the two passenger consists through Atlanta in a minimum of time and length... my guess is that it wouldn't be short enough, even with CBTC...
Think the STB hearings over the Mobile extension were hot? Expect their counterpart for anything within 50 miles of Atlanta to be thermonuclear.
Just some news sources I found on this. Allegedly in priority this is next up at bat after they get resolution on the New Orleans - Mobile service arbitration in front of the STB.
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Proposed-Amtrak-route-Texas-atlanta-16771069.php
And ...
https://www.news-journal.com/news/business/local/amtrak-looks-to-expand-service-through-longview/article_7cfd29ea-c856-5f6a-928b-d963da5835e6.html
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