The Failure of Santa Fe Skyway (AT&SF) Airlines

[samfp1943]

charlie hebdo

Thank you for that input. It seems to me you identified the problem with the railroads running air services. For those early days, they had a lock on transcontinental service by using their Pullmans for the overnight legs.

 

  And You are ost welcome !

[charlie hebdo]

Thank you for that input. It seems to me you identified the problem with the railroads running air services. For those early days, they had a lock on transcontinental service by using their Pullmans for the overnight legs.

[samfp1943]

CMStPnP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9Dp4jmnLo

 

Atr the risk of elevating this 'Food Fight" to higher levels... Several years back , i HAD saimilar, topical Thread started on this Forum....Its genesis was some photographs from an 'aviation interest' publication of Santa Fe Skyways aircraft....

The airline at its inception was called " Santa Fe Skyways";  H.Q was originally to be in Wichita, Kansas.

 AIRCRAFT (1945) were to be War Surplus planes: a couple of  NAVY C-47 Types, (nee: Dougflas A/C- DC 3's )  and U.S.N.- C-54's (orig. 4 ea aircraft?(? )  

AT SOME POINT; "Santa Fe Skyways" was conceived to be a Transcontintal type link (?)...

S.F. Skyways, and another airline operator (A.T.A. WHICH WAS OPERATING EITHER FORD tRIMOTORS OR fOKKER Trri Motors(*?)  were to originally, cooperate by linking a train at the area of Buffalo, N.Y. with an existing long distance train (N.Y. C. RR. (?)        It was to be an overnight train (possibly to Chicago (?).   It was assumed that Santa Fe would assume the overnight rail travel at Chicago with their sleeper services; day time travel would be by Santa Fe Skyways aircraft. To change to night time travel at some point of the mail line to West Coast on AT&SF(?)

 [The day time travel would be by air link. The night time travel by rail (Pullman available?]

There was an airfield on the Santa Fe route to West coast in Oklahoma where the 'change in trans[ort would be made, and the travel to Los Angeles accomplished by appropriate changes in modes of transport. 

The operations of SFSkyways lasted until 1947  (THey were recorded as having  flown over two million, accident- free, miles while in existance.

To answer a couple of other questions on the Southern Pacific 'Airline' which operated in the post WWII environment....It was flying intra-state in California and and also to Hawaii.

Burlington Northern aIr freight flew from their main hub at Ft.Wayne, In. and they flew Boeing 707 type jets.

In 1940 The original C.A.B. ( Civil Aeronautics Board) was split from the CAA ( Civil Aeronautics Administration) ; By Pres. Roosevelt's Administration to handle the broad range of administration, and liscensing in the growing industry.

 [Unfortunately, The name of the airline that oerated oin conjunction with Santa Fe Skyways has been lost over time to various editing practices....It was A.T.A but the exact name has been lost.] samfp1943

[charlie hebdo]

Calling anyone's (mine, CMStPnP, etc.) comments "BS" is very rude and not what one expects from a graduate of NW.  Saying someone is wrong is civil.

However, you offer zero evidence in support of your opinion, just more assertions.

[greyhounds]

charlie hebdo

Simply uttering rude pejoratives does not give evidence that opinions of others are wrong, not does it demonstrate that yours is correct.

You call it rude. I call it pertinent and forceful.

 

And you can’t answer my questions, can you now.

 

When the government does something wrong, as in the case of Santa Fe Skyways, they should be called out forcefully.

The government shut down a growing enterprise that was meeting a market demand in a safe and efficient manner. They shut it down for no valid reason. That harmed the American economy and the American people.

That’s wrong, and I’ll call it wrong.

 

[charlie hebdo]

Simply uttering rude pejoratives does not give evidence that opinions of others are wrong, not does it demonstrate that yours is correct.

[greyhounds]

I call BS.

 

We’ve got two people defending an incredibly asinine government action.

 

The Santa Fe was trying to start an air freight service. The economic regulators shut them down. Now why? The service obviously served a market demand at a price that was acceptable to the customers. Why did the government morons think they knew better than the customers using the service? Nobody was forced to ship by Santa Fe Skyways. They shipped using the service because it was the best option available. And the government took it away. Oh, that’s brilliant. Not!

 

Oh, but things have changed since this happened, they say. Deregulation works now but it was needed when established, they say. BS. Just what changed? Why was there ever a need for the government to economically regulate air transport? They don’t say. Unless the government sticks its dirty nose into things there can be no monopoly with air transport. It’s going to be competitive.

And there was very little, if any, public demand for economic regulation of air transport.  

[CMStPnP]

charlie hebdo

Some folks ride the same hobby horse for years.  As you pointed out,  regulations didn't just appear out of the blue from some malevolent bureau. The trouble is the regs didn't keep up with structural changes in the economy. Some on here make the post hoc error. In this case the fact that deregulation of airlines in the late 70s was mostly good does not prove that regulation starting in the 30s with the CAA was bad.

I suspect some of that was residual attitudes from the early 1900's that all railroads were run by blood thirsty robber barrons that only wanted a monopoly.    That attitude I suspect was still around in the 1930's and possibly 1940's in the regulatory agencies.

The attitude originally sprung up by the wildcat ways some railroads used to finance construction.   Again cite the Milwaukee Road Predecessor Milwaukee and La Crosse railroad which was remembered into the 1910-1920 papers as the railroad that fleeced Wisconsin Farmers of their hard earned money and caused a lot of them to put up their farms to Sherriff sale.   I think that was the panic of 1857 and follow on bankruptcy (Civil War era) that wiped out most of the bonds it sold.   Memories are long when that sort of thing happens.

[charlie hebdo]

Some folks ride the same hobby horse for years. 

As you pointed out,  regulations didn't just appear out of the blue from some malevolent bureau. The trouble is the regs didn't keep up with structural changes in the economy. Some on here make the post hoc error. In this case the fact that deregulation of airlines in the late 70s was mostly good does not prove that regulation starting in the 30s with the CAA was bad.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Government regulation didn't just show up out of the blue.  It was based on Federal statutes passed by Congress and signed by the President in response to public pressure.

[greyhounds]

I'll repeat what I said on "Another Site":

I don't think Santa Fe Skyways "Failed".  It was destroyed by government economic regulators who didn't have a clue as to what they were doing.

Air freight was a relatively new service using new technology.  Technology that had been advanced rapidly due to WWII.  Why not allow an established freight carrier to provide the new service and use the new technology?  

The government did a similar thing with another new transportation technology.  Motor freight.  They blocked the development of intermodal container service.  

When regulatory actions such as these happened the people of the US got a less efficient transportation system.  And those people paid the price out of their income.

I'll add:

The effort to deregulate air transportation, along with all other modes, had a leader in Alfred Kahn. Kahn was a liberal Democrat who held high positions in the Carter Administration. He also had a PhD in economics. Carter put him in as the head of the Civil Aeronautics Board. The CAB regulated airline charges and service. In doing so it killed Santa Fe Skyways. For no good reason.

Kahn looked around and basically ask: “Why are we doing this?”  It made no sense. He actually led the effort to put his own government bureaucracy out of existence.  He deserves a statue or something similar for doing that.

 

So, the skies were freed, and we got FedEx, UPS Air, Southwest Airlines, etc. The costs of air transport went down. People and goods were much more “Free to move about the country.”

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/12/28/obit.kahn/index.html#:~:text=Kahn%20spearheaded%20the%20U.S.%20Airline%20Deregulation%20Act%20of,money%20and%20no%20new%20airlines%20were%20taking%20flight.

 

Edit to add.  A great quote from Kahn:

 

"I don't know one airplane from another.  To me, they're all marginal costs with wings."

 

[AMTRAKKER]

Unfortunately in reading, as in listening, most are reading only to reply, not to understand....

[charlie hebdo]

CMStPnP

 

 

Overmod

He meant Santa Fe Air Freight, mentioned later in the video.  That was founded around the time the Super C was in development, but was folded only a few years later. Add Quote to

 

 

Is this the way I communicate or are folks just skimming vs reading in depth.   I cannot tell but it happens a lot that my posts are misread.

 

Since you say many of your posts are misread, "perhaps the fault, dear Brutus, lies in...[yourself]."

[Overmod]

CMStPnP

Is this the way I communicate or are folks just skimming vs reading in depth.

Not everyone would have been watching the video all the way to the end, where Dibble threw in Santa Fe Air Freight as a kind of afterthought.  He did not say, but I thought it fairly clear that the '70s attempt failed for economic reasons alone, not interference from regulators.  There are people here, including greyhounds, who probably know in detail about it.

It took me a couple of readings to understand what the post about Burlington Northern Air Freight was actually saying; in fact I almost posted an answer about how the operation was different from Skyway before I realized he was commenting on why the ATSF 'forwarding' operation failed to thrive while BN's apparently did.

[CMStPnP]

Overmod

He meant Santa Fe Air Freight, mentioned later in the video.  That was founded around the time the Super C was in development, but was folded only a few years later. Add Quote to

Is this the way I communicate or are folks just skimming vs reading in depth.   I cannot tell but it happens a lot that my posts are misread.

[Overmod]

CSSHEGEWISCH

I believe that Burlington Northern Air Freight was a forwarder and did not operate its own aircraft, unlike Santa Fe Skyways...

He meant Santa Fe Air Freight, mentioned later in the video.  That was founded around the time the Super C was in development, but was folded only a few years later.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I believe that Burlington Northern Air Freight was a forwarder and did not operate its own aircraft, unlike Santa Fe Skyways and Boston & Maine Airways (which became Northeast Airlines, later absorbed by Delta).

[CMStPnP]

.

[CMStPnP]

Overmod

Mr. Dibble also mentioned the regrettable case of Boston & Maine Airways, which was destroyed by the same passive-aggressive Government intervention. Throwaway line near the end of the video that I thought almost merited its own investigation: prior to the CAB denial, Skyway was investigating jet freight service.  That would have to be with Comets, and the possibility of running hub-and-spoke express with feeder aircraft (or even rail) and longer high-speed trunk between the local hubs then nearly immediately presents itself. The other needs-more-investigation point was the use of aircraft in facilitating Stratovision-like coverage for train radio.  I'm certain ATSF would not have missed describing this in their applications to the CAB, and it would be interesting to see how someone like Mel Perry on the Model Railroader side would assess the specific equipment and technologies that were used.

I am kind of curious to know why Burlington Northern Air Freight succeeded and Santa Fe's attempt failed............was that CAB intervention as well?

[Overmod]

Mr. Dibble also mentioned the regrettable case of Boston & Maine Airways, which was destroyed by the same passive-aggressive Government intervention.

Throwaway line near the end of the video that I thought almost merited its own investigation: prior to the CAB denial, Skyway was investigating jet freight service.  That would have to be with Comets, and the possibility of running hub-and-spoke express with feeder aircraft (or even rail) and longer high-speed trunk between the local hubs then nearly immediately presents itself.

The other needs-more-investigation point was the use of aircraft in facilitating Stratovision-like coverage for train radio.  I'm certain ATSF would not have missed describing this in their applications to the CAB, and it would be interesting to see how someone like Mel Perry on the Model Railroader side would assess the specific equipment and technologies that were used.

[azrail]

More like strangulation by the CAB and the big airlines (AA, UAL, TWA)

[CMStPnP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9Dp4jmnLo