SD60MAC9500Having rode the DPM many times I understand its shortcomings. Yet what was the original plan for the DPM? It's original layout was to be a city wide service. The city of Detroit couldn't afford the total cost of the project. They concentrated it to the downtown core. So the issues it has arises from lack of funding..
Right so in order to say expand the legs outward and add more trains, the core system has to have far more capacity than it does now or else your wait times at the down town stations will shoot up (a problem DART is already hitting and needs to add another downtown route). I think it was always designed to be a mix between DPM at the core and larger but different rail in regards to the legs. Even with that design though, eventually your going to hit max very fast with a two car system on that small of a loop. I don't think it was ever intended to be City wide that would be prohibitively expensive and never approach the capacity or flexibility of a light rail system.
In other words, I don't think you can engineer your way out of the DPM limitations and it was always intended to be small and low capacity. Detroit was not the only city to implement a PM, two others have as well. Miami and Jacksonville have one as well. Jacksonvilles is also incomplete. Miami's is complete and only runs 4.4 miles. So in complete state the PM concept was meant to be small and run in multiple loops. It is still low capacity in Miami.
I have heard the Detroit City Council complaints that it was never completed and that is why it is not successful BUT I have my doubts that is a valid complaint and feel it is more CYA because they jumped onboard the PM without due dilligence because it was free money (similar to Wisconsin jumping on board the Talgo nonsense). Miami's was completed and Miami's is free as well and it has not reached ridership milestones in Miami. So the Detroit City Council is bitching about a system that even if it was complete would not work well and they would probably be in the same situation as Miami which has a much denser downtown than Detroit does.
They were smart to shift to light rail in my view. All around a better and more flexible solution.
CMStPnP SD60MAC9500 A better solution would have been to actually make the DPM (Detroit People Mover) a city wide transit system with connections to New Center and the current MCD (Michiagn Central Depot) Ford. However Detroit chose a poor time financially to have the People Mover installed.. One of the original proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover#Expansion DPM has multiple issues: 1. Very sharp curves downtown it operates at very restricted speed in some cases not much faster than a walking pace. DPM, top speed is 7-10 mph. 2. Transit police scarce if they exist at all, in fact no car operator either. It is fully automated which means your on your own for security and a Lot of folks will not ride it for that reason alone. 3. I believe it is restricted to just two cars per train which makes increasing capacity difficult. 4. Cost of the specialized guideway vs light rail.
SD60MAC9500 A better solution would have been to actually make the DPM (Detroit People Mover) a city wide transit system with connections to New Center and the current MCD (Michiagn Central Depot) Ford. However Detroit chose a poor time financially to have the People Mover installed.. One of the original proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover#Expansion
DPM has multiple issues:
1. Very sharp curves downtown it operates at very restricted speed in some cases not much faster than a walking pace. DPM, top speed is 7-10 mph.
2. Transit police scarce if they exist at all, in fact no car operator either. It is fully automated which means your on your own for security and a Lot of folks will not ride it for that reason alone.
3. I believe it is restricted to just two cars per train which makes increasing capacity difficult.
4. Cost of the specialized guideway vs light rail.
Having rode the DPM many times I understand its shortcomings. Yet what was the original plan for the DPM? It's original layout was to be a city wide service. The city of Detroit couldn't afford the total cost of the project. They concentrated it to the downtown core. So the issues it has arises from lack of funding..
SD60MAC9500A better solution would have been to actually make the DPM (Detroit People Mover) a city wide transit system with connections to New Center and the current MCD (Michiagn Central Depot) Ford. However Detroit chose a poor time financially to have the People Mover installed.. One of the original proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover#Expansion
MidlandMike I was always impressed by Phily's solution to their downtown train situation. They essentially linked two stub-ended terminals with a tunnel so the ex-Reading and ex-PRR trains could continue thru downtown. The ultimate solution for Detroit would be to tunnel between the MC depot and the the ex-GTW terminal and continue up the Dequindere Cut to the northern suburbs. It would solve a lot of problems. We can dream. As far as trains between Dearborn and MC station, there was long term plans for an Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter train. Michigan even purchased two dozen ex-Metra gallery cars, which have been in storage for years.
I was always impressed by Phily's solution to their downtown train situation. They essentially linked two stub-ended terminals with a tunnel so the ex-Reading and ex-PRR trains could continue thru downtown. The ultimate solution for Detroit would be to tunnel between the MC depot and the the ex-GTW terminal and continue up the Dequindere Cut to the northern suburbs. It would solve a lot of problems. We can dream.
As far as trains between Dearborn and MC station, there was long term plans for an Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter train. Michigan even purchased two dozen ex-Metra gallery cars, which have been in storage for years.
A better solution would have been to actually make the DPM (Detroit People Mover) a city wide transit system with connections to New Center and the current MCD (Michiagn Central Depot) Ford. However Detroit chose a poor time financially to have the People Mover installed..
daveklepperHey CM, Thanks! I live in Israel, but have membership in the American Legion, am xtill very interested in everything North American that interested me before moving here, continue to try to "push-the-button" with my scheme to cut Amtrak food-and-beverage losses while improving quality, etc. Thanks.
I think that can be done as well. They took a large step forwards in reducing pilferage by switching to cashless methods of payment. The loss of cash is always a problem with any food service operation. In my restaurant, I had at least 30-40% of the employees with their hands in the cash till in one form or another.
They are breaking their dining car offerings down in two offerings. First is overnight trains bundling them in with long corridor trains. Second is more than one overnight LD trains. That is their new approach but I have not seen the new dishes yet myself (if they are even out yet). I think they are angling eventually to drop the sit down dining car entirely on any trips 1 overnight or shorter and replace with cafe-lounge. Noticed the Texas Eagle they no longer tote a baggage car but instead use the Superliner Coach-Baggage on the trains that terminate in San Antonio and turn back there.
daveklepperIs there still a reasonable passenger-train Buffalo - Detroit shortcut, with the MC-Canada Southern gone?
I see little purpose in a direct Buffalo to Detroit routing vs. going via Toledo; isn't most of the congestion supposed to be west of there?
I repeat that it is a dirty shame the CASO was euthanized and then effectively cremated and its ashes strewn. But absent highly-rationalized customs procedures and controlled access, even with the CASO intact there wouldn't be a compelling reason to route passenger trains that way any more...
Maybe so, Backshop but I normally stay downtown on Oullette avenue- not much going on there. Fortunately I don't need to go to Windsor as often as I had to.
But regarding trains coming back to the Station:
Is there still a reasonable passenger-train Buffalo - Detroit shortcut, with the MC-Canada Southern gone? I recall the Lehigh Valley did have through Pullmans NY - Chicao via the Grand Trunk and CN, and even through coaches at college-break times, but (!) they went through Durand, not Detroit, and (2) does such a connection stilk exist?
I probably used the MC Detrout Station about 200 times in my life (so far?).
Hey CM, Thanks! I live in Israel, but have membership in the American Legion, am xtill very interested in everything North American that interested me before moving here, continue to try to "push-the-button" with my scheme to cut Amtrak food-and-beverage losses while improving quality, etc. Thanks.
MidlandMikeI have lived in Michigan for the last 50 years but never in Midland. The inspiration for my pen name came from the book Rails Across the Midlands which was about the lines around Ohio and the surrounding states including Michigan. I lived in Kalamazoo when I first moved to Michigan, but that is as close as I lived to Detroit. I live in northern Michigan about 200 miles away. Most of my info on Detroit comes from reading the Sunday Free Press. I passed thru MC Depot about 30 years ago when the Wolverine had a Toledo leg. The other connection to this story was that the refurbished Metra cars for the planned Detroit commuter trains were stored in my town. That is until the winter some vandals methodically went thru the cars and caused a half $million in damages. The cars were moved to the ex-AA end of track in Yuma, MI., where they can be seen on Google Maps satellite view.
Good you posted that, Hebdo was about to award you his "resident expert" forum title....lol.
I was aware of the MIDot cars there are youtube videos and print articles on them.
My Sister and Brother-in-law live in a Northern Detroit suburb. I also have two brothers in Phoenix, AZ. Another in Iowa. Extended family all over including Europe.
charlie hebdoyears ago but I wouldn't even offer an opinion about how it is now.
Well, good for you. Now stop trying to limit the discussion here with your foolish standards and quit your griping.
Your metric is absolute foolishness. The internet gives me extensive access to MiDOT studies, meeting minutes, etc. I don't have to live in a geographic area to have knowledge about it. Can you imagine not being able to forecast for an area Economically applying that standard? We would need to have what? 320 million Economists before we would have a reliable forecast because each of them would need to live in an exact area to forecast for it.
Also, I did not detract anything that MidlandMike contributed, I only added to it. So you want me to withhold my contribution entirely because I don't live in Michigan. So nobody here can talk about Virginia unless they live there currently? I have to say that it's a real stupid limitation on the conversation here to try and apply that standard. So is your "resident expert" standard. Get a life, it's an informal discussion board.
charlie hebdo Of course I knew Midland is in Michigan. But I suspect Mike knows the Detroit area today better than a person who lived around Metro Detroit almost 30 years ago. I lived in East Lansing for several years 30+ years ago but I wouldn't even offer an opinion about how it is now.
Of course I knew Midland is in Michigan. But I suspect Mike knows the Detroit area today better than a person who lived around Metro Detroit almost 30 years ago. I lived in East Lansing for several years 30+ years ago but I wouldn't even offer an opinion about how it is now.
I have lived in Michigan for the last 50 years but never in Midland. The inspiration for my pen name came from the book Rails Across the Midlands which was about the lines around Ohio and the surrounding states including Michigan. I lived in Kalamazoo when I first moved to Michigan, but that is as close as I lived to Detroit. I live in northern Michigan about 200 miles away. Most of my info on Detroit comes from reading the Sunday Free Press. I passed thru MC Depot about 30 years ago when the Wolverine had a Toledo leg. The other connection to this story was that the refurbished Metra cars for the planned Detroit commuter trains were stored in my town. That is until the winter some vandals methodically went thru the cars and caused a half $million in damages. The cars were moved to the ex-AA end of track in Yuma, MI., where they can be seen on Google Maps satellite view.
54light15 Detroit is a fascinating place- there's no end to interesting stuff. Unlike Windsor which is boring as hell.
Detroit is a fascinating place- there's no end to interesting stuff. Unlike Windsor which is boring as hell.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo Nearly 30 years ago? Could be many changes in that time, better or worse. Mike actually lives in Michigan. I thought everyone here knew Midland was a city in Michigan where DOW Chemical had it's HQ.......apparently you did not. It's a pretty big company to miss.
charlie hebdo Nearly 30 years ago? Could be many changes in that time, better or worse. Mike actually lives in Michigan.
Nearly 30 years ago? Could be many changes in that time, better or worse. Mike actually lives in Michigan.
I thought everyone here knew Midland was a city in Michigan where DOW Chemical had it's HQ.......apparently you did not. It's a pretty big company to miss.
54light15Maybe the Woodward avenue streetcar could be extended down Michigan avenue to Dearborn- On Michigan avenue right in front of the MC station you can see the remnants of paved-over streetcar tracks.
Detroits dream is to make Woodward Avenue the retail shopping Mecca it was prior to the late 1960 riots. Hence the original choice to connect New Center area with a street car. So it is possible they will extend it further, I doubt they will extend it all the way to Dearborn but possibly Dearborn city limits? Believe it or not Detroit still had a few outdoor movie theater screens in operation when I was there in the early 1990's. One of them was near the River Rouge Plant somewhere. Detroit has a lot of really cool stuff like that tucked around the city in places......it was never a complete ruin of a city.
They are already talking about some form of mass transit to MC Depot. So far talks on People Mover extension, Street Car or dedicated bus shuttle from downtown. No decision has been made or committed to yet as far as I know. Just talk.
Maybe the Woodward avenue streetcar could be extended down Michigan avenue to Dearborn- On Michigan avenue right in front of the MC station you can see the remnants of paved-over streetcar tracks.
MidlandMikeThey could do that, and something similar is done with Keystone service. The quickest I see the reverse turn-around at Phily is 10 minutes, although some are longer. With the slowdown, speed-up, extra 2-3 miles, and slow thru the wye, maybe add another 10 minutes. So it would add about 20 extra minutes for the trip.
Would they notice after the HSR improvements Chicago to Detroit also shortening the time? Not sure how that would work. However, Bill Ford mentioned at the initial rebuilding ceremony the Ford family wanted to see some rail passenger service restored to the MC Station. He did not specify though....so who knows. It would make sense from Dearborn because that is where the Ford HQ is, almost across the street from the Dearborn Amtrak Station. So almost a rail link there between two major Ford Office campus' So it makes sense he would mention that but then I think Amtrak currently discourages Dearborn to Detroit travel as too short of a trip?
If it was up to me I would also rebuild the GT riverfront station. Use the Dequindere Corridor as the approach and elevate the last few blocks and expand to 2-3 tracks. A station close into Ren Center would be even more convienent for commuter service a large portion of the GM HQ workers are from the Northern Suburbs......Richland Hills, etc. This second part is dreamland though as I don't think Detroit has the money for this with their other plans.
CMStPnP MidlandMike The current Wolverine corridor trains no longer pass by the station, taking a beltline around downtown to reach their suburban terminal. So what? The current Wolverine corridor trains use the former Michigan Central tracks to reach Detroit which also double as the approach tracks to the MC station, they still have a choice of serving MC station easily with little impact in time to the Wolverine Corridor, rail and wyes are all still in place and the trains are push-pull. ...
MidlandMike The current Wolverine corridor trains no longer pass by the station, taking a beltline around downtown to reach their suburban terminal.
So what?
The current Wolverine corridor trains use the former Michigan Central tracks to reach Detroit which also double as the approach tracks to the MC station, they still have a choice of serving MC station easily with little impact in time to the Wolverine Corridor, rail and wyes are all still in place and the trains are push-pull.
...
They could do that, and something similar is done with Keystone service. The quickest I see the reverse turn-around at Phily is 10 minutes, although some are longer. With the slowdown, speed-up, extra 2-3 miles, and slow thru the wye, maybe add another 10 minutes. So it would add about 20 extra minutes for the trip.
Look at GOOGLE EARTH, enter Detroit Amtrak Station and follow the tracks to the South, the first big rail junction you come to is the current tracks Amtrak comes into Detroit on from the West, they currently use a leg of a wye to veer left at the first wye instead of continuing straight. However if they did continue straight to the station it is no more than a mile or two to the MC Station and they have the reverse wye in place so they can pull into MC station, stop, reverse direction of the train and continue onto the current Wolverine Corridor stops. We are talking maybe a 1-1.5 mile each way detour off the existing corridor and train reversal, it is not a big deal to change the route to include MC station as a stop. They can reroute all the trains or just route the talked about Chicago to Toronto future service to stop at the station instead of serving the surbuban stops. They could also split the suburban train stops as a seperate route and terminate at MC station or even Dearborn / Ann Arbor. Lots of flexibility here because almost 90% of the rails serving MC Station are still in place.
MC Station is closer to downtown Detroit then New Center station and New Center station was never intended to be a permanent structure. It was built cheaply to PRE-FAB standards vs being built as a lasting structure. I worked at New Center when the station went up and remember the discussions. Detroit wants a concrete/brick and/or stone structure to replace New Center Station at some point with a clock tower.....that was the rough architecture they wanted to blend in more and be more self-sustaining as a depot with leased space. They did not have the money for that when the PRE-FAB was built for cheap but they also wanted a much better station at New Center than they have now.
The current Wolverine corridor trains no longer pass by the station, taking a beltline around downtown to reach their suburban terminal.
Judging from the YT comments on all three videos, it looks like people would really like the trains back in the building. It does make sense especially if cross-river service is ever started up again.
1st video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3k18JlBPb0
2nd video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR81Pqfwo30
1987 video before station closed and before vandals gutted it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Coj7QpA2H4
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.