Overmodisn't that part of the ex-Reading heavily freight-trafficked? Even using precision-scheduling during relevant dayparts that's likely to limit speed to well below NEC Regional levels, which may hamper perceived utility of the improvements.
Not sure how heavy the freight is, but it is CSX's entry from the south into NY City area. On the PA side it is double track and shared with SEPTA electrics. On the NJ side it is single track freight only to Bound Brook. So double tracking and electrifying the NJ side would mirror the PA side.
OvermodLikewise restoration and electrification from West Trenton to Bound Brook is laudable but would involve mostly New Jersey development for the benefit of Pennsylvanians.
The area seems to be suburbanizing, and at the former Belle Meade army depot it is becoming industrialized.
Occurs to me that much of the trackage in the Morrisville area is now severely underused, so a connection there might have relatively few 'political issues'. The problem I see is that it would almost certainly need Federal funding: the new connection is in SEPTA territory but primarily benefits through traffic.
Likewise restoration and electrification from West Trenton to Bound Brook is laudable but would involve mostly New Jersey development for the benefit of Pennsylvanians. If there were a bi-state agency set up between SEPTA and NJT for these services, the priorities and funding might be more directly arranged.
Personally I'd run the service with dual-modes (doesn't NJT already run ALP45-DPs on some of the Raritan Valley trains?) with hybrid and direct wayside storage provided instead of expensively building out new catenary immediately. Then island the catenary as demand, economics, and politics allow. There is a potential issue here, though: isn't that part of the ex-Reading heavily freight-trafficked? Even using precision-scheduling during relevant dayparts that's likely to limit speed to well below NEC Regional levels, which may hamper perceived utility of the improvements.
I thought the most serious of the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh electrification proposals was that from 1943 -- the one that features distinct wheel arrangements probably based on the 428A motors as used in the DD2. This as I recall also featured at least one long tunnel (~9800'?) proposed for the Horse Shoe area, for which at one time I even remember seeing proposed track routings (but subsequently lost the references and much of my memory is not to be trusted without corroboration).
That did not relieve the perceived need for electric helpers/snappers, though: as I recall, one of the planned engine types called for four 4-axle underframes (the motor-power equivalent of 4 DD2s)! It would be interesting to see the effect on wartime fluidity if sufficient electric substation power could be provided to support a fleet of those things...
An excellent idea
daveklepperAnd Midland Mike, your suggestion makes huge sense and would help relieve congestion on the most heavily used portion of the NEC. Something to consider after there are four Hudson River Tunnels in good operating condition. Jenkintown - NY commuters would have direct service restored. (Wall Street and Crusader)
I brought up a Morrisville connection only because it would involve a short re-electricification of about 5 miles. My real dream would be to re-double track the ex-Reading beyond West Trenton to its connection with NJT at Bound Brook, thence to Newark, and electrify the whole thing. It would mainly be used by NJT, but also by Keystone service, and would be an alternate route for Amtrak for NEC problems.
David, upon further investigation with google earth of course, I do see a tunnel that starts under 40th street on the eastbound side and comes up near Zoo tower and goes behind it. After riding into Phila. many times I don't believe I ever noticed the tunnel! Now I still believe going west the track was above ground and further behind Zoo. I remember going by and seeing under brush & trees take over and the track finally being torn up. I am not going to bet my life savings on it though!
G
Geoff, the eastbound track of the "New-York-Pittsburgh Subway" does remain intact, can be used in either direction, and is sometimes used by SEPTA and Amtrak for equipment moves.
At least that is the information that has been made available to me.
I used N. Philly as the most convenient transfer PRR/Amtrak - SEPTA ex-Reading lines. That was 50 - 30 years ago.
And Midland Mike, your suggestion makes huge sense and would help relieve congestion on the most heavily used portion of the NEC. Something to consider after there are four Hudson River Tunnels in good operating condition. Jenkintown - NY commuters would have direct service restored.
(Wall Street and Crusader)
[quote user="54light15"]
Did the Pennsy ever consider electrifying the line all the way to Pittsburgh?
Two former Pennsy Executives told me many years ago that the intent in the 1930's was to eventually go to Pittsburgh but WWII occurred. After the war it was considered again but now the physical plant needed heavy rebuilding. A secondary factor that also became an issue was some Pennsy coal suppliers who also were major coal shipping customers on the PRR. They were against it and said they would use other RR's to carry their coal. Then it became obvious diesel was going to eliminate steam and that was the end of extending it to Pittsburgh.
54light15Did the Pennsy ever consider electrifying the line all the way to Pittsburgh?
I understand it was considered but they couldn't figure out the financing.
They had gotten a special 'deal' from the govenment for a Deperssion Era public works job creation program for the electrification they did do. That financing was not available for an extension to Pittsburgh.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If they re-electrified the ex-PRR Trenton Cutoff between Morrisville and Woodbourne to connect the NEC with the ex-Reading SEPTA West Trenton line, the Keystone Service could run thru the downtown Phily connection, and emerge on the NEC at 30th Street Station pointed in the right direction for Harrisburg.
The track that Pennsylvania RR westbound trains used to use to bypass 30th Street going from N. Phila. to Paoli behind the "Zoo" interlocking is long gone, I would say 40 years. I can't imagine "Broadway Limited" patrons of yesterday getting on at N. Phila. today anyway! My son and I are going west from Harrisburg on the 17th so I hope you & us have a safe trip. By the way, food in the cafe car starts getting less plentiful as you get further west, say past Altoona. Keep that in mind if you want "dinner in the diner."
blue streak 1 Lithonia Operator When a lot of diesels run under catenary, does the exhaust have a negative effect on the cables? Someone figure out what is in the exhaust. I can think of soot, water vapor, co2, CO, maybe a little bit of acid? , What about DEF residual? , Any impurities that will combine into what.? Then you have to figure out what those items do to copper ? Will rain / snow clear most off the wires ?
Lithonia Operator When a lot of diesels run under catenary, does the exhaust have a negative effect on the cables?
When a lot of diesels run under catenary, does the exhaust have a negative effect on the cables?
Carbonic acid? (H2CO3) Would the solid carbon residue be conductive?
For a while, Amtrak did have one NY - Harrisburg (not Pittsburgh) round trip that did stop at N. Philly and use the "NY-Pittsburgh Subway" at Zoo Interlocking to bypass 30th Street. I was discontiniued years ago.
For a few years after start-up 1971, Anmtrak did run the Broadway that way also.
And the National Limited NY Section
Diesels running under catenary is an old situation, and steam even older.
According to the schedule, as well as my experience, No. 43 does not stop at North Philadelphia. It departs NYC at 10:52 am, with stops at Newark and Trenton before a 12:15 pm arrival at 30th Street Station. It is scheduled to departs 30th Street at 12:42 pm. The electric locomotive is changed out for the P42 at 30th Street.
When I lived in Altoona, which was more years ago than I care to remember, most of the PRR's east/west fleet stopped at North Philadelphia. With the exception of one or two trains, they did not go to 30th Street Station. Also, most of the New York to Washington trains stopped at North Philadelphia as well as 30th Street.
Today, few if any trains stop at North Philadelphia. It is surrounded by a high crime area, which I suspect is the underlying reason for eliminating North Philadelphia as a stop for most through trains.
Departing 30th Street the locomotive will be at the front of the train. The business class car was the last car on the train when I rode it in 2019. When you get on the train the seats will be facing the locomotive. Just grab what ever seats are available on the left-hand side facing forward. If there are no seats on the left-hand side, with the possible exception of a weekend or holiday, there probably will be after Harrisburg and most certainly will be after Altoona.
Yes; I believe the train still goes back up to North Philadelphia (of course it doesn't stop!) and turns for Harrisburg there, with engine leading, so 'left' would be with regard to 'engine front'.
This dates me... but the last time I stayed in Harrisburg, some of the Amfleet Keystone consists were still being turned on the wye.
As I recall, one of the points at 30th St. was to keep all the diesel power (both for Harrisburg and west and for the New Jersey stuff coming across the Delair Bridge) on that end of the station. You can work through the 'permutations' of where a cab car would have to be to maintain the stop-and-back-up needed to put Philadelphia as a stop between New York and Harrisburg.
I don't think there is any simpler alternative that doesn't involve dual-modes or a reversion to making the Philadelphia 'station' be North Philadelphia -- neither of which is a particularly attractive option.
When we get on this train in Philly, will the left side (based upon the engine being in the front) in Philly also be the left side once we're out on the road?
Still in training.
Apparently, one cannot reserve a particular seat on the Pennsylvanian.
"Reserved seating is available on Acela and in Business Class on Northeast Regional, Carolinian, Palmetto, and Vermonter."
https://www.amtrak.com/reserved-seating
JPS1 Lithonia Operator Thanks all. I think we got business class tickets. One more piece of advice. Sit on the left hand side of the car, especially after leaving Altoona. That will give you the best position to see the Horseshoe Curve.
Lithonia Operator Thanks all. I think we got business class tickets.
One more piece of advice. Sit on the left hand side of the car, especially after leaving Altoona. That will give you the best position to see the Horseshoe Curve.
That's been my plan from the start!! Absolutely. But you've got me wondering if I can choose seats in advance. I have never done that on a train before.
I would expect the friction from the pantograph to clear off any buildup as fast as it accumulates, especially on lines like the NEC where a small minority of trains are diesel powered.
The later years of the Milwaukee Road would probably be a good test case to examine if any data can be found, as they had more diesels than electrics during that time and are also not exactly known for their high maintenance standards.
Do the carbon shoes on trolley poles leave any buildup on the wire?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Lithonia OperatorWhen a lot of diesels run under catenary, does the exhaust have a negative effect on the cables?
None that I have ever heard of.
Thanks all. I think we got business class tickets.
Overmod Used to be diesel out of 30th St. with no engine change, if I recall correctly.
I rode the train from NYC to Pittsburgh in 2019. We rode backwards from Penn Station to 30th Street. From 30th Street to Pittsburgh we rode forward. The train, which had five cars, was pulled from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh by a P42.
The train had three coaches, a dinette, and a business class car. I recommend business class if one can swing it.
Correct. Since the train reverses at 30th St., expedient to change power there.
Same was done for the Broadway, befire it was descointinued.
Used to be diesel out of 30th St. Philadelphia to Pittsburgh with no engine change, if I recall correctly.
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