The variations mentioned on NP were the only ones that wer possible on that route. GN had a variety of variations between the Twin Cities and Minot involving the "Empire Builder", "Western Star", "Red River" and "Dakotan".
NP's North Coast Ltd ran via Butte, and the other ran via Helena. Not sure if there were other deviations beyond this relatively short one.
Erik_MagI'm not sure if there is much of a choice in terms of alternate routing in Montana, unless its alternating between the NP line and GN line between the Twin Cities and Sandpoint, ID. Glendive to Missoula would be a full day train ride, so two sets plus a couple of spare cars and a spare locomotive could handle the traffic, though a long range DMU would probably make even more sense. The cars or DMU's would need to be built to handle Montana winters - the doors on the Pacific Surfliner cars leak way to much air to be usable in -20F weather.
Glendive to Missoula would be a full day train ride, so two sets plus a couple of spare cars and a spare locomotive could handle the traffic, though a long range DMU would probably make even more sense. The cars or DMU's would need to be built to handle Montana winters - the doors on the Pacific Surfliner cars leak way to much air to be usable in -20F weather.
Back in the day, when GN & NP operated their own passenger operations didn't the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited operate on a routing that was different than their secondary runs The Western Star and The Mainstreeter? While the trains serviced the same O-D pairs, their internal routes served different locales.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm not sure if there is much of a choice in terms of alternate routing in Montana, unless its alternating between the NP line and GN line between the Twin Cities and Sandpoint, ID.
I like the idea charlie hebdo proposed, of alternating the intermediate routes on, say, a triweekly basis, so there is daily end-to-end 'network' service but still a train every couple of days to many more communities than before.
Erik_MagWith respect to using the Milw line, I see two big problems...
That's why I qualified it with "As long as we are dreaming,,,"
With respect to using the Milw line, I see two big problems. First is upgrading track and signaling for passenger service with several hundred miles of track that would likely need replacing from the subgrade up. OTOH, the alignment is pretty good, max curvature is 3 degrees. Second is that there aren't a lot of people people living on the line between Miles City and Aberdeen.
I think it would make more sense to use the old NP line to run east of Montana as that would serve Mandan and Bismark.
Terminating the western end of the run in Boise doesn't make a lot of sense, be better to bring back the SLC to Seattle train.
CMStPnP What would be really cool if they followed through on the connection to Boise, ID and Salt Lake City, UT
Can't imagine what utility a Salt Lake -Montana connection would serve.
As long as we are dreaming, how about the eastern connection from Montana, instead of continuing on the ex-NP thru North Dakota, to run over the ex-MILW thru South Dakota-- finally giving that state Amtrak service.
CMStPnPThis keeps happening over and over again so much it almost seems like a business strategy.
Be assured that it's wise to start with the highest estimates, both for scope and cost, that you can. There are many people eager to demonstrate their cost-cutting 'expertise' (or influence or authority) by cutting your proposal 'down to size' -- whether it merits it, or whether the cutting makes sense or not. It is also wise to leave both time and money available to be sure you can achieve what you intended -- this is not the dread Prime Directive it is for venture capitalism, but it's still bad form, and no fun at all, to have to answer to a Congressional committee about why 'their' money didn't get the job accomplished first time out.
Second time around, everyone's seen the idea, and jerked it around already. It's clearer what is, and what isn't, within the politically or economically achievable scope. In all probability many of the alternatives have been resolved, and more precise ideas about cost or scope incorporated into the 'plan'. To the extent there has to be 'horsetrading' or other action between politicians and the like, that will at least have been started by the time any iteration(s) are being shopped around.
It is very, very rare that you'll find the situation such that you can ask for much more money the second time around, no matter how convincing your justifications and proofs and pro forma sense is. On the other hand, no one ever complained that a 2000% inflation reduced to a 500% inflation doesn't look like some kind of 'sensible cost reduction' or 'relative bargain' ... unless they look carefully at the accounting.
OvermodI'll be interested in seeing what percentage is a one-time restoration expense, and what percentage is various kinds of 'structural' subsidy (in the same sense as structural unemployment).
I am of the opinion that Amtrak inflates these numbers way the hell out of the ballpark the first time a study is done or they let the host railroad run rampant with project add-ons. It always seems the second time around the numbers are rationalized and more accurate and a heck of a lot lower. This keeps happening over and over again so much it almost seems like a business strategy. I wonder.
CMStPnPSen Crapo (Montana) in another article stated the last time they ran the numbers in 2008 the figure was like $400 million just for restoration of service in Montana and he said in so many words.....no way could he get votes on something so expensive in the depths of a recession, so it was tabled.
I'll be interested in seeing what percentage is a one-time restoration expense, and what percentage is various kinds of 'structural' subsidy (in the same sense as structural unemployment).
Erik_MagThere might be something to be said of instituting more of a local service, stopping in places like Terry, Forsythe, Custer, Big Timber, etc,
I believe that Big Sky Rail Passenger group mentioned in Trains News Wire maybe considering the local service as a cheaper option than bringing the train all the way from Chicago and .Seattle and that would give them the flexibility as well to be all daylight and at a more convienent time range for the schedule. Not sure how that would work out as a connection with the Empire Builder or if they would just skip that completely. What would be really cool if they followed through on the connection to Boise, ID and Salt Lake City, UT (mentioned below)........now that would be an awesome ride on UP. It is all dream land until people see the costs though. Sen Crapo (Montana) in another article stated the last time they ran the numbers in 2008 the figure was like $400 million just for restoration of service in Montana and he said in so many words.....no way could he get votes on something so expensive in the depths of a recession, so it was tabled.
https://www.kpax.com/news/missoula-county/efforts-to-restore-amtrak-route-across-southern-montana-gains-momentum
charlie hebdo It was the North Coast Hiawatha, 42 years ago. Why not run the EB on the former NP route in Montana to serve more people?
It was the North Coast Hiawatha, 42 years ago. Why not run the EB on the former NP route in Montana to serve more people?
One problem is that part of the line to Butte has been out of service since 1983, though the original NP line though Helena is still in service.
What may a more serious problem is that the loadings on the NCH were pretty light. The Miles City Star published the number of passengers getting on or off at Miles City, with typical counts of 3 to 5 per day. West bound trains stopped about 8AM and east bound trains stopped after 5PM, so timing was good for traveling to other parts of Montana. Keep in mind that Mile City is the biggest city in Montana east of Billings.
There might be something to be said of instituting more of a local service, stopping in places like Terry, Forsythe, Custer, Big Timber, etc, which actually be longer spacing than the stops on the Surfliners - Glendive to Livingston is about the same distance as San Diego to San Luis Obispo.
conrailmanAmtrak would need more Superliners Cars to put New Trains on now. Its time too put in New Order of Superliners Cars.
Like the Chicago METRA Gallery cars the Superliner design is out of date and very old. It made sense probably in the 1950's and 1960's but is not as nice as what Siemens already has in it's catalog for two level sleeping cars. I say stick with Siemens as a builder and pick from their catalog vs trying to get someone to build a Superliner today. The Deluxe bedrooms are nicer on Siemens and have a seperate shower and seperate toilet. Economy bedrooms are downsized but I am willing to bet you can fit more Economy paying passengers per sleeping car so the revenue would be higher in that respect.
Amtrak would need more Superliners Cars to put New Trains on now. Its time too put in New Order of Superliners Cars.
Here's the link. It was the North Coast Hiawatha, 42 years ago. Why not run the EB on the former NP route in Montana to serve more people?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/us/montana-rural-railroad-amtrak.html
Link did not work to NYT story today using the North Coast Limited as an example of a rural passenger route of importance to rural towns and people.
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