CMStPnP : Jawohl on your first suggestion. The line from Bremerhaven-Lehe east to Cuxhaven was DMU (Triebwagen) for years and now is using hydrogen cell units successfully.
I've ridden on the Bombardier "Talent" DMUs in Germany and I really don't see why we can't have them here. Fast, quiet, comfortable with a drinks trolley. Candy butcher to use an old term, but still I think they would work out well on more rural VIA lines. They could run from Windsor to London for example and could be used to reopen service to Thunder Bay. Southern Tier in New York with all its college towns might be do-able.
The news wire article about record grain haulage today might have some intereting use. If this routing of the NCH actually went thru and the necessary upgrades happned then --------Maybe if BNSF and to a lesser extent UP would need extra capacity to haul all the freight. Charge the RRs track useage.
As you have posted the proposed routes is not up to the standards of the northern transcon. If transcon has too much traffic then using the revived NCH routes as an relief grain route to west coast might keep every thing fluid + the money to pay for NCH route ROW ?
CMStPnPPerhaps a third option is reusing an Amtrak LD or intercity ticket on a privately run tourist lines. ... Or meet the Grand Canyon, Railway in Winslow for delivery to the Grand Canyon Hotel?
I am guessing you meant Williams. However, the Santa Fe mainline bypassed Williams by about a half mile. Another problem is the inconvenient arrival hours for a tourist train connection.
blue streak 1 As you have posted the proposed routes is not up to the standards of the northern transcon. If transcon has too much traffic then using the revived NCH routes as an relief grain route to west coast might keep every thing fluid + the money to pay for NCH route ROW ?
The former North Coast Hiawatha route (via Helena, and excluding the route through Butte which is no longer all in service) is actually in better shape than it was in 1979 by far. East of Billings - given current traffic trends - is where there will be less and less interference for a passenger train as demand for coal wanes with key coal-fired generating plants in Minnesota and Michigan being replaced with natural gas or are being retired due to their age. West of Billings, MRL has plenty of traffic - including grain when there is a grain rush. The route is restricted to about 30 trains per day due to steep grades. The primary bottleneck is heavy coal and grain trains grinding up nearly 20 miles of 2.2 percent in a single track operation west of Helena. Bozeman pass (1.8% westbound) west of Livingston is challenging, too. Except for the tunnel atop the pass, Bozeman Pass was once double track, and could be relaid, but due to the serpentine nature of the railroad west of Helena, the cost to sufficiently enable the operation of a significant number of additional unit trains (not to mention superimposing a passenger train) would be huge - so much so that the sticker shock would doom any prospect for a passenger train. I'm not saying that not doing this will doom a passenger train, but it would simply mean that the schedule for the passenger train would lengthened to accommodate limited capacity on the steeper grades as a less-expensive alternative.
If it was known that there would be a sustained need for more capacity for heavy trains west of Billings, the least expensive alternative would be to upgrade the route from Mossmain (Laurel) to Shelby and west. Though just over 90 miles longer, it is cheaper to operate for heavy unit trains because helpers are not used (the maximum grade is only 1.3%, and this for only 3 miles, compared to grades of 2% or more on MRL and UP across the Blue Mountains).
In the summer of 2009, Mullan Tunnel collapsed on the MRL west of Helena putting the route out of service for a month. Almost all traffic was rerouted along the Empire Builder route, which was handling 45-50 trains daily. One day, 15 unit coal and grain trains operated west from Shelby. The grain trains operated with their normal complement of power for this route (4 "premium" locomotives, as BNSF called them at the time, usually C44s) and the coal trains - operating with 125 cars and just shy of 18,000 tons with four AC locomotives (the standard power of the MRL routing, but would require helper power at Livingston and Helena) - operated on the detour route without needing any additional power whatsoever. And, the following day in Seattle, the Empire Builder arrived on time.
The key to enhancing capacity is lack of grade, sufficient track infrastructure (Marias Pass is 2 MT CTC on the west slope), and an operation without time- and personnel-consuming power modifications. The Empire Builder route over the Continental Divide achieves all these requirements.
The wild card in all of this is the projected growth and what the railroads would state as necessary to handle it.
Mark Meyer
charlie hebdoCMStPnP : Jawohl on your first suggestion. The line from Bremerhaven-Lehe east to Cuxhaven was DMU (Triebwagen) for years and now is using hydrogen cell units successfully.
I believe there is also a private railway passenger train that runs along the Southernly part of the route but I have no clue what the hell these cars are (see link below).
https://www.stade-tourismus.de/en/moor-express/
Elbe Weser Bahn is 80% owned by the state of Niedersachsen and operates trains and buses in the area. They also operate container trains into the interior of Germany. The link is to the weekend tourist operation of these old VT 98 Schienenbusse (Railbuses) from Stade.
MidlandMikeI am guessing you meant Williams. However, the Santa Fe mainline bypassed Williams by about a half mile. Another problem is the inconvenient arrival hours for a tourist train connection.
Thats fine on both fronts. They do not need a cross platform connection with a nice hotel located there, they only need a stop and a shuttle to the hotel. From what I understand even if they used the rail connection to the Williams depot they would still need a shuttle bus to the hotel.
CMStPnP MidlandMike I am guessing you meant Williams. However, the Santa Fe mainline bypassed Williams by about a half mile. Another problem is the inconvenient arrival hours for a tourist train connection. Thats fine on both fronts. They do not need a cross platform connection with a nice hotel located there, they only need a stop and a shuttle to the hotel. From what I understand even if they used the rail connection to the Williams depot they would still need a shuttle bus to the hotel.
MidlandMike I am guessing you meant Williams. However, the Santa Fe mainline bypassed Williams by about a half mile. Another problem is the inconvenient arrival hours for a tourist train connection.
They could use Flagstaff station which would be about a 20 minute shuttle ride away. The hotel in Williams (owned by the same company that owns the tourist RR) is about 100 yards from the Williams depot platform, but it seemed less when we stayed there a few years ago.
"MidlandMike"]They could use Flagstaff station which would be about a 20 minute shuttle ride away. The hotel in Williams (owned by the same company that owns the tourist RR) is about 100 yards from the Williams depot platform, but it seemed less when we stayed there a few years ago.
More like an hour or more from Flagstaff station to Williams hotel or train station.
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diningcarMore like an hour or more from Flagstaff station to Williams hotel or train station.
I thought I remembered it as 20 miles, but I see by the map its 30 miles by I-40. Still I don't remember it as an hour.
charlie hebdo Hate to throw a wet blanket on potential rail traffic to the Grand Canyon, but that seems miniscule compared to corridor service through Ohio and beyond. Most people fly and rent a car or drive to the Grand Canyon as part of a larger number of tourist destinations.
Hate to throw a wet blanket on potential rail traffic to the Grand Canyon, but that seems miniscule compared to corridor service through Ohio and beyond. Most people fly and rent a car or drive to the Grand Canyon as part of a larger number of tourist destinations.
Day visitors must park at outlying lots and take shuttles thru the National Park. Only special needs can go by car. There was some talk by the NPS to use the train to bring people in from even further out lots.
The topic of the thread is rural passenger service.
"MidlandMike"]I thought I remembered it as 20 miles, but I see by the map its 30 miles by I-40. Still I don't remember it as an hour.
Both depots are downtown and the Flagstaff locations requires min 2o minutes to get to I-40. Then 10-20 minutes to get to Williams depot or depot hotel
MidlandMike charlie hebdo Hate to throw a wet blanket on potential rail traffic to the Grand Canyon, but that seems miniscule compared to corridor service through Ohio and beyond. Most people fly and rent a car or drive to the Grand Canyon as part of a larger number of tourist destinations. Day visitors must park at outlying lots and take shuttles thru the National Park. Only special needs can go by car. There was some talk by the NPS to use the train to bring people in from even further out lots. The topic of the thread is rural passenger service.
My error. Sorry.
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