SNCB RR ( Belgium ) is setting up 2 free rides a month for all citizens. This might be a way for Amtrak to really open up citizens to appreciate the RR. Amtrak could limit distance traveled and allow a one way free trip on one train at least 10 days apart.? Cannot book more than 48 hrs before to give Amtrak time to allow enough coaches when available.. No sleeper travel booking but could full fare upgrade when onboard train.
Follow separation requirements of the CDC, Governent could provide an amount close to the lowest fare. Could imagine that would possibly push for a revival of diner service?
This might compete very well against the airlines loss leader fares.
https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/main-line/sncb-launches-free-rail-pass-and-reports-first-half-loss/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=19435
This will not bring traffic, but it will bring deadheads. More work, no money, what a plan! If you read between the lines of the cited article, this seems to have been imposed by the govt, as opposed to being some kind of railroad marketing inititive.
ATK serves no transportation purpose. Kill it and give the NEC to the states that it operates in.
Duplicate.
Belgium is one of the most densely populated areas of the world with a rail network serving most towns. We have nothing like that except in a few corridors. However, this is a federation, not a confederation so areas should be served by our federal government by passenger rail in partnership with states and regions, just as we do with roads and riverways.
The "SN" in SNCB should, alone, tell you everything to know about where the funds to do this would come from, who would bear the costs ... and whether there is a 'government' concern with increased numbers of 'non-revenue-generating riders' (or clochards staying warm in winter, etc.)
If Amtrak were run totally as an arm of government, then measures to increase ridership for 'social' purposes might indeed make sense. But in the unfortunate worst-of-both-worlds conditions Amtrak is in today (where it is subject to all sorts of government pressure while still also subject to 'plausible denial' calls for full above-the-rail profitability -- and now all the fun regarding pandemic operations) it would, in my opinion at least, have many more drawbacks than advantages, not least that it would almost certainly, perhaps vastly increase 'farebeating' attempts by other passengers at other times.
Have to give Amtrak kudos for the new pandemic advertising. It is a good idea and the slogan "We are here when you feel safe".......very well done. Someone should get a pat on the back for that.
More traffic ideas? How about a student rail pass that is intermodal Thruway bus and Train.........marketed towards college students. Maybe Amtrak could really surprise us all and make the pass good on local transit (city bus) systems as well or good for a discount with Yellow Cab, Uber or Lyft.
With a humane social safety net, homeless problems are minimized. Even though the number of homeless beggars in Belgium has increased, especially in and around Brussels, it's small compared to here, about 19,000.
How about adopting some European discount schemes, such as the Beautiful Weekend Pass for travel of groups or regional passes any day?
The US population is just about 30 times greater that Belgium. So as a percentage of the total population 19,000 homeless in Belgium equals about 540,000 homeless in the US. The latest statistic I could find for the US homeless was from 2018 and was about 253,000. So adjusting for poulation Belgium and the US both have about the same percentage of homeless.
US homeless estimate in 2018, according to the White House was actually 532,830.
In size, Belgium ranks between Maryland and Massachusetts. Therefore, any free rides being offered would be very short haul. Other than the NEC, Amtrak doesn't really offer those kinds of opportunities in any number.
Regardless of what Belgium does, I think the OP posed a suggestion that could at least be considered.
Outside of the NEC, the vast majority of U.S. citizens today have probably never ridden an Amtrak train. How about one free trip per U.S. citizen? It's possible that even a small percentage of people who took a free ride would decide to try a paid trip in the future.
Increased ridership might spur Congress to come up with some solutions to the problem of Amtrak.
Of course, with some of Amtrak's problems, the free ride may convince many people never to ride the train again, and to demand Congress quit funding it.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
York1 Increased ridership might spur Congress to come up with some solutions to the problem of Amtrak.
What do you think is the problem(s) of Amtrak and solution(s) that the Congress could fix?
blue streak 1 SNCB RR ( Belgium ) is setting up 2 free rides a month for all citizens. This might be a way for Amtrak to really open up citizens to appreciate the RR.
SNCB RR ( Belgium ) is setting up 2 free rides a month for all citizens. This might be a way for Amtrak to really open up citizens to appreciate the RR.
When my wife took her first Amtrak train trip (see above referring to "appreciate"), she said "Never again."
Most everyone who might ride Amtrak already knows it exists. They likely have opinions. Many of those opinions are from life experience.
If you want to "sell" Amtrak, convince people it's the greatest thing (see wife's comment).
Oh yeah. Exception: She does like first class on the Acela. And she's had more than one ride. And we've paid for all of them.
See, it works. She likes and will ride on the Acela. She dislikes and will not ride on the long distance routes. Didn't even need to give her a free ride.
Ed
JPS1What do you think is the problem(s) of Amtrak and solution(s) that the Congress could fix?
Everything concerns the whole issue of government involvement. Amtrak is in the worst possible position, being between a profit-making company and a government-run entity. I don't think Amtrak should exist that way.
I want Congress to finally decide one way or another.
I don't think the U.S. should be underwriting train travel unless it is a necessary means of transportation.
If Congress decides that it is necessary, then let's do it. Some ideas:
1. Don't require Amtrak to follow railroad union rules. To pay food workers or custodians two or three times the rate that normal workers get won't work.
2. Charlie's idea (with which I don't agree) is to nationalize the tracks and run them like we do highways. Amtrak as a business can't operate if they have to provide track maintenance. It also can't operate as a profit-making business by relying on tracks run and maintained by other companies that don't really want it there.
3. Relax certain environmental laws and limit court injunctions on building new tracks. We have crippled any attempts to build HSR in our country.
I don't have time to come up with more.
One issue I will mention is sure to bring the wrath of many on this forum:
Hire another CEO like Anderson, who does not have a railroad background. We need new thinking to run a 21st Century transportation system. We don't need someone who wants to run the system using 1950s thinking.
Personally? I don't think Amtrak should exist if the government has to pay for it. I also think U.S. highways should be toll-based, airlines should pay for airports and air traffic control, and shipping companies should pay for port construction and maintenance.
Some of these arguments appear specious. First the travel cars could be issued much as the medicare cards were. I have reconsidered and would propose no reservations would be made more than 24 hours departure time at boarding station..This would allow regular passengers to get seats until 24 hours before departure.
The card ID number would be the ticket along with regular ID easily controlling the type of riders. This would just fill up the empty seats with proper Covid-19 separation.
blue streak 1The card ID number would be the ticket along with regular ID easily controlling the type of riders. This would just fill up the empty seats
I agree. This wouldn't involve just opening up the doors and letting people crowd in to spend the day.
With today's technology, a system for ticketing could be set up to avoid the problems some posters mentioned.
York1 JPS1 What do you think is the problem(s) of Amtrak and solution(s) that the Congress could fix? Everything concerns the whole issue of government involvement. Amtrak is in the worst possible position, being between a profit-making company and a government-run entity. I don't think Amtrak should exist that way. I want Congress to finally decide one way or another. I don't think the U.S. should be underwriting train travel unless it is a necessary means of transportation. If Congress decides that it is necessary, then let's do it. Some ideas: 1. Don't require Amtrak to follow railroad union rules. To pay food workers or custodians two or three times the rate that normal workers get won't work. 2. Charlie's idea (with which I don't agree) is to nationalize the tracks and run them like we do highways. Amtrak as a business can't operate if they have to provide track maintenance. It also can't operate as a profit-making business by relying on tracks run and maintained by other companies that don't really want it there. 3. Relax certain environmental laws and limit court injunctions on building new tracks. We have crippled any attempts to build HSR in our country. I don't have time to come up with more. One issue I will mention is sure to bring the wrath of many on this forum: Hire another CEO like Anderson, who does not have a railroad background. We need new thinking to run a 21st Century transportation system. We don't need someone who wants to run the system using 1950s thinking. Personally? I don't think Amtrak should exist if the government has to pay for it. I also think U.S. highways should be toll-based, airlines should pay for airports and air traffic control, and shipping companies should pay for port construction and maintenance.
JPS1 What do you think is the problem(s) of Amtrak and solution(s) that the Congress could fix?
I'll pile on...
A long distance train is a hotel and restaurant on wheels. Get hoteliers and restaurant outfits to partner with Amtrak and/or actually run that part of the service. Sell, sell, sell from the moment folks board until the train rolls to a stop at the final terminal.
Having precious space on the train for staff to sleep and eat is a waste. Rotate them off the train with the crew. (and stop letting the conductor take up lounge car space!).
Chop up most east coast routes into day trains. End to end is accomplished with a hotel stay in the middle. Fare includes hotel and transfers. Atlanta for the Crescent, Memphis for the City of NOLA. YMMV with the others. New stations serving suburbia that have grown up over the past 40 years would be helpful. The rule should be "run trains to places where people are when they are awake."
Stop the "buy American" provision for railcars. It hasn't "saved" or "created" a domestic rail car industry. All it's done is given us transplanted foreign manufacturers who bake the high cost of one-off production facilities into the cost of their equipment. So, so, so dumb....and costly.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
York1Everything concerns the whole issue of government involvement. Amtrak is in the worst possible position, being between a profit-making company and a government-run entity. I don't think Amtrak should exist that way. I want Congress to finally decide one way or another. I don't think the U.S. should be underwriting train travel unless it is a necessary means of transportation. If Congress decides that it is necessary, then let's do it. Some ideas: 1. Don't require Amtrak to follow railroad union rules. To pay food workers or custodians two or three times the rate that normal workers get won't work. 2. Charlie's idea (with which I don't agree) is to nationalize the tracks and run them like we do highways. Amtrak as a business can't operate if they have to provide track maintenance. It also can't operate as a profit-making business by relying on tracks run and maintained by other companies that don't really want it there. 3. Relax certain environmental laws and limit court injunctions on building new tracks. We have crippled any attempts to build HSR in our country. I don't have time to come up with more. One issue I will mention is sure to bring the wrath of many on this forum: Hire another CEO like Anderson, who does not have a railroad background. We need new thinking to run a 21st Century transportation system. We don't need someone who wants to run the system using 1950s thinking. Personally? I don't think Amtrak should exist if the government has to pay for it. I also think U.S. highways should be toll-based, airlines should pay for airports and air traffic control, and shipping companies should pay for port construction and maintenance.
A couple of comments:
1. A balanced transportation system is in the interest of everyone including a productive economy. In many cases in this country traveling from downtown to downtown.....rail transportation is the fastest method. Rail transportation with high frequency and easy of ticketing / check-in even more so. To sit on the sidelines and just ignore that fact means for Congress to accept a lowered standard of living and a lower GDP than we otherwise could have.
2. Union rates of pay are not really the issue. It's productivity of the unionized worker that usually is to blame. Give me a cross trained unionized worker any day of the week over one I pay by the hour who isn't and I will wow the public with that person. Further, people deserve a liveable wage for rail service jobs, I don't agree with the idea we should lower their wages down to where they cannot afford to support a family. You do that and your going to pay via customer service and probably safety as well as your not going to attract a very high caliber of employee or one that is necessarily smart.
3. Long Distance trains are a luxury but I think some should be retained for the economic impact they have on small communities with large attractions such as National Parks, Popular camping / hiking areas, rural areas with little or no other service including Bus. I think the National LD network should be pared back more. I see no reason for the Sunset Limited, the Cardinal, and maybe one or two others. Would keep the California Zephyr and Empire Builder West of Chicago as a minimum. Southwest Chief and Texas Eagle open to debate but I think the Texas Eagle could be argued is cheaper to run than the Southwest Chief. So I would favor the Texas Eagle over the Southwest Chief as well.
SO my Capitol Limited from CHicago to Washington DC should become a two day trip with a hotel stay in the middle? Just so all the stops were during the day? Even when I pick ut up at Toledo near midnight, it still gets in like 1PM the following afternoon. If the train left Chicago at 6AM, it might reliably get to Toledo by noon, leaving me say 8 hours of track time, might get to Pittsburgh, get off, hotel and still next day? Even if they made Toldeo the overnight stop, I'd barely fit the 13 hour ride into the next day. This sure isn't selling it to me.
I hear people carping about the train, especially when it runs late. I hear them say "I'll never take a train again." To them it is just a slow airplane, and they are thinking about just getting there. For people like me the trip IS the fun. My vacation starts when I walk onto the train, not when I reach my destination. But making my train ride twice as long and requiring hotel stays in the middle is pushing it too far.
That was a typo on my part as I meant to say "around 533,000" which is why my statement that they were about the same percentage of the population. I need to remember to wear my glasses when I do this.
Having some experience dealing with unions I can telll you they will fight as hard as they can against any change in work rules, even to agreeing to smaller wage increases.
As for Amtrak food service employees and their very high pay, Amtrak needs to do what many of the larger corporations did some years ago when they contacted their on-site food service operations (and sometimes their janatorial and grounds operations) out to independent contractors while the rest of the work force retained their union status. I remember reading somewhere that in many of those cases the quality of the food service improved as a result.
alphasHaving some experience dealing with unions I can telll you they will fight as hard as they can against any change in work rules, even to agreeing to smaller wage increases. As for Amtrak food service employees and their very high pay, Amtrak needs to do what many of the larger corporations did some years ago when they contacted their on-site food service operations (and sometimes their janatorial and grounds operations) out to independent contractors while the rest of the work force retained their union status. I remember reading somewhere that in many of those cases the quality of the food service improved as a result.
The question being 'who said it improved'?
Outsourcing is not a panacea - you tend to get what you pay for and you no longer control what that is. Once you have outsourced a function and eliminated that segment of the work force you play hell in reestablising that segment once you have decided the outsource provider IS NOT delivering what they promised - and in many cases outsourcer's don't deliver. That is just the nature of the lowest bidder world.
I have experienced unions on both sides of the equation. Companies want to make 'promises' and not deliver. Unions want those 'promises' made in writing and then work to insure that the company delivers on thos 'promises'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EnzoampsI hear people carping about the train, especially when it runs late. I hear them say "I'll never take a train again." To them it is just a slow airplane, and they are thinking about just getting there. For people like me the trip IS the fun. My vacation starts when I walk onto the train, not when I reach my destination.
You point out one of the main dividing points in the whole Amtrak discussion.
Should the U.S. government and taxpayers underwrite a long distance train program so that people can enjoy a train vacation?
There are good arguments supporting both sides.
Enzoamps I hear people carping about the train, especially when it runs late.
Speaking of running late, the Texas Eagle - No. 21 - did not arrive in San Antonio until 7:43 this morning. It was more than 9 hours late. Apparently it was stuck behind a stalled freight train north of Marshall, TX for nearly five hours. And from there the situation got worse.
Although the on-time performance for the Eagle has improved in FY20 compared to FY19, due in part to reduced freight traffic during the spring and early summer, it has been seriously late on three occassions during the last three weeks. Stalled freight trains and/or mechanical issues were the reasons as per Amtrak's alerts.
Has there been an increase in freight train breakdowns over the last three or four months? Where would find the data?
BaltACD "The question being 'who said it improved'? Outsourcing is not a panacea - you tend to get what you pay for and you no longer control what that is. Once you have outsourced a function and eliminated that segment of the work force you play hell in reestablising that segment once you have decided the outsource provider IS NOT delivering what they promised - and in many cases outsourcer's don't deliver. That is just the nature of the lowest bidder world." I remember that the article said the workers were polled and they were generally happy with the new food services. I'm familiar with Outside food vendor contracts and similar for companies. Its pretty rare that the company outsourcing the food service is looking to make a profit off of it so "low bid" is not a factor in selecting an Outside food vendor--you mainly go by other's experience with them. It can be a national vendor or a local one. The Outside vendor can sometimes also get the vending machine franchise which is where the company does have some bargaining room for its cut of the vending sales. The companies taking this route are almost always looking to rid themselves of something that is draining money from them so their main object is to keep the employees happy while cutting their costs. Its standard contract procedure that if there are problems with the quality of product or service, the vendor is given a short time-frame to correct the issues or the contract is void--sometimes as little as 30 days. Its also common that the vendor only pays for utilities and any maintenance/repairs/renovations paid for by the company. That allows the Outside food vendor more room to make a profit without having to cut corners or increase prices beyond inflation. In a few cases I was aware of, the company elected to subsidize the Outside vendor a little as the company was still saving money by doing so. This is the approach Amtrak should take when, if ever, it outsources its food service. Namely, it shouldn't try to make any money off of it--just recover its expenses connected to the outside vendor.
"The question being 'who said it improved'?
Outsourcing is not a panacea - you tend to get what you pay for and you no longer control what that is. Once you have outsourced a function and eliminated that segment of the work force you play hell in reestablising that segment once you have decided the outsource provider IS NOT delivering what they promised - and in many cases outsourcer's don't deliver. That is just the nature of the lowest bidder world."
I remember that the article said the workers were polled and they were generally happy with the new food services. I'm familiar with Outside food vendor contracts and similar for companies. Its pretty rare that the company outsourcing the food service is looking to make a profit off of it so "low bid" is not a factor in selecting an Outside food vendor--you mainly go by other's experience with them. It can be a national vendor or a local one.
The Outside vendor can sometimes also get the vending machine franchise which is where the company does have some bargaining room for its cut of the vending sales.
The companies taking this route are almost always looking to rid themselves of something that is draining money from them so their main object is to keep the employees happy while cutting their costs. Its standard contract procedure that if there are problems with the quality of product or service, the vendor is given a short time-frame to correct the issues or the contract is void--sometimes as little as 30 days. Its also common that the vendor only pays for utilities and any maintenance/repairs/renovations paid for by the company. That allows the Outside food vendor more room to make a profit without having to cut corners or increase prices beyond inflation. In a few cases I was aware of, the company elected to subsidize the Outside vendor a little as the company was still saving money by doing so.
This is the approach Amtrak should take when, if ever, it outsources its food service. Namely, it shouldn't try to make any money off of it--just recover its expenses connected to the outside vendor.
I think the main reason for out-sourcing the food and beverage service would be to cut (union) labor costs on trains and eliminate the provisioning centers completely. Only secondarily to improve quality.
I don't know if the workers on the Rocky Mountaineer are unionized.
JPS1 posted in a thread a while back about the hourly wages of Amtrak food & beverage workers compared to Rocky Mountaineer's food & beverage workers' hourly wages. Amtrak's wages were about double RM's.
Before someone yells at me -- I know that is not a fair comparison.
But it does point out an issue that faces an American rail system. If we truly want a passenger rail system that is world class, wages have to be in the discussion.
York1 I don't know if the workers on the Rocky Mountaineer are unionized. JPS1 posted in a thread a while back about the hourly wages of Amtrak food & beverage workers compared to Rocky Mountaineer's food & beverage workers' hourly wages. Amtrak's wages were about double RM's. Before someone yells at me -- I know that is not a fair comparison. But it does point out an issue that faces an American rail system. If we truly want a passenger rail system that is world class, wages have to be in the discussion.
BackshopWhat are the wages of EU passenger train crews? Add Quote t
I don't know that info. Maybe someone else has some idea.
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