Well, with R. Anderson, currently heading AMTRAK; you could maybe see a 're-hash' of an air travel from the postWWII era.
Pennsy RR and AT&SF had a joit rail/flight service from coast to coast(?). TATA AIRLINE...[ Chas. A. Lindberg was part of their Corprate management(?).] I am not sure of the routing it took, but I imagine, it was mostly on PRR at the time(?). Passengers would fly ATA during the day, and land to take the sleeper train overnight.
About that same time frame AT&SF fielded their 'Santa Fe Skyway' airline, same principle as PRR/TATA. It might even have been a continuation of the PRR's service(?). There is not a lot of information collected to lay out either operaton, on the 'Net. 'Santa Fe Skyway' utilized soime surplus aircraft, avail after WWII. Several converted C-54's and Curtis C-46's. Their operations were primarily West Coast from Midwest (Wichita was their Midwest terminal area.) They met their overnight passenger trains out in Northern Okla for the overnight run to the next aircraft filight West leg.
It did not last too long (less than a couple of years) the CAA shut them down as being too monopolistic.
I think that the Southern Pacific RR's 'Daylight Service' between SFO and LA suffered a similat fate at the hands of the CAA at the time(?)
It is a pretty interesting aspect of the railroad/flight intractions, oand one that is not too well documented.
charlie hebdo It seems the nostalgia buffs, who often oppose a modern passenger rail system (HSR, HrSR, and conventional), are so desperate to preserve an archaic, miniscule portion of what we have that they now justify it with service for folks with medical conditions who cannot or won't fly (and probably shouldn't travel), along with the handicapped, Scouts, graduating high school students. Who's next? Those folks with a fear of flying?
It seems the nostalgia buffs, who often oppose a modern passenger rail system (HSR, HrSR, and conventional), are so desperate to preserve an archaic, miniscule portion of what we have that they now justify it with service for folks with medical conditions who cannot or won't fly (and probably shouldn't travel), along with the handicapped, Scouts, graduating high school students. Who's next? Those folks with a fear of flying?
Not sure who you are talking about. I don't oppose HSR, and hope to see it here some day. Judging from the people I have talked to on the trains, if Amtrak only hauled nostalgia buffs, it would have gone out of business long ago.
NKP guy Even if Amtrak were to break its contract with the American public, which has been supporting & subsidizing its existence for nearly half a century, and drop the LD trains, does anyone really believe that Congress would apply those funds, let alone more, toward the corridors so dear to some here? Really? With a liftime's experience of following the news and the way Congress operates, do you really believe your much-vaunted corridors would consequently be infused this way by so much cash they would be what you want them to be? My prediction is that the result would be both no LD service and no improvement on the corridors. * * * * * "For what shall it profit a national passenger railroad system to gain nothing in the whole world at the price of its own soul?"
My prediction is that the result would be both no LD service and no improvement on the corridors.
* * * * *
"For what shall it profit a national passenger railroad system to gain nothing in the whole world at the price of its own soul?"
No one knows how the savings from discontinuing the long-distance trains might be redirected. No one!
Even if Amtrak were to break its contract with the American public, which has been supporting & subsidizing its existence for nearly half a century, and drop the LD trains, does anyone really believe that Congress would apply those funds, let alone more, toward the corridors so dear to some here? Really? With a liftime's experience of following the news and the way Congress operates, do you really believe your much-vaunted corridors would consequently be infused this way by so much cash they would be what you want them to be?
So it's a temporary condition that you could've postponed the trip for? I guess that I'll keep supporting the long distance train network just for you. I'll write to my friend Richie and ask him to keep a fully staffed train on call just in case you ever need to use it.
Backshop So we have to keep a national long distance network for the occasional person who can't fly? How many people can't fly for medical reasons and how often do they actually travel somewhere?
So we have to keep a national long distance network for the occasional person who can't fly? How many people can't fly for medical reasons and how often do they actually travel somewhere?
This person. Am taking the Crescent as my medical condition has discharge instructions to not fly for 10 weeks. Ufortunately could not scan it to post here. Suspect it is to allow internal healing of viens and arteries?
charlie hebdo From my search, looks like less than 10 incidents with loss of air pressure in the cabin on all the scheduled commercial flights in the USA in 2018. Very rare.
From my search, looks like less than 10 incidents with loss of air pressure in the cabin on all the scheduled commercial flights in the USA in 2018. Very rare.
I don't doubt that it is rare, however, if I had a medical condition that a doctor told me not to fly, I would not take a chance. Last year I had a friend who had such a condition as I mentioned in a previous post (sudden pressure loss could have caused an embolism) and stumbled onto Amtrak. She took the Zephyr, no problem with gradual rise to Moffat Tunnel at 9000'. She enjoyed the trip, but in a few weeks when her lung problem had healed, she took a plane back home. I imagine that people not near Amtrak, would need to find another land option.
https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/special-subjects/travel-and-health/specific-medical-conditions-and-travel
MidlandMike FAA shows over 27,000 scheduled flights per day, so your brother's experience represents less than a day's statistical sample. You previously said you are not a health professional, but it does not seem to prevent you from giving medical advice that in a sudden loss of pressure you should be fine with a drop down air mask. This might result in people with certain lung problems (like air getting into blood stream) ending up as a well oxygenated corpse.
FAA shows over 27,000 scheduled flights per day, so your brother's experience represents less than a day's statistical sample. You previously said you are not a health professional, but it does not seem to prevent you from giving medical advice that in a sudden loss of pressure you should be fine with a drop down air mask. This might result in people with certain lung problems (like air getting into blood stream) ending up as a well oxygenated corpse.
Backshop Backshop Sudden loss of cabin pressure is a non-event. Okay, my brother just got back with me on a question. He is a soon to be retired Captain for a major US legacy airline. He has over 22,000 hours of flight time. For those without calculators, that's over 2.5 YEARS of flight time. He has never had a cabin depressurization or had the oxygen masks deploy. That shows you how rare of an occurence it is. Besides, even if it does happen, so what? You put the mask on and breathe normally.
Backshop Sudden loss of cabin pressure is a non-event.
Sudden loss of cabin pressure is a non-event.
Okay, my brother just got back with me on a question. He is a soon to be retired Captain for a major US legacy airline. He has over 22,000 hours of flight time. For those without calculators, that's over 2.5 YEARS of flight time. He has never had a cabin depressurization or had the oxygen masks deploy. That shows you how rare of an occurence it is. Besides, even if it does happen, so what? You put the mask on and breathe normally.
Sitting and stumbling around on a train, often rough riding, for 20-40 hours has a constellation of medical/health problems.
If Amtrak on-board service, food, etc., isn't what it should be, every effort should be made to restore it. Track quality is something that impacts freight as well as passenger service, with greater wheel and rail wear as opposed to smooth track.
My last Amtrak LD trip was in Jan. 1996. May 1971 - Jan 1996 I never had a complaint, not once, about an Amtrak meal. Nor sleep deprevation from rough track. If things are worse, lets get them back to where they should be.
I believe my scheme for on-board meals would work well. And cut turn food losses into profit.
Just want to state I'm with David Klepper 100%. Too tired to argue at the moment.
No, I'm not a "medical professional" but I don't need to be. Just like I don't need to be a fireman to know that a building is burning or a railroad engineer to know a train has derailed.
Sudden loss of cabin pressure is a non-event. It happens more in the movies than in real life. Limited mobility is usually not a problem on shorter domestic flights. DVT and the like usually only happen on very long international flights. Like others have mentioned, what is the percentage of train passengers that even have these needs? Since trains really don't go that many places, how many of these people do they really serve. What do the elderly who live in Columbus, OH, Nashville, TN and many other places without Amtrak service do? They hop on the plane and are there in 2 hours, with no ill effects.
Backshop There are very, very few people who can't actually fly. Those same people probably couldn't take a train, either. Airline cabins are pressurized to 7-8000 feet, so that's no different than i.e. Raton Pass. The restrooms may not be available, but that is less of a problem for a 1-3 hour flight than a 1-2 day train trip.
There are very, very few people who can't actually fly. Those same people probably couldn't take a train, either. Airline cabins are pressurized to 7-8000 feet, so that's no different than i.e. Raton Pass. The restrooms may not be available, but that is less of a problem for a 1-3 hour flight than a 1-2 day train trip.
Are you a health professional? There are many medical reasons that restrict flying. It is not just the reduced pressure, but also the potential of sudden loss of pressure. That's not a problem with train travel. These medical problems are not unique to the elderly. Air passengers needing oxygen must use airline supplied oxygen equipment and make arrangements on lay-overs, while Amtrak passengers can carry their own oxygen equipment. Problems are also caused by limited mobility on planes.
azrail Apparently FirstGroup (the same company that runs passenger trains in the UK) is selling Greyhound.
According to Reuters, Greyhound was put up for sale today, May 30, 2019. First Group is also seeking to sell its UK bus operation(s).
Apparently the company plans to focus its attention on its North American contract bus services. It operates more than 42,000 school buses in North America.
Greyhound could be sold as an entity or in pieces. If I were a betting person, I would put a little money on the company being sold in pieces to regional operators or to new operators to be operated as regional carriers.
As is true for our so-called national passenger rail system, a nationwide bus company does not make much sense in this day and age.
airline cabins are closely monitored for maximum number of pressurization cycles. Cycles are what killed the British comet early models. FAA regulations say only need to keep cabin altitude at 8500 feet or less.
Overmod Some one of our aircraft experts will know, better than I do, how practical it is to increase ambient cabin air pressure if flying with 'reasonable accommodations' for elderly who are intolerant of the economic level of reduced pressure. Surely the technical requirement is easily handled with additional air bleed and perhaps a little more heat exchanger capacity. Is the cumulative stress on the airframe dangerously greater with the higher static internal pressure and greater cycling pressure excursion?
Some one of our aircraft experts will know, better than I do, how practical it is to increase ambient cabin air pressure if flying with 'reasonable accommodations' for elderly who are intolerant of the economic level of reduced pressure. Surely the technical requirement is easily handled with additional air bleed and perhaps a little more heat exchanger capacity. Is the cumulative stress on the airframe dangerously greater with the higher static internal pressure and greater cycling pressure excursion?
https://aerosavvy.com/aircraft-pressurization/
Apparently FirstGroup (the same company that runs passenger trains in the UK) is selling Greyhound.
daveklepper Not true. Much more of a problem, Urinary problems vs. "Fasten Seat Belt" AND usually too few Johns to avoid waiting, inability to eat or drink at a precise schedule, and, yes, Raton Pass and possibly even the Moffat may not be included in some elderlies' cross-country rail trips. They may be forced to use the Eagle-Sunset route. but will be happy it is available.
Not true. Much more of a problem, Urinary problems vs. "Fasten Seat Belt" AND usually too few Johns to avoid waiting, inability to eat or drink at a precise schedule, and, yes, Raton Pass and possibly even the Moffat may not be included in some elderlies' cross-country rail trips. They may be forced to use the Eagle-Sunset route. but will be happy it is available.
Since LD trains serve so few cities, you seem to be pushing it more for land cruises than for actual transportation.
daveklepperAnd it was C-H that forced a comparison of LDTs and concert halls. I was merely pointing out that concert halls don't get paid for their hard-of-hearing and handicapped-access expenses by any government agency. So why should the oveall transportation agency get ADA funds for such purposes?
I was actually agreeing with you ... but since you bring this up, yes, I think it is fully appropriate to direct Federal funding to make concert halls, theatres and the like fully "ADA compliant", precisely because they are to be considered resources beneficial to an intelligent civilization and it is fair to allocate 'general funds' from taxation of the whole to make them accessible to the whole.
I should probably add that I think there is good socialism and bad socialism, and I further think reimbursing private owners out of tax money for things the Government required them to do at their expense is in the prior category.
Part of the elephant-in-the-room larger question regarding LD Amtrak service is whether the benefit per actual elderly 'customer' is worth the pro rata amount of tax 'diversion' from other laudable Government efforts that provides it. I fear the prospective societal cost-benefit is far less than that from cultural resources.
I would also want to see some accelerometric data as to whether the incidence of actual CAT or other issues in most current high-altitude flying is a greater impediment to 'bathroom access' than much current rough track poses to Amtrak passengers. A fall is just as dangerous from a 79mph resultant as it is from a 500kt one, and perhaps operationally and statistically more likely.
All airports have restaurants with carryout food. I see plenty of people eating their own food on planes. Waitng on restrooms isn't a problem. I've never had to wait for more than one person, and they were only doing #1 :), so it was fast.
At the risk of sounding condescending, I think that with you living in another country, you've lost touch with the US of 2019.
daveklepper And it was C-H that forced a comparison of LDTs and concert halls.
And it was C-H that forced a comparison of LDTs and concert halls.
I did nothing of the sort. You seem to want to justify the continuation of long distance devices on the basis of providing alternative transportation for the some of the elderly and/or challenged. ADA mandates access to existing public services, a very different matter. It seems to me that your justification is absurd.
Ocermod, the "cruelty" refers to lack of long-distance travel capability, to visit children and relatives and for vactions, not the hassles and discomfort associated with air travel.
There are medical reasons for elderly not flying, even if we have the ability to walk and climb stairs.
And it was C-H that forced a comparison of LDTs and concert halls. I was merely pointing out that concert halls don't get paid for their hard-of-hearing and handicapped-access expenses by any government agency. So why should the oveall transportation agency get ADA funds for such purposes?
for me, municipal libraries, national parks, concert halls and theaters, and long distance trains, are all part of the civilized America, but C-H and you are certainly entitled to your opinions.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.