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Yet another Amtrak mystery

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Yet another Amtrak mystery
Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 5:05 AM

I just watched this nicely done video of Amtrak Chargers in the midwest.  

https://youtu.be/OIyuY2aPkak

 

Every single train had two or three old Heritage baggage cars tacked on the rear end.  Sometimes an old Heritage diner or two.  

Why? 

Amtrak just bought all those nice, new V2 baggage cars.  I could see one on each for bikes, etc. 

The justification for the new bags was reduction of speed restriction (which wouldn't apply here), and reduced maintenance cost.  I it would appear using these cars would run up the train operating cost quite a bit.

Is it as a collision buffer?  If so, why isn't this done on all trains run in non-PTC/ACSES territory?

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 7:01 AM

If the train in the video is the "Hoosier State", then it is possible that the Heritage cars on the rear end are an equipment move to Beech Grove.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 7:17 AM

The video has the train numbers.  Mostly Illinios sponsored trains, KC Mule, etc.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 10:40 AM

CN imposes speed restrictions on Amtrak trains of less than 30 axles, because they supposedly do not properly activate crossings and the signal system at higher speeds.  The trains in the video all seem to have 7 cars plus the locomotive, 8 pieces of equipment = 32 axles.

I believe UP has a similar requirement for the Missouri corridor trains.  

This is probably one of the weirder consists:

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/not-open-for-meals/amp/

It is also worth noting here that VIA runs trains of only 2 or 3 cars at 90+ mph every day without problems.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 12:06 PM

SD70Dude
CN imposes speed restrictions on Amtrak trains of less than 30 axles, because they supposedly do not properly activate crossings and the signal system at higher speeds.  The trains in the video all seem to have 7 cars plus the locomotive, 8 pieces of equipment = 32 axles.

I believe UP has a similar requirement for the Missouri corridor trains.  

This is probably one of the weirder consists:

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/not-open-for-meals/amp/

It is also worth noting here that VIA runs trains of only 2 or 3 cars at 90+ mph every day without problems.

Can only imagine how archaic and ineffective CN's signal system must be to have such a requirement. 

CSX restricted single unit operations to 30 MPH account signal issues because relay dependent signal system did not detect the single unit fast enough to activate the track occupancy indication.  Two units or a unit and a car and you were OK for timetable speed. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, August 15, 2018 8:48 PM

Many of our rules seem to differ by region.

In Western Canada one unit is allowed 30 mph, 2 units or one unit pulling one car are allowed 50 mph, and there are no speed restrictions on 3 or more pieces of equipment.  Axle counts do not figure into our rules, a 4 axle locomotive and a articulated car both count as one piece of equipment.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Thursday, August 16, 2018 1:45 AM

oltmannd
The video has the train numbers.  Mostly Illinios sponsored trains, KC Mule, etc.

I fly to KC every so many weeks and my hotel room has a view of the tracks behind KC Union Station.     The KC Mule has been pulling old junk cars for over a year now.    At least 3 to 4 each run.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, August 16, 2018 7:54 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
oltmannd
The video has the train numbers.  Mostly Illinios sponsored trains, KC Mule, etc.

 

I fly to KC every so many weeks and my hotel room has a view of the tracks behind KC Union Station.     The KC Mule has been pulling old junk cars for over a year now.    At least 3 to 4 each run.

 

And this is what passes for railroading?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, August 16, 2018 2:08 PM

charlie hebdo
And this is what passes for railroading?

I have a different question: there's money to do this but not serve better dinners?

Or hand out toys for Marines at Christmas?

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Posted by Sunnyland on Friday, August 24, 2018 3:10 PM

Yes, MO now has that requirement for number of axles. I had heard about it and asked a couple of conductors on River Runner and they confirmed that is the reason.It seemed odd to see those empty cars suddenly appear, making the train longer. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, August 24, 2018 5:55 PM

I'm looking at this as CN's attempt to make operating Amtrak trains on CN so onerous and expensive that Amtrak will stop operating the trains.

When will the requirement become 40 axles?  60 axles?  100 axles?

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Posted by cx500 on Friday, August 24, 2018 6:04 PM

It will depend on the sensitivity of the track circuits.  Back in the day CPR was able to operate single RDCs with little problem on their own tracks.  For the train to Buffalo two cars were required to provide reliable detection into BCT.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, August 24, 2018 7:27 PM

cx500
It will depend on the sensitivity of the track circuits.  Back in the day CPR was able to operate single RDCs with little problem on their own tracks.  For the train to Buffalo two cars were required to provide reliable detection into BCT.

On all the railroads I am familiar with - 2 on track pieces of rail equipment - 2 engines, a engine and a car have always been considered adequate to properly activate the signal system.

B&O ran into trouble in the early 50's when operating single Budd 85 foot RDC cars at 79 MPH.  The cars could enter and exit the detector circuits at 116 feet per second before the relays could drop and indicate occupancy.

Relay based signal systems are being replaced with microproscessor base signal equipment in the march toward PTC compliance on most Class 1 carriers.

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Posted by oltmannd on Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:52 AM

Sunnyland

Yes, MO now has that requirement for number of axles. I had heard about it and asked a couple of conductors on River Runner and they confirmed that is the reason.It seemed odd to see those empty cars suddenly appear, making the train longer. 

 

The state has a rule?  I would think Amtrak wouldn't have to try to hard to get that knocked down.  

 

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Posted by Wister6813 on Monday, August 27, 2018 8:16 PM

For the Missouri River Runners, the extra cars are a requirement imposed by the Union Pacific.  The UP identified a minimum number of axles necessary to activate the grade crossing protection.   Typically the extra cars are baggage cars that are just along for the ride.   The extra cars have been on the River Runners since the fall of 2016.   

I believe the CN has a similar requirement for some trains in Illinois. 

BTW....the Missouri trains are named the Missouri River Runners.  There are four trips each day between KC and St Louis.  The Missouri Mule name has not been used for several years.   

 

 

 

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Posted by edtrain on Monday, August 27, 2018 9:18 PM

SD70Dude

CN imposes speed restrictions on Amtrak trains of less than 30 axles, because they supposedly do not properly activate crossings and the signal system at higher speeds.  The trains in the video all seem to have 7 cars plus the locomotive, 8 pieces of equipment = 32 axles.

I believe UP has a similar requirement for the Missouri corridor trains.  

This is probably one of the weirder consists:

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/not-open-for-meals/amp/

It is also worth noting here that VIA runs trains of only 2 or 3 cars at 90+ mph every day without problems.

 

UPDATE:

 I'm revising my earlier post in order to correct inaccuracies.  

Please disregard what was posted earlier and accept my apologies.

The 32 axle requirement is not an Amtrak rule.

The 32 axle requirement is not it a PTC requirement.

The 32 axle requirement is imposed by CN in Illinois as far south as Carbondale.

The 32 axle requirement is imposed by UP in Missouri only for the Missouri corridor.

Sincerely,  edtrain



 

 

​

 

 

Tags: 32 axles
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Posted by JOHN L CLARK on Monday, August 27, 2018 10:28 PM

Are the new Amtrak Chargers completely out of the testing phase?

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 6:51 AM

edtrain

 

 
SD70Dude

CN imposes speed restrictions on Amtrak trains of less than 30 axles, because they supposedly do not properly activate crossings and the signal system at higher speeds.  The trains in the video all seem to have 7 cars plus the locomotive, 8 pieces of equipment = 32 axles.

I believe UP has a similar requirement for the Missouri corridor trains.  

This is probably one of the weirder consists:

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/not-open-for-meals/amp/

It is also worth noting here that VIA runs trains of only 2 or 3 cars at 90+ mph every day without problems.

 

 

 

 

SD70Dude,  You've got the basics.  Let me add a little detail. 

In conversation with a recently retired Amtrak Engineer, it seems that the 32 axle rule is an Amtrak rule and is due to the need for 32 axles or more in territory that is being upgraded to 110 mph speeds which must have PTC.  PTC requires the minimum of 32 axles to properly activate crossing signals.  Thus, the regional trains affected must add cars to their short trains in order to have the needed 32 axles. The added cars are non-revenue and do not have any passengers.

 

This just leaves me speechless...

First, Amtrak Empire Service trains are typically 5 cars and one loco, for 24 axles and they run at 110 mph, with road crossings.  Ditto Harrisburg trains.

Second, it would be better to fill out trains with coaches and then price to maximize revenue than to fill out with non revenue equipment.

Third, I thought the whole justification for the new Viewliner bags and diners was that Amtrak Mechanical couldn't keep the stuff going.  Now we're running it at 110 mph?  Really?

Well, I WAS speechless.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:08 AM

JOHN L CLARK

Are the new Amtrak Chargers completely out of the testing phase?

 

According to the minutes of meeting of the Group 305 Technical Subcommittee of April 19, 2018 the Caltrans and WSDOT Chargers are in revenue service. All 33 IDOT/Midwestern Chargers are finally accepted. 23 are on the property.

Two test on two Michigan corridors are not completed. As the Chargers are finally accepted it seems to be a different problem.

A number of unit are stored at Pueblo as there is not enough storage in Chicago until Amtrak relocates its P42.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, August 28, 2018 1:39 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
A number of unit are stored at Pueblo as there is not enough storage in Chicago until Amtrak relocates its P42.

Only slightly less ridiculous than dragging around a bunch of relics to meet a 32 axle rule would be using surplus P42s to make the axle count.  Drag them around.  At least they can help move the train if the Chargers conk out.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 29, 2018 9:36 AM

oltmannd
At least they can help move the train if the Chargers conk out.

But it isn't Chargers that conk out.  It's Spirits that conk out.  Devil

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Posted by RDG467 on Thursday, August 30, 2018 10:36 AM

It's Amtrak's new "Super Economy Hobo Class Service", Don. 

Mr. Anderson has found a new clientele who cannot pay full coach fares, but are willing to pay half-fare to ride as baggage......He's also trying to market the service to all the train-hoppers on Youtube. 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:26 PM

Next he'll adapt the old airline 'over wing class' -- hey! Why not buy back some of the MHCs, paint them white and reinstall the shackles, and run them as "extra axles" that actually help a Government purpose...

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Posted by SD70Dude on Thursday, August 30, 2018 5:04 PM

FEMA would love that...

A number of the MHC's have been sold and are now being used as regular boxcars in freight service, recently I have started to see them on a regular basis.  Their new reporting mark is MISX, and most still wear the Phase IV stripes.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, August 30, 2018 6:36 PM

edtrain
 
SD70Dude

CN imposes speed restrictions on Amtrak trains of less than 30 axles, because they supposedly do not properly activate crossings and the signal system at higher speeds.  The trains in the video all seem to have 7 cars plus the locomotive, 8 pieces of equipment = 32 axles.

I believe UP has a similar requirement for the Missouri corridor trains.  

This is probably one of the weirder consists:

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/08/01/not-open-for-meals/amp/

It is also worth noting here that VIA runs trains of only 2 or 3 cars at 90+ mph every day without problems. 

UPDATE:

 I'm revising my earlier post in order to correct inaccuracies.  

Please disregard what was posted earlier and accept my apologies.

The 32 axle requirement is not an Amtrak rule.

The 32 axle requirement is not it a PTC requirement.

The 32 axle requirement is imposed by CN in Illinois as far south as Carbondale.

The 32 axle requirement is imposed by UP in Missouri only for the Missouri corridor.

Sincerely,  edtrain

CN and UP must be using PTC implemented with relays instead of microprocessors and need the extra time for all the required relay decisions to click into place.

So a 32 axle passenger train is approximately 680 feet long.  79 MPH is almost 116 feet per second.  It will take a 32 axle paseenger train 5.86 seconds to pass a point.  At almost 6 seconds are we certain they aren't using Moses and his scribe that committed the 10 Commandments to stone tablets????????

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Posted by ns145 on Saturday, September 1, 2018 3:31 PM

BaltACD

CN and UP must be using PTC implemented with relays instead of microprocessors and need the extra time for all the required relay decisions to click into place.

So a 32 axle passenger train is approximately 680 feet long.  79 MPH is almost 116 feet per second.  It will take a 32 axle paseenger train 5.86 seconds to pass a point.  At almost 6 seconds are we certain they aren't using Moses and his scribe that committed the 10 Commandments to stone tablets????????

 

Interestingly, Amtrak's Lincoln Service trains running on Union Pacific's ex-Alton/GM&O/SPCSL route, which will eventually operate at 110 mph, still only run with one engine and 5 passenger cars (24 axles).  Here is a photo of Amtrak train 304 taken back in late July: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ns145/41886582340

 

I don't know what the story is on the ex-MP line across Missouri.  According to UP's latest update, PTC on the Sedalia Sub west of Jefferson City is still being installed: https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@newsinfo/documents/up_pdf_nativedocs/pdf_up_media_aug_2018_ptc.pdf  Perhaps there is some antiquated signal equipment that still needs to be replaced?

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