Just want to make sure I'm 100% clear on this, because none of the sources I've looked at have given me a clear answer.
There are multiple kinds of passenger trains and cars for said trains. I've heard the term Pullman train and All-Coach train many times, and I'm slightly confused. With Pullman, I got the impression that these trains were overnight services with a good chunk of the consist being sleeper cars. Does that mean an All-Coach train consists of mostly coach cars, or is it just a train with coach accomodations and nothing else? If the latter is the case, how did railroads run them overnight? If it's the former, does that mean that Amtrak's corridor trains like the Northeast Regional, the Hiawatha, and Cascade count as modern all-coach trains?
Also, the El Capitan and the Trail Blazer (PRR) were described as the first all-coach trains which could match Pullman trains in terms of accomodations. What were the normal accomodations and services for each type of train?
From what I've read, in the old days an all coach train meant no sleeping accomodations, although they did have diner cars and some other amenities.
Their main attraction was cheaper fares, although how much cheaper I don't know. Presumably there must have been a substantial difference to make them attractive to potential riders.
I'd also assume those coach seats were comfy enough to snooze in.
Firelock76 From what I've read, in the old days an all coach train meant no sleeping accomodations, although they did have diner cars and some other amenities. Their main attraction was cheaper fares, although how much cheaper I don't know. Presumably there must have been a substantial difference to make them attractive to potential riders. I'd also assume those coach seats were comfy enough to snooze in.
Also, there was a space charge for sleepers, which presumably went to Pullman (except on the roada that operated the sleepers themselves). The charge varied from that for an upper to those for a lower, a bedroom, a compartment and a drawing room (and on the NYC, PRR, and SOU-WPRte-L&N a master room).
If the coaches had reclining seats, they were much more comfortable than those with the walkover seats (I have slept in both styles)--and when the western roads began buying coaches with legrests, coach passengers were more comfortable yet.
Another anenity was a folding center arm rest, which I found in Southern and Santa Fe coaches only; the worst thing I ever found in a reclining seat coach was a fixed center armrest, which made it impossible to lie down on the seat (some ACL, some L&N & Amfleet I).
I spent one night in a Frisco "Sleepy Hollow" seat. stretched out on one double seat and my feet on the seat across from it, going from Atlanta to Jesup--and the next night I went back sitting in an unheated washroom because the coach was filled with people going back after the Gator Bowl game.
Johnny
RailfanGXY,Not all Pullman cars were sleepers. There were cars called "Parlors" that offered 1st class service and were owned by Pullman yet leased to the railroads (until postwar when the roles were reversed). Parlor cars generally featured 1-1 seating with overstuffed rotating (and sometimes reclining) chairs. Each Pullman parlor car had a Pullman car attendant who would take care of the passengers. He'd serve them drinks and snacks at their seat, bring them the newspapers, etc.A typical Parlor:http://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/1955passdgms/300-324.pdfParlor-Lounge:http://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/1955passdgms/400-404.pdf
Parlor cars could have "day rooms" like roomettes or drawing rooms. These did not have beds, but instead offered privacy and maybe a sofa.
Baggage-Parlor-Lounge (note the roomettes and drawing room):http://www.alphabetroute.com/nynhh/1955passdgms/210-219.pdf
Parlor trains were "day trains" as they did not run overnight. On the New Haven RR, where they ran hourly passenger trains between Boston and New York City all day long, most trains were day trains. It is only ~230 miles after all.
All these day trains had diners or grill cars (or both), and just after WWII they all had coaches, too. But then even the overnight "Owl" sleeping car train had a couple coaches attached.
Chair cars.
An all-Pullman or all-sleeper overnight train meant that all accommodations were First Class, with 1st Class fares applying, and not coaches. But diners and possbily a lounge and observation car if appropopriate. An all-Pullman daytine train would not have ooaches, only parlor cars, and diner and possbily lounge and an observation car, usually the same car.
An all-coach train meant no cars requiring first-class fares, and no sleepers or parlor cars. A daytime all-coach train with purpose-built equipment would usually have denser seaing, higher capacity, and fairly compact washrooms, but an overnight coach train, if a preimeum train like the original Florida streamliners, the Southerner, Trailblazer, Pacemaker, El Capitan, would have seats that reclined further, folding center arm-rests, and washrooms that usually seperated the john from the sink area and had ofen a bench seat in addition. This would also be true of the few all-coach trains that had exceptionally long runs; only the IC's Ciy of New Orelans would come to mind, but it was not realy all-coach because it carried parlor cars, at times just for part of he run. Some all-coach trains had specific cars for short-trip passengers and more comfortable cars for long-distance riders.
Much of this carries into Amtrak, Amfleet I was designed more for daytime short-distance trips, and both Amfleet !! Superliner coaches for overnight and other long-destaince caoch trips. And Amtrak's "Busiess Class" can be compared in some ways to the old parlor cars. Not an eact match, but much the same idea.
Dave, the City of New Orleans did not carry parlor cars; except for the lounge, diner, and observation cars, it was all coach (with a baggage car and perhaps an RPO)--unless an observation car needed shopping and then an IC parlor was operated on the rear as a subsitute (I made one trip from Brookhaven to Jackson in a parlor for which I did not pay extra fare).
RailfanGXYhow did railroads run [coach trains] overnight?
Deggesty . . . Also, there was a space charge for sleepers, . . . The charge varied from that for an upper to those for a lower, . . .
- PDN.
Paul_D_North_Jr Deggesty . . . Also, there was a space charge for sleepers, . . . The charge varied from that for an upper to those for a lower, . . . Which led to the old comedy routine about a patron being confused why the fare for the upper was lower, but the lower was higher . . .
Which led to the old comedy routine about a patron being confused why the fare for the upper was lower, but the lower was higher . . .
Still that way today on VIA.
CN (and later VIA) used have coaches with fully reclining seats and greater spacing between the rows (can't remember if they were 2x1 or 2x2). This service was branded as "Dayniter" and was quite popular. I believe the fare was somewhere between coach and berth.
Unfortunately the Dayniter cars were all ex-CN carbon steel equipment, and the service ended when that fleet was retired circa 1990. To my knowledge none of the stainless steel coaches have ever been converted to Dayniter configuration. A shame, really.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Paul_D_North_Jr Deggesty . . . Also, there was a space charge for sleepers, . . . The charge varied from that for an upper to those for a lower, . . . Which led to the old comedy routine about a patron being confused why the fare for the upper was lower, but the lower was higher . . . - PDN.
Public timetables that showed rail fares would show the cost of a lower for each city pair, and there was a table which showed how the cost of other accommodations varied with the cost of lower berths--and how many additional rail fares were needed for the room accommodations.
Paul_D_North_Jr Which led to the old comedy routine about a patron being confused why the fare for the upper was lower, but the lower was higher . . .
That sure sounds like Bud and Lou, like the horse whose father was a mudder.
A 1 and 1 Parlor car With a Pullman attendant and a nice cocktail-- Now THAT was 1st class travel.
To add to the story: Some all coach trains that were faster than others and had upgraded equipment and services, were Extra Fare such as the Santa Fe' El Capitan, the SP's Daylight.
My comment on the C. of N. O. having parlors at certain times must have been based on the experience you mentioned, with the parlor substituting for the obs-lounge. Thanks for the explanation.
The Daylights carried both coaches and parlors. The legendary Heywood-Wakefield sleepey hollow seat was about as good as it gets in coach travel. I remember getting on the Lake Shore Limited in 1990 with my then seven year old son and being delighted to find an ex-Santa Fe coach with Sleepy Hollow seats (and Santa Fe-style decorations - even after HEP conversion!), instead of the usual Amfleet II, which made the ride to Cleveland about as good as it gets in coach.
Often all coach trains were some of the rail roads best offering's. In 1939 when the silver meoter and the south wind in 1940, we're all coach. The trains were built new by Budd and completely deiselized. Faster than the standard trains, they carried diners snd lounges. Sleepers we're evenually added to the consit. But the were billed as all coach with the latest and greatest offering's.
rcdryeThe legendary Heywood-Wakefield Sleepy Hollow seat was about as good as it gets in coach travel.
I came across a better one (that I've been trying desultorily to track down ever since, and one of you will know) when riding to Philadelphia in the early '70s. (For some reason I remember the car in question as being ex-ACL but have no idea why I thought so.) This appeared to be a normal long-track distance coach, but reaching under the seat was a two-piece 'foldout' with what I remember as aluminum girder rails solidly supporting both sides and full upholstery at the top. (This is of course the same design premise as the Sleepy Hollow seats pictured in White's American Passenger Car, but the construction was different.) The center section supported the knees with a slight upward hump, and the outer section supported the calves almost down to the ankles. That was easily the most comfortable railroad seat I've ever used, and I have never seen another since, although it has been a guide and inspiration for designing future passenger accommodations on occasion.
I had no trouble falling asleep in that seat (the only other time being in one of those retrucked P70s with high-inertia concrete decks that rode almost silently, with bronze-framed overstuffed velour seats) and I don't think I would have had particular difficulty riding long distances in it.
I do not recall riding overnight in a coach with legrests in the South until Amtrak began operating the trains. I do have a possibly mistaken memory of legrests in coaches on the City of New Orleans.
One of the most comfortable nights I spent in a coach on the Southern was in one of the old coaches that I rode on #36 from Atlanta to Charlotte in 1953--I think I was directed to this coach because I was riding on a pass--I stretched out on the seat next to a washroom, and I think I slept all night, without waking even once. Two years earlier, my brother and I rode #136, and HE took the seat next to the washroom (he was older than I). I had two facing seats, and woke once or twice in the night.
Deggesty I do not recall riding overnight in a coach with legrests in the South until Amtrak began operating the trains. I do have a possibly mistaken memory of legrests in coaches on the City of New Orleans. One of the most comfortable nights I spent in a coach on the Southern was in one of the old coaches that I rode on #36 from Atlanta to Charlotte in 1953--I think I was directed to this coach because I was riding on a pass--I stretched out on the seat next to a washroom, and I think I slept all night, without waking even once. Two years earlier, my brother and I rode #136, and HE took the seat next to the washroom (he was older than I). I had two facing seats, and woke once or twice in the night.
ROBERT WILLISON Deggesty I do not recall riding overnight in a coach with legrests in the South until Amtrak began operating the trains. I do have a possibly mistaken memory of legrests in coaches on the City of New Orleans. One of the most comfortable nights I spent in a coach on the Southern was in one of the old coaches that I rode on #36 from Atlanta to Charlotte in 1953--I think I was directed to this coach because I was riding on a pass--I stretched out on the seat next to a washroom, and I think I slept all night, without waking even once. Two years earlier, my brother and I rode #136, and HE took the seat next to the washroom (he was older than I). I had two facing seats, and woke once or twice in the night. When you say old coaches, do you mean heavyweight? I know the heavy Wright's I ridden, rode like Cadillacs, smooth and with out much roll.
When you say old coaches, do you mean heavyweight? I know the heavy Wright's I ridden, rode like Cadillacs, smooth and with out much roll.
matthewsaggie A 1 and 1 Parlor car With a Pullman attendant and a nice cocktail-- Now THAT was 1st class travel.
It certainly was.
My experiences with Parlor Cars were between New York and New Haven c.1968-73.
Fares between these two cities ranged from $3.35 for coach commuter seats on local ex-NH cars (usually a long, cold, noisy ride in tight seats, but for two hours was tolerable and not expensive) to GCT. For $5.05 I could ride Amtrak to Penn Station in one of their very much better coaches. But the creme de la creme was to pay an exhorbitant $8.85 to ride in the Parlor Car!
These parlor cars (probably ex-PRR Congressional equipment; I remember the Molly Pitcher being one such) gave a taste of How the Upper Class Travels. Each car had its own attendant (always an older black man) who not only escorted me to my seat, but later took my drink and lunch or dinner order, and then returned to serve these while I sat in my memorably-comfortable, fabric covered swivel seat. In those days one usually ate in a dining car; to be served food at one's parlor car seat was a novel experience, indeed.
Just my opinion, but today's Amtrak Business Class and even Acela First Class service ($158!) simply fall short of those old parlor cars. Close, but no cigar.
I, too, rode in parlor cars between Washington and Boston. In 1970, i rode from New York to New Haven and from New Haven to Boston on the Merchants. Both trains had the two and one seats--and very few were occupied. However, the seats were comfortable. And, I ate in the dining car.
In 1974, I rode from Washington to Back Bay in a parlor and, again, the ride was comfortable.
Last year, I made a round trip Washingto-Boston and back in first class cars, complete with meals brought to my single seat. Even with being able to use my laptop for communication, there was not the feeling of luxury that I had had in 1970 and in 1974.
Wow...how much inflation changes things.
From that description, the Acela sounds like the "modern" All-Parlor train for the NEC, with the Northeast Regionals being just the All-Coach version. The PRR's Admiral and General it seems. So the All-Pullman equivalent today would be...any of the ex-SOU or Florida-bound routes. I haven't riden any of the long-distance trains (litereally the only Amtrak service I've taken is the NEC to or from DC), but from looking at the equipment and the diagrams for them, they definitely seem to be in the style, if not the luxury of a traditional All-Pullman. Obviously there's sleepers, a seperate baggage car, a full Diner instead of a Cafe, and of course the Amfleet II's, with their more widely spaced seats and a vestibule at only one end just like a streamliner of the 50's. I'd consider them the Parlor cars of Amtrak's eastern fleet while the I's are basic coaches.
I would say that my most interesting trip in a parlor car was my last trip from Brookhaven to Jackson, Mississippi, on the Pannyma (as the operators whom I knew called the train), in 1965. One of the observation cars (I do not remember if it was Gulfport or Memphis) built for this train had been wrecked, and a drawing room parlor car substituted. After the conductor had seen to all the people who boarded, he and the flagman invited me to sit with them in the drawing room, and we had a good conversation.
Deggesty They were heavyweights--without reclining seats; they were OLD.
They were heavyweights--without reclining seats; they were OLD.
They were probably Sou RR 1200 series cars. The later heavyweights were 1000 series that reclined.
Overmod - know of any photos of those "Sleepy Hollow" seats?
Here are citations to a couple of interesting articles - the first is about the LIRR's weekend NYC to Montauk service:
I remember reading both of those articles when they came out. LIRR's parlor car service was never a daily operation and more than a little bit of snobbery on the part of the parlor car passengers was implied.
Hilton's article was an enjoyable memoir. It included an interesting comparison of Erie's rebuilt heavyweight coaches which were designed for overnight service and Lackawanna's lightweight from "Phoebe Snow" which were for daytime service.
Does this discussion ever bring back memories!! I recall traveling between NYC and DC on the Metroliners in Club Service starting in 1969; BTW, my first trip was on my dime whereas subsequent trips were business-expensed. This service was akin to Parlor car service as it had 1-1 reclining, swivel seating and had one/two car attendants who brought meals and cocktails, gratis. That first trip was a 3-hour non-stop with the most horrendous ride due to Penn Central's tawdry track conditions. It was an adventure!
I also recall riding AMTRAK Club from New Haven to DC with more conventional 2-1 seating, again with meals and cocktails, gratis. Incredibly quiet and not as bouncy a ride as we were traveling in Amfleet I's at a lower speed than the Metroliners.
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