Another wrong-way HSR proposal

[oltmannd]

First Chattanooga, now Columbus.  Anybody have a spare $3B laying around?

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/proposed-high-speed-rail-would-run-through-georgia/646968116

Not a fan of these "tail-wagging-the-dog" proposals.  The right way to do this is to figure out which projects get you the most bang for the buck. For $3B you could build out an entire commuter rail network in Atlanta - and perhaps 100,000 trips a day off the busiest roads.  

[A McIntosh]

If they are a success, this sounds like something Brightline would do, provided there is enough of a real estate portfolio. 

[D.Carleton]

Has there ever been a right-way HSR proposal in this country? When I attend conferences and this, that or the other group lays out their HSR ideas the European and Asian operators of true HSR listen politely but when we're all together afterward at the social (with a little lubrication) they're laughing their heads off. They call us "naive" and "childish" for thinking we are going to build and run high-speed trains when we cannot run the passenger trains we already have effectively. At least some politico gets some press out of this.

[oltmannd]

D.Carleton

Has there ever been a right-way HSR proposal in this country? When I attend conferences and this, that or the other group lays out their HSR ideas the European and Asian operators of true HSR listen politely but when we're all together afterward at the social (with a little lubrication) they're laughing their heads off. They call us "naive" and "childish" for thinking we are going to build and run high-speed trains when we cannot run the passenger trains we already have effectively. At least some politico gets some press out of this.

 

Second verse, same as the first...

[bratkinson]

These days, the NIMBYs can and have defeated nearly all proposals for true high speed rail due to everything from protected lands and critters to loss of aestetic 'beauty' of the land, and on and on and on.  They're still fighting Brightline in Florida! 

I hate to sound like a pessimist, but in light of the anti-everything 'new' these days, it looks like the USA will continue to stumble along with very minimal increments to train speed.

[PJS1]

D.Carleton

 They call us "naive" and "childish" for thinking we are going to build and run high-speed trains when we cannot run the passenger trains we already have effectively. 

Amtrak does a pretty good job on the NEC.  From 2012 through 2016 the Acela’s had an 84.6 percent on-time average at their endpoints and 84.6 percent at their intermediate stations.  The numbers for the NEC regionals were 80.4 and 82.3.  These times compare favorably with the performance records of Amtrak’s competitors along the NEC.

 

Amtrak has become the dominate commercial passenger carrier between New York and Washington.  It has bested the airlines for several years running.  It must be doing something right!

 

The State Supported trains also have a decent on-time performance record.  From 2012 through 2016 they were on-time an average of 78.5 percent at their endpoints and 82.2 percent at their intermediate stations.  

 

Run effectively involves more metrics than just on-time performance.  But being on time is important for most customers, I suspect, and on this score at least Amtrak does a respectable job.  It’s the long distance trains that make Amtrak look ineffective. 

If overseas visitors put up the money to improve our passenger rail system, I will pay them some mind.  Or if the majority of the OECD countries put up the same percentage of GDP for defense that the U.S. puts up or has put up for their benefit, I will bow to their views regarding passenger rail in the U.S.  Otherwise, they can keep it to themselves.   

[blue streak 1]

What is very wrong with this pproposal is the lack of understanding the route from ATL airport to Columbus.

Now at ATL airport there is plenty of room for a terminal under the people mover from the airport to the rental car facility.  an elevator would be needed however.  But making a connection to MARTA would involve  a long walk either at the airport or at East point station. 

The CSX  ( A&WP ) ROW predates the civil war and as such CSX has a Max operating speed of 50 MPH maybe due poor sub grade.  WE are aware that CSX is fighting NY State over HrSR Albany west. Expecting anything different south of Atlanta has no chance.   The ROW is also curvy and has lots of grade crossings including many private.

From Newnan where the route would join the NS  ( C of GA ) that route is very crooked to  Raymond.  Route is single track and would require  new and higher bridges on I-85 for clearances over the route.  From Raymond to Columbus the line has been abandoned by SOU and NS except for a small section that was transferred to CSX after a large bridge got washed out.  $3.0B ?  more like $5.0B.

[PNWRMNM]

Streak,

The Mayor of Columbus may not know, but you certainly should, that is is physically impossible to run a 220 MPH train on a pre-civil war snake-like alignment. It would have to be from scratch every foot of the way.

Mac

[D.Carleton]

JPS1

D.Carleton

 They call us "naive" and "childish" for thinking we are going to build and run high-speed trains when we cannot run the passenger trains we already have effectively. 

Amtrak does a pretty good job on the NEC.  From 2012 through 2016 the Acela’s had an 84.6 percent on-time average at their endpoints and 84.6 percent at their intermediate stations.  The numbers for the NEC regionals were 80.4 and 82.3...

 

The State Supported trains also have a decent on-time performance record.  From 2012 through 2016 they were on-time an average of 78.5 percent at their endpoints and 82.2 percent at their intermediate stations.

Those numbers are laughable. Respectable looks like this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/17/japanese-rail-company-apologises-train-20-seconds-early

[aegrotatio]

Nobody actually wants high-speed rail.  They want more frequent versions of today's rail.  Class 8 track is already expensive.  Class 9 is an infinitely deep money hole.

Nobody cares if their 3:20 trip is now 3:05.

[Gramp]

I'm still hoping and pulling for Texas Central. In my book, the only chance for world-class rail passenger service anywhere in the U.S.

[blue streak 1]

PNWRMNM

Streak,

The Mayor of Columbus may not know, but you certainly should, that is is physically impossible to run a 220 MPH train on a pre-civil war snake-like alignment. It would have to be from scratch every foot of the way.

Mac 

MAC:  Absolutely.  Half the A&WP tracks would require realignment ATL - Newnan.  All of Cof GA from Newnan to Raymond and about 35% Raymond - Columbus.  The biggest passenger loads would come from Fort Benning.

[Paul of Covington]

aegrotatio

Nobody actually wants high-speed rail.  They want more frequent versions of today's rail.  Class 8 track is already expensive.  Class 9 is an infinitely deep money hole.

Nobody cares if their 3:20 trip is now 3:05.

 

   Ah, the voice of reason.   The obsession over top speed is just for bragging rights.  You're not going to compete with the airlines for speed.   The length of time your trip takes starts from the time you are ready to start.   If you have to wait four hours till the next train leaves, your trip takes (using your example) 7:20 or 7:05.   With hourly service, the maximum time your trip takes is 4:20 or 4:05.   Ideally, service would be so frequent that you wouldn't bother looking at a schedule.   Just show up and hop the next train.

[charlie hebdo]

There are practical reasons for HSR.  Other countries have/build it not for "braggin' rights" or some other ridiculous reason.  Opponents of HSR for the US on here oppose because they fear their taxes might be used or increase and that the freight railroads will suffer.  An up-to-date infrastructure is an important component in a prosperous economy and national security. 

[MidlandMike]

aegrotatio

Nobody actually wants high-speed rail.  They want more frequent versions of today's rail.  Class 8 track is already expensive.  Class 9 is an infinitely deep money hole.

Nobody cares if their 3:20 trip is now 3:05.

 

And yet Amtrak's Acela supports a premium priced service that is incrementally faster, just so as your example.

[blue streak 1]

All the route from Columbus to Atlanta would need is MAS 110 MPH with no slow sections.  That would mean :59 minutes for the trip which would only need 3 train sets to maintain hourly service. + spare set.  Much less costly and up and running less calendar years.

[PNWRMNM]

Mrs. Mayor is quite clear she wants 220 MPH. If you want a train an hour all day, even at 110 MPH, you are going to have to either build a new line or steal the current line from its owners as that frequency of passenger trains will preclude any freight MOVEMENT on the existing line.

[PJS1]

Those numbers are laughable. Respectable looks like this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/17/japanese-rail-company-apologises-train-20-seconds-early

The article is a testimonial by a few people about their experiences. No valid system-wide statistical data for an extended period, which is what the Amtrak numbers represent, is presented.  Without comprehensive system data it is difficult to know how the Japanese system, as an example, stacks up against other countries.

 

The Amtrak numbers that I presented represent five years of data for the whole Amtrak network as well as its major components.  What would be interesting would be the dispersion from the "late" mean for the trains that are late.  Knowing the percentage of Amtrak's trains that were late by one minute, two minutes, five minutes, etc. could clarify the statistics. 

[BLS53]

bratkinson

These days, the NIMBYs can and have defeated nearly all proposals for true high speed rail due to everything from protected lands and critters to loss of aestetic 'beauty' of the land, and on and on and on.  They're still fighting Brightline in Florida! 

I hate to sound like a pessimist, but in light of the anti-everything 'new' these days, it looks like the USA will continue to stumble along with very minimal increments to train speed.

 

If the NIMBY movement had started a century earlier, I dare think what our transportation network would look like today.

[Overmod]

BLS53

If the NIMBY movement had started a century earlier, I dare think what our transportation network would look like today.

What you might want to consider: it DID start earlier, and much of our transportation network was shaped by it then.  Plenty of examples (usually written about 'disparagingly' in the press a generation or so later!) about towns that didn't want the dangerous, messy, dirty railroad anywhere near them, or landowners who didn't want the ROW to cross their property and could fight eminent-domain claims.

It might be argued that more stringent restrictions on some 'competitive' construction would have resulted in stronger railroads by the '40s and less need for 'sweeping Government reforms' to keep much of the Northeastern presence from following the Old and Weary.  Of course, after the reforms much of that actually came to pass, albeit in a more organized fashion ... [grits teeth thinking of the CASO]

[Deggesty]

Yes, people in various towns refused to let a projected railroad pass through their towns. One example is that of the residents of Sandersville, Georgia, who refused to let the Central of Georgia pass through their beloved town--so the CoG built through Tennille, four miles away. Not long afterwards, the same people realized the  advantages of rail transportation, and the Sandersville and Tennille was built to connect the two towns.

[Deggesty]

Quoting blue streak 1 "Its all about the fast food generation.   Several McDonalds in our area were rebuilt.  From closing to demo to new building to reopening took an average of 60 - 70 days.  Biggest complaint from public.  " Why is it taking so long ?""

The correct answer to the question is that no one has a magic wand to wave so that an instantaneous change will come about.

By the way, I received nothing on this thread since my last post came through; I had several posts in my email today just before my current response.

[BLS53]

Overmod

 

 

BLS53

If the NIMBY movement had started a century earlier, I dare think what our transportation network would look like today.

 

 

What you might want to consider: it DID start earlier, and much of our transportation network was shaped by it then.  Plenty of examples (usually written about 'disparagingly' in the press a generation or so later!) about towns that didn't want the dangerous, messy, dirty railroad anywhere near them, or landowners who didn't want the ROW to cross their property and could fight eminent-domain claims.

It might be argued that more stringent restrictions on some 'competitive' construction would have resulted in stronger railroads by the '40s and less need for 'sweeping Government reforms' to keep much of the Northeastern presence from following the Old and Weary.  Of course, after the reforms much of that actually came to pass, albeit in a more organized fashion ... [grits teeth thinking of the CASO]

 

Perhaps "started" was a poor choice on my part. Let's replace it with "gained momentum".

The point is all those railroads, highways, and airports got built regardless of various factions of public outcry. They wouldn't today.

Anyone who wants to compare pre-1970 environmentalism, with what has come forth since, has a peculiar view of history. 

The landmark event was the creation of the EPA. NIMBY's didn't have any Federal teeth until then.