We'll see where this goes, this is one of three proposed schedules. I prefer the extension of the Heartland Flyer to Kansas City with the addition of sleeping cars, they can keep the diner and lounge car, I think both are unnecessary.
http://guthrienewspage.com/2017/06/amtrak-train-making-a-stop-in-guthrie-possible-expansion-coming/
7:45am CDT DP Oklahoma City Santa Fe Station (downtown)8:30am DP Guthrie9:15am DP Perry10:00am DP Ponca City10:45am DP Ark City12:05pm DP Wichita1:00pm DP Newton2:20pm DP Emporia3:45pm DP Topeka5:30pm AR Kansas City Union Station
9:45 vs driving 5 hours vs the Greyhound, 7:25 for a 350 mile run = ~36 mph.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
1'45" from Topeka to KC is a lot of padding.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
They must 'mingle' with the BNSF Transcon from Mulvane through Wichita, Newton and Emporia plus Holiday to KC. If its a busy day for freight lets see what happens.
schlimm9:45 vs driving 5 hours vs the Greyhound, 7:25 for a 350 mile run = ~36 mph. Add Quo
I should have said "roughly representative" of the daytime schedule because typically they give speaches at each stop if there is a crowd there. It's not only to evaluate track conditions but traffic on the line as well as local support and enthusiasm for the train.............thats why they made the schedule public in advance. So the train remains halted at each depot longer than it would normally take to board the passengers and be on it's way.
This effort got more momentum as soon as they added the Amtrak Thruway bus to Newton, KS from OKC and were shocked how many people rode that ridiculous schedule of 10:30 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. or thereabouts. So that is when Amtrak started to take the proposal of a connection seriously instead of just states making background noise.
Extending the Heartland Flyer north to Newton KS is a no brainer and should have been done long ago. The cost is low and the connections at Newton are very good with both the east bound and west bound Southwest Chief. The return trip southward through Wichita to Oklahoma City is also good, although at an early hour. This is not a perfect Kansas City to Oklahoma City trip, but that would take more money and equipment. Also it should be noted that Oklahoma City and Wichita would now be more directly connected by rail to Chicago and many other cities. They would also be indirectly connected westward with a fair route to Denver, which some of the people from Dallas, Austin and San Antonio could also decide to take.
Amtrak needs to continue connecting the "dots" as money becomes available. Atlanta should not have to go north in order to go south to Florida. Nashville and Columbus OH need to be connected to the system. There are other cities which are poorly served or not directly connected.
Even though this poster mainly concentrates on Eastern trains this seems to be a no brainer. From what has been read -- before Amtrak and after Amtrak operated the Texax chief ridership was very high. The only problem to start thru service will be the lack of capacity. It could be the best way would be say a 14 - 16 car train from CHI then split / combine train for LAX and FTW.
Eventually maybe service onto Houston.
How to get the additional equipment ? Above our pay grade.
extreme speculation --- When additional V-2 sleepers available make Capitol single level and assign those cars to this combined train ?
blue streak 1Eventually maybe service onto Houston.
A cheaper move would be Austin, TX to Houston, TX connecting with the Texas Eagle and also jointly marketing with some of the Cruise lines using the port of Houston and use the Texas Eagle route as an extension of a Carribean Cruise.
Videos of the train on June 9th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL6zsDL2MF8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH11wj0G5T0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L2vVBrypNE
CMStPnP blue streak 1 Eventually maybe service onto Houston. A cheaper move would be Austin, TX to Houston, TX connecting with the Texas Eagle and also jointly marketing with some of the Cruise lines using the port of Houston and use the Texas Eagle route as an extension of a Carribean Cruise.
blue streak 1 Eventually maybe service onto Houston.
What traffic does this line have? Is it slated for PTC installation?
Johnny
Great videos...sure is a lot of enthusiasm. Wouldn't it be nice if that observation inspection car could be a regular addition to passenger trains. Probably not due to a number of things but it sure would make for some great PR. Every kid would want to ride in that.
Deggesty How good is the track between Austin and Houston?
Not so good from the looks of things.
There is no direct track from Austin to Houston. The Austin and Western owns the line as far east as Giddings, but it only operates it to Elgin, where it interchanges with the UP. The line from Elgin to Giddings has been quarantined.
There is no direct line from Giddings to Hempstead. There is a line from Hempstead to Houston, and there is a line from Houston to Galveston. Getting from Austin to Houston on the current rails would be a roundabout exercise.
TXDOT has identified Austin to Houston as a potential passenger rail corridor, but developing it probably would require a large sum of money. Turning the corridor into a viable passenger train corridor appears to be a long way off.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
If it is such a no-brainer, they why did Amtrak abandon their train that ran this route?
Also. if ATK separated/combined this train at Newton, then it would probably be determined to be a section of SW Chief, and ATK would have to cover operational deficits without state support.
MidlandMike If it is such a no-brainer, they why did Amtrak abandon their train that ran this route? Also. if ATK separated/combined this train at Newton, then it would probably be determined to be a section of SW Chief, and ATK would have to cover operational deficits without state support.
It's never going to be joined with the SW Chief.
The proposals were.......
1. OKC to Newton, KS terminating there and running as a seperate train.
2. OKC to KCUS and running as a seperate state supported train.
3. Combining with the Heartland Flyer from Ft Worth and running overnight to Newton as one train and terminating in Newton.
4. Combining with the Heartland Flyer from Ft. Worth and running overnight to KCUS and terminating in KC.
Additionally OK was looking at restoring OKC to Tulsa service. Some murmurs of a test train via Ed Ellis I believe floated the idea but so far nothing has happened on that route. Not sure if the OKC-Tulsa route is still viable now or off the table.
Since this new train if it ever runs will be state supported my guess is they will run it independently of the Heartland Flyer as a daylight run to Newton from OKC vs. attempting to combine with the Heartland Flyer. We will see though. Niether KS or OK is what you would call cash rich when it comes to state budget so niether has a lot of money to contribute for this.
Sunday, June 11, 2017.
The AMTRAK Inspection Train was to run on Friday June 9,2017.
Route via BNSF from Ark City to Mulvane to Wichita, and on via Newton to final in KC area(?).
The news of this trip was published on June 5 in the Trains NEWSWire. It was reported to to happen on June 9th, and gave departure times at origin in OKC and arrive in KC.
The local media reported it in advance as Thursday, June 8,
and not Friday,June 9th ? I had watced on the 8th at Mulvane Jct.
... No Train!
So Far, in the local Media... Crickets!
Local TV stations had carried the news of the impending event, Now, Nada!
Anyone HERE got an Information?
JPS1Not so good from the looks of things. There is no direct track from Austin to Houston. The Austin and Western owns the line as far east as Giddings, but it only operates it to Elgin, where it interchanges with the UP. The line from Elgin to Giddings has been quarantined. There is no direct line from Giddings to Hempstead. There is a line from Hempstead to Houston, and there is a line from Houston to Galveston. Getting from Austin to Houston on the current rails would be a roundabout exercise. TXDOT has identified Austin to Houston as a potential passenger rail corridor, but developing it probably would require a large sum of money. Turning the corridor into a viable passenger train corridor appears to be a long way off.
So my take on this is your quoting from the 2011 rail corridor study, which I would point out is 6 years old. Nevertheless if you read the study cover to cover, Austin was initally reached via a now partially abandoned branch off the former Houston and Texas Central Railway's Houston to Dallas mainline which UP now operates as part of the SP Merger. Much of the Western part of that branch is used by Capital Metro and has been restored to decent enough shape that a passenger train could make good time over it. The Eastern part of the branch needs work and no trains operate currently to Giddings.
However the study goes on, the state examines extending their existing purchase and rebuilding of the branch from Giddings to Hempsted which would connect with the UP Eureka subdivision. Which would give them a direct route to Houston from the Austin Depot as it would restore the former H&TC branch fully. Also examined was a route to College Station.
So while there is no direct route now, there might be in the future depending on how the state spends it's money.
Dallas to Houston is going to have almost zero support while the High Speed Rail proposal remains on the table. People are going to ask why they should pay for a competing train that does not even run at half the speed of the proposed HSR train.
I think the key to success on any of these routes, would be the ability to out run the automobile. With the exception of the NEC, I don't see it.
We need some mode of transit that splits the difference in time between the airlines and the car. And priced accordingly as well.
[quote user="Jim200"]
[/quote well said. + 1
The videos are interesting. Overweight people taking pictures of other overweight people taking pictures. This is probably the end we'll see of this proposed train. Not enough population to support the service and once grandpa and grandma take junior for a train ride a couple of stops down the line they'll be back in their cars because the highway will be both cheaper and faster. Plus they can travel on their own schedule and carry all their "stuff" alot easier. OKC to KCUS RIP.
CMStPnP ... Since this new train if it ever runs will be state supported my guess is they will run it independently of the Heartland Flyer as a daylight run to Newton from OKC vs. attempting to combine with the Heartland Flyer. We will see though. Niether KS or OK is what you would call cash rich when it comes to state budget so niether has a lot of money to contribute for this.
...
A daylight run from OKC would preclude a connection to the SWC, so I would guess they would need it to run all the way to KC. However, since Kansas is so anti subsidy, I would imagine they would prefer a shorter run to Newton to connect with the SWC. i.e., a night run.
runnerdude48 The videos are interesting. Overweight people taking pictures of other overweight people taking pictures. This is probably the end we'll see of this proposed train. Not enough population to support the service and once grandpa and grandma take junior for a train ride a couple of stops down the line they'll be back in their cars because the highway will be both cheaper and faster. Plus they can travel on their own schedule and carry all their "stuff" alot easier. OKC to KCUS RIP.
Amtrak's Lone Star which previously used the route was the 7th most popular Long Distance Train in popularity when it was cut and it's primary customer was out of state college students attending large State universities along the route. Not necessarily old people or obeese people. Amtrak beats the Bus and most of those college students do not have their own cars because they are attending the schools in the first place due to their dirt cheap tuition. Not saying I disagree that adding the train might be a financial disappointment but your assertion that there is no market is not true either. If you listened to all the videos one of the State DOT reps mentioned the colleges along the route as a target market which tells me they did their homework before the test train.
You presume far too much on the roads being faster. I've driven Dallas to Joplin, MO then had to cut across the state on the way to Chicago.......the roads are *** in a lot of places (also prone to flooding) and as you near Tulsa you have to drive West like 100 miles to get on the road heading East into MO (lol). It says 5 hours on Mapquest to get to Joplin, Mo from my home........actually took 8 hours due to traffic and the roads. It says 8 hours to KC from my house, I can tell you looking at the distance and the routing......no way. So don't believe what the Internet tells you it's not always right. Eastern OK the roads are crap. Driven to OKC from my house taking I-35, usually always under construction in large sections........good luck making the mapquest driving estimate on that freeway epecially when the two lane freeway reduces to one lane and your stuck behind Joe Lunch pail and his 30 year old Peterbuilt that no longer has the HP to pull a 45 foot trailer. Also back to Eastern OK, lots of Indian Reservations hemming you in on alternative routinges when the roads flood and where there are no Indian Reservations there are large reservoirs of water on both sides of the freeway. So a Detour if you have to take one is going to take you at least 75-100 miles more than likely out of your way. They just do not have a lot of alternate routes in Eastern OK. BTW, detouring across an Indian Reservation.....your braver than I am, tribal law applies and a lot of the tribes are kind of disgruntled still from past history. So be my guest, I'll stay off of them for now.
11 hours min KC to Dallas on a Greyhound and I think that is an Express.........in most cases 12-13 hours. OK border is just 45 min North of my House which is 24 miles from downtown Dallas.
If there is a large college crowd potential here is one thought. By traveling at night on a train the students can sleep both before class or after. That would actually save them time.
Deggestry didn't you do that ?
With long distance trains under the scrutiny, I never understood why Amtrak did not reroute the Eagle, and run it like they did the Lonestar back in the 70s. Yes Ark. would loose service but it must be cheaper running a combined SWC/Eagle spliting at Newton replacing the Heartland too in the process than running the route it does now.
Were you prepared to drive him all the way to the KC airport if the SWC was late?
longhorn1969 ....I never understood why Amtrak did not reroute the Eagle, and run it like they did the Lonestar back in the 70s.
....I never understood why Amtrak did not reroute the Eagle, and run it like they did the Lonestar back in the 70s.
Prior to 1955, when the Gainesville to Dallas cutoff was completed, Dallas passengers had to take a connecting bus from Fort Worth to Big D. After the cutoff was completed, a Dallas section (Nos. 115 and 116) was added to the Texas Chief. Cars for Dallas were cutoff or added to the Chief at Gainesville. Stations served were Denton, White Rock (North Dallas), and Dallas Union Station. The Dallas section had a through sleeper and at least one through coach. Whether it had any food service is not clear. The southbound section left Gainesville at 12:44 p.m. and arrived in Dallas at 2:35 p.m. The northbound section left Dallas at 12:10 p.m. and arrived in Gainesville at 1:4 p.m.
Jim200 Extending the Heartland Flyer north to Newton KS is a no brainer and should have been done long ago. The cost is low.......
Extending the Heartland Flyer north to Newton KS is a no brainer and should have been done long ago. The cost is low.......
Amtrak, NARP, etc. cannot shake their 1950s mindset. They usually want to run a train every day, even when there is little demand for it, just because it is the way that it was always done. The service should be fit to the likely demand!
JPS1 Jim200 Extending the Heartland Flyer north to Newton KS is a no brainer and should have been done long ago. The cost is low....... The number of Heartland Flyer passengers declined from 87,873 in 2012 to 69,006 in 2016, and the average load factor declined from 45.6 to 40.7 percent. Whether extending the Flyer to Kansas would change the load factors is unknown. From 2012 through 2016 total revenues for the Flyer increased from $5.4 to $6.6 million, and the operating loss declined from $3.8 million to approximately $1 million. The reduction in the operating losses was due primarily to a significant drop in operating expenses. Ticket revenues declined from $2.1 million in 2012 to $1.8 million in 2016, which is partially reflected in the ridership decline. Operating costs were $7.6 million in 2016, which left Oklahoma, Texas, and Amtrak on the hook to make up the $5.8 million difference between ticket revenues and operating costs, which do not include depreciation and interest. The average subsidy per passenger – ticket revenues - before depreciation, interest, etc. increased from $81 in 2012 to $84 in 2016. Presumably similar subsidies would be required to extend the train to Kansas points. Maybe the best outcome would be a weekend train instead of a daily operation. Run it when people are likely to use it, which in the case of the Flyer appears to be the weekends. Amtrak, NARP, etc. cannot shake their 1950s mindset. They usually want to run a train every day, even when there is little demand for it, just because it is the way that it was always done. The service should be fit to the likely demand!
Very true, as don oltmann has pointed out many times about Amtrak's mindset.
JPS1Amtrak, NARP, etc. cannot shake their 1950s mindset. They usually want to run a train every day, even when there is little demand for it, just because it is the way that it was always done. The service should be fit to the likely demand!
Wrong motivation entirely and NARP has not played anything but a bit player role here. Look at the proposed DOT HSR Corridors in this country, they are trying to get on that list of future federal funds.....thats the main underlying driving factor. That and there is some Economic Benefits to the small towns along the route with limited other options.
The train to OKC was created from Fort Worth because the public demanded it via personally lobbying George Bush in the Texas Governors mansion. Amtrak was initially ruluctant but then when they saw the grass roots support jumped on the initiative. I still remember in part the complex agreement that was struck to get the Heartland Flyer running. Initially they either had to rehab or hoc a set of ex-Santa Fe Hi-Level passenger equipment. Then there was a loan or something. Mostly Superliner now so not sure what happened to the first set of Santa Fe equipment they had to put up. George Bush was pushed into supporting start-up of the train via grass roots political pressure though. Can't blame it on Amtrak nor was it largely a NARP initiative.
The first or second time they threatened a cut against the Texas Eagle, likewise the TEMPO organization got started. Amtrak cooperates with that organization but in no shape or form did Amtrak organize it. Again another largely Texas based grass roots effort, IMHO. Can't really blame Amtrak when the public activates in support of it's passenger trains.
Amtrak did have something to do with the extension of the Heartland Flyer though, when it saw the moderate patronage on it's new bus connection to Newton it did approach the states and tap them on the shoulder because they had just got funding for the SWC track upgrades from one of them. So Amtrak saw money it might be able to pull in to support another train.
CMStPnP Wrong motivation entirely ..... likewise the TEMPO organization got started. Amtrak cooperates with that organization but in no shape or form did Amtrak organize it
Wrong motivation entirely ..... likewise the TEMPO organization got started. Amtrak cooperates with that organization but in no shape or form did Amtrak organize it
Does wrong motivation mean that Amtrak's as well as its supporter's motivation is wrong regarding how to configure and extend the Heartland Flyer, or does it mean that the interpretation of Amtrak's motivation - strategic planning - is wrong?
The main point of the post is ridership on the Heartland Flyer has been declining since 2012, and the costs to Oklahoma and Texas have been increasing steadily. Whether the trend, especially the subsidy per passenger, could be reversed by extending the train to Kansas is problematic.
The following statement is from TEMPO's webpage. Presumably they know how they came into existence.
“TEMPO was created by Amtrak at the request of the Texas Eagle Mayors’ Coalition, to establish a mechanism for local input to Amtrak on issues affecting the Eagle.”
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