On Duty Amtrak Conductor Shot by Passenger

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On Duty Amtrak Conductor Shot by Passenger
Posted by greyhounds on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 12:27 AM

I wonder what the perp was thinking?  Why would he shoot the conductor?

This is sickening.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/1-person-shot-near-naperville-metra-station/2000832/

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 8:14 AM

Perhaps airline-style security screens are next?

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 9:17 AM

Look for the lawsuit and subsequent consent decree mandating gun searches for all passengers boarding Amtrak trains.  Probably metal-detector archways ... like in so many public schools.

Something that makes little sense to me yet:  this 70-year-old man sees the conductor on the platform, opens the window and shoots him ... can you get those windows open without popping them out?

It will be interesting to hear the rationale, and learn the circumstances, when the official investigation reports come out.

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Tuesday, May 23, 2017 6:24 PM

Superliner vestibule door window opens, Only ones on a superliner that open. Story was that he wanted to get off and was not allowed and got mad . Suspect he thought it was a smoke stop which it wasn't at "lost it" Some earlier false news stories claimed he shot from a Metra train which have no opening windows. 

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Posted by RME on Tuesday, May 23, 2017 6:38 PM

Electroliner 1935
Story was that he wanted to get off and was not allowed and got mad . Suspect he thought it was a smoke stop which it wasn't and "lost it"

Chicago Tribune has a fairly detailed story which fleshes the thing out a bit.  Klein apparently had a tiff with people at his assisted-living facility and took off for Las Vegas, then reconsidered in Kansas City and started back for Milwaukee.  Details still a bit unclear, but he apparently had at least two 'altercations' with the staff or passengers (which may have involved waving the gun), then wanted to get off at Naperville to get to Milwaukee quicker and the Amtrak staff (perhaps highly understandably) "wouldn't let him off the train" to try it.  I suspect much of the subsequent discussion may involve what he 'thought' the crew did to keep him there; he got so mad he shot Mr. Case for it.

Apparently he cheerfully acknowledged that he 'blew him away' and then acted as if he were going back to Milwaukee the next day.  Ah, to have the arrogant power of a Homeland Security Federal Protective Services mindset!

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, May 23, 2017 7:08 PM

RME
Electroliner 1935

Chicago Tribune has a fairly detailed story which fleshes the thing out a bit.  Klein apparently had a tiff with people at his assisted-living facility and took off for Las Vegas, then reconsidered in Kansas City and started back for Milwaukee.  Details still a bit unclear, but he apparently had at least two 'altercations' with the staff or passengers (which may have involved waving the gun), then wanted to get off at Naperville to get to Milwaukee quicker and the Amtrak staff (perhaps highly understandably) "wouldn't let him off the train" to try it.  I suspect much of the subsequent discussion may involve what he 'thought' the crew did to keep him there; he got so mad he shot Mr. Case for it.

Apparently he cheerfully acknowledged that he 'blew him away' and then acted as if he were going back to Milwaukee the next day.  Ah, to have the arrogant power of a Homeland Security Federal Protective Services mindset!

and having lost touch with reality at the same time.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 23, 2017 7:38 PM

RME

 

 
Electroliner 1935
Story was that he wanted to get off and was not allowed and got mad . Suspect he thought it was a smoke stop which it wasn't and "lost it"

 

Chicago Tribune has a fairly detailed story which fleshes the thing out a bit.  Klein apparently had a tiff with people at his assisted-living facility and took off for Las Vegas, then reconsidered in Kansas City and started back for Milwaukee.  Details still a bit unclear, but he apparently had at least two 'altercations' with the staff or passengers (which may have involved waving the gun), then wanted to get off at Naperville to get to Milwaukee quicker and the Amtrak staff (perhaps highly understandably) "wouldn't let him off the train" to try it.  I suspect much of the subsequent discussion may involve what he 'thought' the crew did to keep him there; he got so mad he shot Mr. Case for it.

Apparently he cheerfully acknowledged that he 'blew him away' and then acted as if he were going back to Milwaukee the next day.  Ah, to have the arrogant power of a Homeland Security Federal Protective Services mindset!

 

 

If he had waved his gun, should not an Amtrak employee attempted to take it from him? Of course, that could well have been a dangerous move.

I doubt that it was known by the people where he lived that he had a gun in his possession. Certainly, it could be dangerous to staff and other residents for any weapon possession to be allowed. Where I live, no guns, swords, or other such weapons are allowed. I do have my pocket knife (which I consider using, at times, in the dining room when the meat is tough) and a letter opener.

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Posted by BrassBootleg on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 3:24 AM

Deggesty

 

 
RME

 

 
Electroliner 1935
Story was that he wanted to get off and was not allowed and got mad . Suspect he thought it was a smoke stop which it wasn't and "lost it"

 

Chicago Tribune has a fairly detailed story which fleshes the thing out a bit.  Klein apparently had a tiff with people at his assisted-living facility and took off for Las Vegas, then reconsidered in Kansas City and started back for Milwaukee.  Details still a bit unclear, but he apparently had at least two 'altercations' with the staff or passengers (which may have involved waving the gun), then wanted to get off at Naperville to get to Milwaukee quicker and the Amtrak staff (perhaps highly understandably) "wouldn't let him off the train" to try it.  I suspect much of the subsequent discussion may involve what he 'thought' the crew did to keep him there; he got so mad he shot Mr. Case for it.

Apparently he cheerfully acknowledged that he 'blew him away' and then acted as if he were going back to Milwaukee the next day.  Ah, to have the arrogant power of a Homeland Security Federal Protective Services mindset!

 

 

 

 

If he had waved his gun, should not an Amtrak employee attempted to take it from him? Of course, that could well have been a dangerous move.

 

I doubt that it was known by the people where he lived that he had a gun in his possession. Certainly, it could be dangerous to staff and other residents for any weapon possession to be allowed. Where I live, no guns, swords, or other such weapons are allowed. I do have my pocket knife (which I consider using, at times, in the dining room when the meat is tough) and a letter opener.

 

Good way to get fired...  Amtrak has a police department, along with security teams and local law enforcement.  "Regular" employees (read: non-law enforcement) aren't expected to put themselves in danger by attempting to disarm a suspect.  And in fact, can land you in hot water.  Our concern is meant to be the safety of the passengers, by getting them to a safe area away from the person.  (ie. don't be a hero)

Also, it's been considered/on the table for ages to bring in metal detectors and such. 

An artist sees the world in colors and patterns.  An engineer sees the world in mathematical equations.  Both help shape the World and are just as important as the other.

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 7:35 AM

It is most certainly NOT the job of any Amtrak on-train personnel to 'wrestle guns away' from passengers brandishing them; although I am still unsure how the situation could have gone on as long as it seems, from the Trib story with 20/20 hindsight, to have persisted. Reading between the lines, he was either shown considerable tolerance or substantial deference from the people who had to deal with him.  I suspect on my favorite Fascist light rail system into San Jose, he'd have been taken in hand by the blackshirts within no more than a couple of minutes after the first of his 'altercations', FPS street cred or not.

It led me to wonder whether Amtrak personnel don't have a quick and reliable system to inform 'the outside world' when there is a situation involving some Colin Ferguson wannabe.  That would be something for the Euclids of this forum to collaborate with the Amtrak veterans on this forum to develop and refine.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 10:46 AM

RME
It led me to wonder whether Amtrak personnel don't have a quick and reliable system to inform 'the outside world' when there is a situation involving some Colin Ferguson wannabe.  That would be something for the Euclids of this forum to collaborate with the Amtrak veterans on this forum to develop and refine.

The normal means for Amtrak personnel to deal with 'unruly' passengers is for the crew to notify the Train Dispatcher to have the train met at a point chosen by the Amtrak crew by local authorities - the point chosen may be a scheduled station stop or a particular road crossing that is known to both the crew and the authorities.  Amtrak crews are not the police.

In this particular incident, I suspect the Amtrak crew did not deem the 'altercations' were sufficient to warrant involving local authorities.  A judgement call by the Amtrak crew.

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:37 AM

RME

It is most certainly NOT the job of any Amtrak on-train personnel to 'wrestle guns away' from passengers brandishing them; although I am still unsure how the situation could have gone on as long as it seems, from the Trib story with 20/20 hindsight, to have persisted. Reading between the lines, he was either shown considerable tolerance or substantial deference from the people who had to deal with him.  I suspect on my favorite Fascist light rail system into San Jose, he'd have been taken in hand by the blackshirts within no more than a couple of minutes after the first of his 'altercations', FPS street cred or not.

It led me to wonder whether Amtrak personnel don't have a quick and reliable system to inform 'the outside world' when there is a situation involving some Colin Ferguson wannabe.  That would be something for the Euclids of this forum to collaborate with the Amtrak veterans on this forum to develop and refine.

 

All well and good but a "shutting the barn door after..." situation.

I wonder exactly what Klein's living arrangements were?  Assisted living often runs the gamut from helping with meds to memory care (Alzheimer's but ambulatory).  Firearms possesion is generally not allowed in such facilities, as another poster previously pointed out.

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:24 PM

schlimm
All well and good but a "shutting the barn door after..." situation.

Ah, but I think Klein is far from the last south end of a northbound horse that tries to go out of Amtrak's barn.  And as I said the emphasis should be more effective handling of the horses than making everyone pass through the needle's eye to get in or out of the barn hereafter...

I wonder exactly what Klein's living arrangements were?

The Trib story had quite a few details - apparently it was 'independent living' that gave him comparatively little oversight.  I'm sure much more in detail will come up as the investigation proceeds.

I am glad I won't be called for the jury in this trial.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:23 PM

Where I live, several kinds of living are offered.

There is the "Memory Section," which is for residents who have great problems with memory; I have never been in that section, so I really know no detail.

There is a "Skilled Nursing floor," which offers vsrying degrees of nursing care, according to the resident's need, and a quite active physical/occupational therapy section (for which I give thanks for the help I was given when I was on that floor).

The assisted living section, which is where I am, offers different levels of assisted living, ranging from housekeeping and laundry (which are of help to me) as well as three meals a day, in the dining room or by tray service to the room (I eat in the dining room) to watching over the resident's medicinal needs (I take care  of mine).

There is a weekly shopping trip to what might be called a general store of today; there are bus tours of the city and the area; medical visits, using  the facility's bus, are available two days a week. There is a weekly entertainment with visiting musicians.

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 3:08 PM

Deggesty
Where I live, several kinds of living are offered. There is the "Memory Section," which is for residents who have great problems with memory; I have never been in that section, so I really know no detail. There is a "Skilled Nursing floor," which offers vsrying degrees of nursing care, according to the resident's need, and a quite active physical/occupational therapy section (for which I give thanks for the help I was given when I was on that floor). The assisted living section, which is where I am, offers different levels of assisted living, ranging from housekeeping and laundry (which are of help to me) as well as three meals a day, in the dining room or by tray service to the room (I eat in the dining room) to watching over the resident's medicinal needs (I take care  of mine).

Johnny:  You also said, "Where I live, no guns, swords, or other such weapons are allowed. "  

I wonder why the facility in which he lived in Wisconsin would allow weapons, unless he acquired it on his journey.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 4:19 PM

schlimm

 

 
Deggesty
Where I live, several kinds of living are offered. There is the "Memory Section," which is for residents who have great problems with memory; I have never been in that section, so I really know no detail. There is a "Skilled Nursing floor," which offers vsrying degrees of nursing care, according to the resident's need, and a quite active physical/occupational therapy section (for which I give thanks for the help I was given when I was on that floor). The assisted living section, which is where I am, offers different levels of assisted living, ranging from housekeeping and laundry (which are of help to me) as well as three meals a day, in the dining room or by tray service to the room (I eat in the dining room) to watching over the resident's medicinal needs (I take care  of mine).

 

Johnny:  You also said, "Where I live, no guns, swords, or other such weapons are allowed. "  

I wonder why the facility in which he lived in Wisconsin would allow weapons, unless he acquired it on his journey.

 

Schlimm, if there was such a restriction where he was living (and I expect that there is such), it is quite possible that the man thought that he was above conforming to the restriction--just as many people believe that community/state laws forbidding the possession of guns do not apply to them.

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Posted by greyhounds on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:10 PM

Well, we've got two threads going on this topic.  I'll post this information and opinion to this one.

Here's an update from the paper:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/naperville-sun/news/ct-nvs-amtrak-conductor-shooting-follow-st-0526-20170524-story.html

There is some conflict on whether this 79 year old had the legal right to carry the gun.  He lived in Wisconsin.  That state had revoked his concealed carry permit.  Amtrak itself prohibits possessing guns on the train.  But, he was a retired cop - which may have given him the right to be armed.

In any event, I don't think we need new laws and expenses to deal with things such as this very unusual event.  The shooting of the conductor was very tragic.  But, we are not plagued with older folks with guns shooting people.  

We can't make laws and procedures for every possibility.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 25, 2017 7:57 AM

Whether or not the man legally had the gun, he shot another man who was doing him no bodily harm. I wll let the legal system handle the matter.

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Posted by ROBERT WILLISON on Thursday, May 25, 2017 10:27 AM

Deggesty

Whether or not the man legally had the gun, he shot another man who was doing him no bodily harm. I wll let the legal system handle the matter.

 

well said + 1

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