daveklepperThe once a year trip of a wounded veteran to visit his family across couintry made possible by Amtrak and its hadnicapped room on long distance trains should be as important as the several-times-a-week business trip in the NEC.
But it isn't, for any reason regarding money or national priorities, and in particular that 'once-a-year' visit won't pay for lugging that handicapped room across America what might be the rest of the year, as opposed to the marginal revenue from the example number of NEC trips.
It also doesn't tell how the veteran got to the train, doubtless from somewhere reasonably distant, or will get to his actual destination address.
Far better to give him a couple of thousand, link him up with Angels Flight, and provide Uber vouchers or limo service at both ends -- then publicize how we care for our vets. It would be cheaper!
That is typical New York thinking. Everything is not just about the City. There is a big country out there way past Queens and the people who live there actually travel from state to state. Some even go beyond New Jersey! We can not just depend on air travel its too precarious and not everybody can get on an airpalnce. besides that it sucks and they beat you up if you dont obey their orders.
Agreed.
It has also been stated recently that the NEC has about $20+ Billion in deferred maintenace, aka capital expenditures. Packaged up in a P3 bond that might be about $1400 million a year, there go the "profits".
The once a year trip of a wounded veteran to visit his family across couintry made possible by Amtrak and its hadnicapped room on long distance trains should be as important as the several-times-a-week business trip in the NEC.
It's the old vicious circle. If you have more frequent and convenient service, more people would use it. If you don't have many people using it, you can't justify the expense of more frequent service. Meanwhile, enjoy the weekend in N.O.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
It is my opinion that one of the primary reasons the Sunset Limited does not have the ridership of some of the other LD trains is that it remains tri-weekly. Example: I get to New Orleans on a Friday night from San Antonio. I can return from New Orleans Saturday morning (arriving S.A. early Sunday AM) or I have to wait until Monday morning (arriving in S.A. early Tues AM). Saturday is too soon to leave and Monday is too late.
Well then, I hope that DC and the states from Maryland to Massachuetts don't expect the rest of the country to pay for the Northeast Corridor via federal taxation.Let these pay for immense capital expenditures needed that are not included in evaluations of Northeast Corridor financial viablity that show "millions of dollars of profit." Garbage.
Let's not forget why Amtrak was created. Private rail companies, mandated to run passenger trains were losing substantial revenue and the only viable way fo overcome this was for the federal government to take over what was/is a vital mode if transportation. Rail transportation infrastructure remains important to a vital economy. Mr. Shumer is self interested and short-sighted as his concrns are limited to his arrogant posture to protect only his constituents (NY residents). His gift of oratory is no excuse for killing passenger rail across the US.
The infrastucture of the Northeast Corridor is also used by several local commuter authorities as well. Break up the NEC and you will jam highways from Albany NY to Richmond VA
JPS1 If the long distance trains are a critical for small town America, how come they don't serve the following communities in Texas: Abilene, Midland, Odessa, Corpus Christi, Harlingen, Brownsville, McAllen, Amarillo, and Lubbock? All these cities have substantial populations. Their only commercial passenger transport services are provided by buses or airlines. The argument that Amtrak’s long distance trains provide a vital service that could not be provided by buses or better air service is not supported by the data. Meanwhile, the long distance trains have been the largest contributor to Amtrak’s continuing operating losses for decades. Whereas the NEC and the State Support trains have the potential to cover most if not all of their fully allocated costs, I cannot think of anyone who believes that the long distance trains will ever get there. The answer to the regional political support argument is simple. Privatize Amtrak. It probably could make a go of it in the NEC, especially if an third party took control of the infrastructure. And several of the state corridors, with the right price and expense controls, probably could make a go of it in their corridors. But the long distance trains probably will never make a go of it. Why should the federal government be in the passenger railroad business? It let numerous airlines and at least one major intercity bus company fold because they failed. It did not establish a national airline or a national bus company. It should get out of the railroad passenger business.
If the long distance trains are a critical for small town America, how come they don't serve the following communities in Texas: Abilene, Midland, Odessa, Corpus Christi, Harlingen, Brownsville, McAllen, Amarillo, and Lubbock? All these cities have substantial populations. Their only commercial passenger transport services are provided by buses or airlines. The argument that Amtrak’s long distance trains provide a vital service that could not be provided by buses or better air service is not supported by the data.
cbq9911aThe reality is that long distance trains serve a real transportation function. They serve places that don't have the population to support air service. They serve places where driving is dangerous at certain times. Example - the Empire Builder between Minneapolis and Spokane. The 22 stops between the two cities provide enough traffic to justify a train. Maybe 4 of the stops can justify air service.
What is your destination of "justifying a train" as opposed to "justifying air service"? Unless you've been on the EB, you probably can't name most of the 22 towns between them. Nobody lives there, nobody wants to go there, so no they don't deserve rail service, at least federally funded. If Montana and North Dakota wants trains, they should have to pay for it. They're not paying for the Pennsylvanian, why should be in Pennsylvania have to pay for their worthless crap?
"One way to privatize the NEC would be to spin the infrastructure off to a separate non-profit entity. Give it the same tax advantages enjoyed by airports and highways, ie. no taxes, low cost financing, etc. This would put it on a level platform with other modes of transportation."
Glad you are recognizing that all forms of transportation are being subsidized, even if I don't quite understand why it is only bad if it is certain types of passenger rail. And if the same benefits were provided to the long distant routes and flowed back to Amtrak, their financials would improve dramatically too.
Victrola1 Here’s the reality that a New York representative like Schumer should certainly understand. The safety and convenience of passengers on the heavily traveled Northeast Corridor of Amtrak, including NJ Transit and Long Island Rail Road commuters who ride on trains using Amtrak infrastructure, are being sacrificed for the quixotic notion of maintaining a long-distance national rail system. That system, which includes many lightly traveled lines, has drained Amtrak of its resources for years, sending hundreds of millions of dollars in profits that Amtrak actually earns in the Northeast Corridor to other areas of the country and requiring the train system to go to Congress when it needs money for additional infrastructure investment. https://www.city-journal.org/html/rails-again-and-again-15142.html An article from the City Journal on ending long distance passenger trains to concentrate resources on the Northeast Corridor.
Here’s the reality that a New York representative like Schumer should certainly understand. The safety and convenience of passengers on the heavily traveled Northeast Corridor of Amtrak, including NJ Transit and Long Island Rail Road commuters who ride on trains using Amtrak infrastructure, are being sacrificed for the quixotic notion of maintaining a long-distance national rail system. That system, which includes many lightly traveled lines, has drained Amtrak of its resources for years, sending hundreds of millions of dollars in profits that Amtrak actually earns in the Northeast Corridor to other areas of the country and requiring the train system to go to Congress when it needs money for additional infrastructure investment.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/rails-again-and-again-15142.html
An article from the City Journal on ending long distance passenger trains to concentrate resources on the Northeast Corridor.
The reality is that long distance trains serve a real transportation function. They serve places that don't have the population to support air service. They serve places where driving is dangerous at certain times.
Example - the Empire Builder between Minneapolis and Spokane. The 22 stops between the two cities provide enough traffic to justify a train. Maybe 4 of the stops can justify air service.
MidlandMike While Amtrak says they make their "above the rail costs", they need big subsidies for track, catenary, draw bridges, tunnels, rolling stock, etc. And they need tens of $billions to bring the corridor up to a state of good repair and modern standards. If the corridor was privatized, they would have to pay property taxes in some of the most expensive real estate in the country.
While Amtrak says they make their "above the rail costs", they need big subsidies for track, catenary, draw bridges, tunnels, rolling stock, etc. And they need tens of $billions to bring the corridor up to a state of good repair and modern standards. If the corridor was privatized, they would have to pay property taxes in some of the most expensive real estate in the country.
Based on 2016 figures, if all the operating profit earned on the NEC were dedicated to it, the capital shortage would have been about $225 million, which probably could be covered through a combination of fare increases and expense control.
One way to privatize the NEC would be to spin the infrastructure off to a separate non-profit entity. Give it the same tax advantages enjoyed by airports and highways, ie. no taxes, low cost financing, etc. This would put it on a level platform with other modes of transportation.
Some capital upgrades are needed for the NEC. Whether everything on the wish list is needed or at least needs to be done sooner rather than later is debatable. The capital upgrades, however, should be ultimately paid for by the users.
Open the system to any potential operator that meets the operating and safety standards. If an operator wants to run a bare bones coach train along the NEC, with only peanuts and beverages at a passenger's seat, let him give it a go. Or if an operator wants to run a non-stop train from Washington to New York, with two bottles of booze included in the ticket price, let her have a go at it. Let the market place decide! Just like it has for commercial air, buses, etc.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Who is the "City Journal" and why should I care?
https://www.city-journal.org/ Seems like another front for the CATO Institute.
If I want to read about transit I will read "Metro Magazine" http://www.metro-magazine.com/ BTW went from all bus to mix of rail and bus 15 years ago
BaltACD I know they protect the country and all - but just how much profit has the military turned in the past century? Congress, do they turn a profit for the country? We have been deficit spending for eons.
I know they protect the country and all - but just how much profit has the military turned in the past century? Congress, do they turn a profit for the country? We have been deficit spending for eons.
Indirectly they do in areas but they are not allowed to keep it. For example, even though the Federal Reserve is private because of the monetary intermediation, it is estimated they profit about $20-30 Billion a year at times but that money is returned into the Treasury because they are not allowed to keep money they make over their Federal role of intermediation. Likewise when the Pentagon or DoD invades a country like Iraq they obtain substantial amount of money in various assets such as currency and gold but again it pales in comparison to the invasion cost and likewise they are not allowed to keep the money. Also some additional trade is effected a well. Also, like NASA some DoD inventions say like GPS (and even the Internet) have made it over to the civilian side but the Pentagon is not allowed to license it or profit from it.
A lot of the business and IT programming langugages were created by the DoD Pentagon. COBOL - Navy Dept - Adm Grace Hopper, Assembler - Navy Dept - Adm Grace Hopper, a few more.
Only point I am making is the money does not all go down some dark hole, we do see Economic and sometimes financial returns from some of the government money spent. It's also not a total loss because they are not allowed to license or make a profit on it because even without the profit our Economy gains from the innovation and invention. On the other hand there is also very substantial waste. I would be curious how the equation balances out between waste and innovation benefits but nobody tracks it.
Also when I was in the Army in the early to mid-1980's their imaging technology was on a par much greater than you saw in the movie Star Wars at the time. Today it is even more advanced with FLIR. But I could scan the landscape with a TOW II thermal sight and there was no where a human being could hide without me being able to detect the thermal signature and outline. The sight was so powerful it could see the human body's thermal signature through brush, some types of camoflage netting as well as cardboard. Even when the human was in a house, if they got anywhere near a window I could pick them out. It was pretty amazing back then. I can't even begin to guess how much better FLIR technology is. Warfare is very deadly these days due to our technology and thats why you see the high body counts on the opposing side when we go to war......someday that same technology will be used against us by a rival power like China or Russia. We have been very lucky so far our fights have only been against third world countries with mostly obsolete technology. Very lucky.
Went to the 101st Airborne 2009 reunion and the Active Duty soldiers that were still using the TOW now called ITAS TOW, said the Afghans referred to it as "the Finger of God" because of how precisely accurate it was and the casualties it would inflict.
54light15 This is probably a dumb question but could the NEC exist on its own as a profitable company? Boston to Washington or only NYC-Wash? NY-Phil?
This is probably a dumb question but could the NEC exist on its own as a profitable company? Boston to Washington or only NYC-Wash? NY-Phil?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
JPS1:
Your argument relies strictly on profit and loss. It's another way of restating the old and discredited idea that Government ought to be run just like a business. If the function of Government is to serve the needs of the people, then there are some Government activities that will be necessary, but won't pay for themselves. That's reality.
I agree that Amtrak ought to be run as efficiently as possible, but your draconian approach just ignores the realities of National needs as they meet practicalities.
Tom
In 2016 the NEC had an operating profit of $478.7 million or 24 cents per passenger mile. This was an increase of 829.5 percent over the 2010 results.
We would not have an airline industry without a Department of Defense to keep the airline manufacturers afloat with defense orders. No way would they survive on commercial orders alone. Europeans found out about that a long time ago when they formed Airbus and tried to have it stay purely commercial. Didn't work out for them.
Further, as in the privately run passenger train days, a lot of the airline flights in the United States are only marginally profitable and the only item making them profitable is the air cargo or the mail they carry in the hold. 60 minutes or some national news mag did a story pre-911 before they started all these BS charges on how some flights would fly a long distance roundtrip and only early approx $800-1100 in revenue, then when the mail and some air cargo was added in the revenue increased.
Here is a good documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdleHhes748
It's ironic but we might come to see a day when there are no U.S. Airlines.
Highways, airways, waterways, etc., for the most part, are not commercial businesses. They are infrastructure open to commercial and noncommercial users. They are not expected to earn a profit, but most of the users ultimately pay for them. Arguably the commercial users pay their fair share of the cost of the infrastructure.
The government is not in the intercity bus, airline, waterway, etc. businesses.
[/quote]
I disagree with your premise. Highways, airways, and waterways may not be commercial businesses, but trucking lines, bus lines, airlines, air freight companies, and barge lines are. If the Government subsidizes them, then the Government is participating in those businesses. To suggest that these commercial users actually repay 100% of what the Government spends to serve them (or anything close to that) is laughable. Just look at he Highway Trust Fund and the need to spend extra money on highways year after year to compensate for its shortcomings. It has been amply proven that the lion's share of damage to highways is caused by heavy trucks, and damage from automobiles is almost negligible.
Compared to this, Amtrak L-D is a drop in the bucket.
"A View of the World from 9th Avenue"
http://www.mappery.com/map-of/A-View-of-World-from-9th-Avenue-Map
[quote user="ACY"] Why single out Amtrak? /quote]
In part because Amtrak, which is a commercial business owned by the federal government, is the only commercial transport entity that I know of that gets a large cash subsidy directly from the federal government. For 2010 through 2015 it averaged $1.8 billion per year. In addition, Amtrak was able to borrow $616 million of low cost, federally subsidized loans through the Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing Program.
My argument is not against passenger trains. It is against the long distance trains, which serve less than one percent of intercity travelers.
For the NEC, as well as other potentially viable corridors, privatization of Amtrak could result in a better outcome. This would be especially true if an independent third party owned the infrastructure, and operations were opened to competition. Amtrak is a failed enterprise. It has lost more than $32.5 billion before restatement in 2009 constant dollars. It is time to try something else.
The government is not in the intercity bus, airline, waterway, etc. businesses. Why should it be in the passenger railroad business?
Whether the government's policies regarding airways, highways, waterways, etc. are optimized is irrelevant. The question is how much money should be devoted to passenger rail? And where should it be invested?
It should be noted that the "City Journal" is published by the Manhattan Institute, a think tank with a decidedly conservative point of view.
JPS1 If the long distance trains are a critical for small town America, how come they don't serve the following communities in Texas: Abilene, Midland, Odessa, Corpus Christi, Harlingen, Brownsville, McAllen, Amarillo, and Lubbock? All these cities have substantial populations. Amtrak also doesn't serve my town of Hagerstown, Maryland. Nor does it serve my home town of Akron, Ohio. Nor even the State Capitals of Ohio and Arizona. Nor the entire State of South Dakota. Amtrak does what it can with the limited resources at its disposal. Just because it doesn't do everything you want is no resason to conclude it doesn't do anything anybody wants. Why should the federal government be in the passenger railroad business? It should get out of the railroad passenger business. Indeed. And why should the Federal Government provide an Interstate Highway System at taxpayer expense? And why don't the airlines provide their own air traffic control system instead of relying on the Federal Government and Federal employees? And why don't the Mississippi River barge companies dredge the river to keep the channels clear, instead of relying on the Army Corps of Engineers? The US Government has a lot of transportation policies that can be questioned if you want to look for them. Why single out Amtrak?
If the long distance trains are a critical for small town America, how come they don't serve the following communities in Texas: Abilene, Midland, Odessa, Corpus Christi, Harlingen, Brownsville, McAllen, Amarillo, and Lubbock? All these cities have substantial populations.
Amtrak also doesn't serve my town of Hagerstown, Maryland. Nor does it serve my home town of Akron, Ohio. Nor even the State Capitals of Ohio and Arizona. Nor the entire State of South Dakota. Amtrak does what it can with the limited resources at its disposal. Just because it doesn't do everything you want is no resason to conclude it doesn't do anything anybody wants.
CJtrainguy Philly Amtrak Fan I like the LD system. I've taken Amtrak from Philly to California 3 times the past 20 years. But there are some worthless trains that travel hundreds of miles through the middle of nowhere. If they were replaced with trains that served more people the LD system would be more popular. Just out of curiosity, which are those "worthless" LD lines? Any Amtrak train traveling "hundreds of miles through the middle of nowhere" would at first glance seem to refer to one or more of these: The Sunset Limited, the Southwest Chief, the California Zephyr, the Empire Builder. Certainly it can't refer to any LD train east of the Mississippi, or any of the West Coast trains. I've traveled Chicago-LA on the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited and LA-Chicago on the Southwest Chief and while there are stretches of magnificent open space and mountains, it's not fair to say there's hundreds of miles of nothing. People got on and off at every station along the way, often many more than I thought would be traveling to a station I barely knew existed prior to my trip. I've only traveled Osceola, IA-Denver on the California Zephyr, but it too was well frequented. Driving along I-80 Omaha - Denver seemingly passes a whole lot of nothing, but there are still towns and people out there.
Philly Amtrak Fan I like the LD system. I've taken Amtrak from Philly to California 3 times the past 20 years. But there are some worthless trains that travel hundreds of miles through the middle of nowhere. If they were replaced with trains that served more people the LD system would be more popular.
I like the LD system. I've taken Amtrak from Philly to California 3 times the past 20 years. But there are some worthless trains that travel hundreds of miles through the middle of nowhere. If they were replaced with trains that served more people the LD system would be more popular.
Just out of curiosity, which are those "worthless" LD lines?
Any Amtrak train traveling "hundreds of miles through the middle of nowhere" would at first glance seem to refer to one or more of these: The Sunset Limited, the Southwest Chief, the California Zephyr, the Empire Builder. Certainly it can't refer to any LD train east of the Mississippi, or any of the West Coast trains.
I've traveled Chicago-LA on the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited and LA-Chicago on the Southwest Chief and while there are stretches of magnificent open space and mountains, it's not fair to say there's hundreds of miles of nothing. People got on and off at every station along the way, often many more than I thought would be traveling to a station I barely knew existed prior to my trip.
I've only traveled Osceola, IA-Denver on the California Zephyr, but it too was well frequented. Driving along I-80 Omaha - Denver seemingly passes a whole lot of nothing, but there are still towns and people out there.
I've been on the SWC and CZ. The SWC is a connection from Chicago (and anywhere east of Chicago) to get to LA while the CZ is the same from Chicago to the Bay Area (and also includes Denver and Salt Lake City). Not worthless. The Sunset Limited doesn't have good ridership and revenue but is the only connection between the two most populous states in the US (although the train leaves San Antonio late at night and arrives in Los Angeles before 6am). It would be better with a better schedule (and go back to serving Phoenix) but it serves a purpose.
On the other hand, the Empire Builder is Chicago to Seattle/Portland which is way less populous and IMO less of an tourist attraction. The only other major markets between are Minneapolis, Milwaukee, and Spokane. Amtrak is better off running separate trains between Chicago-Milwaukee-Minneapolis and Seattle-Spokane. Between Minneapolis and Spokane is worthless. Montana and North Dakota are two of the least populous states in the country and the train travels over 500 miles through Montana for a population less than a million. Seattle is two days away from Chicago. So is Florida, a way more attractive destination (and the Floridian also passed through Louisville and Nashville, neither of which have Amtrak service anymore). Now Chicago (and west) passengers to Florida now have to travel to Washington and transfer there (the City of New Orleans would be an option if there was service between New Orleans and Florida).
I would consider the Palmetto worthless. It goes all the way down south to Savannah and stops. That would be like the Lake Shore Limited stopping in South Bend or the Southwest Chief stopping in Flagstaff. But the train does have good ridership (but mostly between New York and Washington).
And the most worthless train to me actually is east of the Mississippi, the Cardinal. We have a Chicago to New York train already and we have a Chicago to Washington train already. If you wanted a second Chicago to New York train, go through Pittsburgh and Philadelphia like the old Broadway Limited/Three Rivers which took about six hours less than the Cardinal. So bypass most of Pennsylvania and force Harrisburg and Lancaster passengers to transfer in Pittsburgh (a horrible transfer, a four hour wait in Pittsburgh westbound) to get to Chicago, run the train another 200 miles and six extra hours and for what? To serve another small population state, West Virginia. The train goes through Indianapolis and Cincinnati but Cincinnati in the graveyard shift both ways and Indy not much better. So we in PA lost our train to Chicago so West Virginia passengers can go to Chicago (or New York)? You can't go from Lancaster or Harrisburg to Chicago but you can go from White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia or Rugby, North Dakota to Chicago? Nashville, Louisville, Columbus, and Las Vegas don't have any trains but Shelby, Montana does? And we're paying tax money for that service. If Amtrak doesn't realize Las Vegas is more important than Thurmond, West Virginia they're idiots. The only reason the Cardinal was chosen instead of the Broadway Limited (or other trains) was because of Senator Byrd so I refer to the Cardinal as "Byrd Crap".
Last time I returned from Chicago, the Capitol Limited was about 3-4 hours late, I missed my connection to Philly and had to wait in a long line to change my ticket. I shouldn't have had to transfer or spend a ton of time on the Cardinal (I actually made it back before the Cardinal even with the delay). The Broadway Limited/Three Rivers should still be running today instead of Byrd Crap.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.