This probably won't get anywhere but who knows?
WI HSR
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm This probably won't get anywhere but who knows? WI HSR
They could easily cut the University Budget by 30% and consolidate or close campuses and afford something like that without a whole lot of new taxes but Wisconsin will never take that step because they have bought into the sales pitch that the current $5-6 Billion a year budget for UW is not enough. Which if you look at all the campus's and extensions they have.........they are blowing too much money as it is.
Illinois and Minnesota are going to pro-rate their contributions based on the HSR mileage in their state, so given that the majority of the miles are in Wisconsin. Wisconsin will be asked to foot at least 65% or more of the bill. Which would be another hard pill to swallow.
Schlimm agree . people do not realize how long it takes to build anything. We are not China. Infrastructure is not McDonalds' service. Students excited ? Even the slowest student will be out in 6 - 7 years.
blue streak 1Schlimm agree . people do not realize how long it takes to build anything. We are not China. Infrastructure is not McDonalds' service. Students excited ? Even the slowest student will be out in 6 - 7 years.
And of course there will not be any future students to replace todays students that will be gone in 6-7 years.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1 Schlimm agree . people do not realize how long it takes to build anything. We are not China. Infrastructure is not McDonalds' service. Students excited ? Even the slowest student will be out in 6 - 7 years.
I don't find the comment about students being excited so odd. Can't people be excited about something that will bring improvements to those that follow in their footsteps? Not everything has to bring $$ results this quarter. Some of us think a little further than that.
CJtrainguy I don't find the comment about students being excited so odd. Can't people be excited about something that will bring improvements to those that follow in their footsteps? Not everything has to bring $$ results this quarter. Some of us think a little further than that.
Some candidate for Governor proposes 200 mph service. I wonder if he has any idea what would be required to attain anything close to that -- I suspect he doesn't have a clue. However that really doesn't matter; he got his name in the papers. We shouldn't get very worked up about it.
blue streak 1 CJtrainguy I don't find the comment about students being excited so odd. Can't people be excited about something that will bring improvements to those that follow in their footsteps? Not everything has to bring $$ results this quarter. Some of us think a little further than that. May have not clarified post enough. Look at the Pols. They will say so what ? These students will be long gone and driving cars. Who cares about the high schoolers ? That problem is for the person who suceedes me.
And therein is the reason one starts rimming the drain! Kick the can down the road and figure it will be the next guy's (or gal's) problem.
The guy ran for Congress in California last year, lost to the incumbent in the primary.
http://www.bobharlow.net/
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2016/05/04/qa-with-bob-harlow-a-stanford-student-running-for-congress/
CJtrainguy blue streak 1 Schlimm agree . people do not realize how long it takes to build anything. We are not China. Infrastructure is not McDonalds' service. Students excited ? Even the slowest student will be out in 6 - 7 years. I don't find the comment about students being excited so odd. Can't people be excited about something that will bring improvements to those that follow in their footsteps? Not everything has to bring $$ results this quarter. Some of us think a little further than that.
Exactly. Too much short-term thinking, "taking care of #1" and failure to distinguish between expenses and investment, whether in a private company or government.
Dakguy201 Some candidate for Governor proposes 200 mph service. I wonder if he has any idea what would be required to attain anything close to that -- I suspect he doesn't have a clue. However that really doesn't matter; he got his name in the papers. We shouldn't get very worked up about it.
I totally agree, getting his publicity was the only thing driving the comments.
As someone that actually lived in the state and actually attempted to expand Passenger Rail beyond Milwaukee for over 12 years. It has nothing to do with a flash in the pan Democratic Party or Republican Party politician. THERE IS VERY LITTLE GRASS ROOTS SUPPORT FOR EXPANSION OF SERVICE BEYOND MILWAUKEE.
So read the bolded part over and over again if your a third party reader and like to twist these things into partisan shots. I fully understand why Democrats want to hold up this new candidate for office as an example of how the past Governor went wrong. The current Walker Administration made the BEST political choice period and I might add was supported in that decision by the majority of the electorate.
Now why did that happen? It wasn't because Governor Walker was a warlock and cast this evil spell on the populace and all that is needed is a Democrat to set it right........you can believe that as much as you do some of the other railfan fanatasies you guys love to beat to death.
The real bottom line issue from someone that knows the political landscape was there was no political support for trains beyond Chicago-Milwaukee. Walker took advantage of the lack of political support to pillage Doyle as any good politician would......not Walker's fault. Doyles fault for not building popular support for the idea in the first place. Even with Doyle running around like a fool pushing HSR, members of his own Democratic Party in Milwaukee County and elsewhere were looking at the funds and were devising ways to divert the HSR funds to highways. So it wasn't even a unified front within the Democratic Party for HSR.
The solution here is to get the Milwaukee coalition of support for Chicago to Milwaukee service which included significant members of the Business Community and convince them of the advantages of extending to Madison and then St. Paul. You will of course have to replicate and build a coalition in Madison as well as a few other online cities to get to the tipping support where such a project makes it past the 50% approval rating of the electorate. It is a lot of work but that work has to be done before you will ever see HSR across the state of Wisconsin. Unless of course you get a huge influx of Federal $$$ that pay for 80-90% of the project.........BTW, Governor Walker stated he would have approved the project if the Federal Fund terms were less onerous and covered more of the project funding (including cost overruns). Same deal with Governor Christie in NJ. He also stated he would approved of the underwater rail tunnels had the Federal financial offer been more enticing. So the Federal offer in both cases fell short as well.
CMStPnPsales pitch that the current $5-6 Billion a year budget for UW is not enough.
Gross inaccuracies. Most of the $2.9 bil. UWMadison is funded by student tuition and other fees (~ $ 996 mil.), gifts ($488 mil.), and fed aid ($822 mil.) Only $225 mil. is from general putpose state revenue. Yet Walker keeps cutting funding. Great higher ed programs are a long-term investment in economic growth, especially better jobs.
Walker's handling of the Talgo train was another fiasco. He gave back $810 mil. in federal funding because he felt WI could not afford $5 million in annual operating expenses. The federal grant would have covered much more of the cost of trackwork MKE-IL border, which WIDOT had to pay. Additionally the state was out $50 mil. to Talgo +a punitive settlement. And the economy lost the Talgo plant. Brilliant!!
schlimmGross inaccuracies. Most of the $2.9 bil. UWMadison is funded by student tuition and other fees (~ $ 996 mil.), gifts ($488 mil.), and fed aid ($822 mil.) Only $225 mil. is from general putpose state revenue. Yet Walker keeps cutting funding. Great higher ed programs are a long-term investment in economic growth, especially better jobs. Walker's handling of the Talgo train was another fiasco. He gave back $810 mil. in federal funding because he felt WI could not afford $5 million in annual operating expenses. The federal grant would have covered much more of the cost of trackwork MKE-IL border, which WIDOT had to pay. Additionally the state was out $50 mil. to Talgo +a punitive settlement. And the economy lost the Talgo plant. Brilliant!!
Gross misrepresentation of what I stated....
I used to live in the state and actually attended UW..........here was the document you were looking for and you want to focus in on that bottom line of $6 Billion for two years, so $3 Billion a year..........the rest of your figures I think are off.
https://www.wisconsin.edu/budget-planning/download/budget_documents/annual_budget_documents/2015-16-Annual-Budget-and-Fee-Schedule---Revised-July-8.pdf
Clearly I said UW and I think I mentioned campuses. So I was referring to the UW system (statewide) and yes it's budget is $5-6 Billion for two years. Didn't say the state paid for all of it.....you read into that. I stated the State could cut it's current contribution by 30% a year and pay for the HSR rail system over time easily. Now ask yourself, how much money is 30% of the states contribution in the above link........what percentage is that of $6 Billion. Very easy to do and I fully recognize it is a key Democratic Party constituency but the fact is, with the rest of the UW budget, close campuses that really are not contributing much to education in Wisconsin......probably would not miss the money.
Further the state is on a 2 year budget not a 1 year budget as the legislature does not budget year by year, it budgets for two years at a time. So I am not sure where exactly you got your state contribution from in the first paragraph but it reads rather low......pretty sure it is not correct......possibly needs to double or more for the 2 year plan.
So according to the above link it is $500+ million or over $ 1+ Billion every two years in state money for the UW system, probably more throwing in lost taxes for the property in use. Anyhoo, 30% cut to that would be $300 million every two years, more than enough to upgrade rail incrementally and develop a Milwaukee to Madison Corridor over time and cover operating expenses. Now add in some Federal money to that and you could do it sooner.
As for Governor Walker he made it quite clear he was concerned about the costs of the project (was facing a Deficit already) and what the feds were offering would not cover the costs of the project dragging Wisconsin in to either a Billion dollar deficit or several hundred million dollar deficit just within the first year or two of construction. He was right and I will tell you why. First the $810 million was for Chicago to Madison not Chicago-Milwaukee. 85 miles between Chicago and Milwaukee, bringing that up to HSR standards had been estimated to cost $1.5 to $2 billion alone in the past. I remember that figure because...wait for it......I used to live there and remember it being proposed at one point. Now look at the Mileage between Milwaukee and Madison and throw in new property acquisition in Madison for a major terminal as well as additional ROW......plus a route out of the city. Good luck buying all that for $810 million. I'm not that kind of financial miracle worker but perhaps they exist in Illinois.......oh wait, how much have you spent on the still unfinished Chicago to St Louis route so far? Didn't you recently have a record tax increase in the last year or two? Where did the tax increase go, funds wise?
Put all the politics on the shelf and without a funding source that pays for 80-90% of the project vs. 20-30% offered by Obama your not going to garner any political support for HSR across the state unless you build support politically for it across the state and the political support is not there today in either the Democratic or Republican party. It is completely missing in Minnesota as well.
BTW the Talgo plant was city owned, they just signed a lease and they were just assembling there not manufacturing anything. IMV, not a lot of skills lost in the projected but never attained 125 jobs.....it was a placebo offered by Talgo to make the costs paid by the taxpayer easier to swallow.
Official numbers for UW-Madison. The state portion at the other campuses is somewhat higher. The point is, you really do not know what you speak of in regard to universities. Living in WI does not make you an expert. Compare the WI economy with adjoining MN. Not even close.
Once again, those numbers are not for UW-Madison which is just one campus in the state, they are for the entire UW system which is a series of colleges and extensions throughtout the state. UW Milwaukee is as large if not larger than UW Madison your telling me that $3 Billion is for UW Madison annually? That would be another $3 Billion for Milwaukee.........whats left over for the other large campuses? It's silly. $3 Billion is for the UW system for one year. UW at one time had a reciprocation agreement with MN so that Wisconsin students could attend MN at same in state tuition rates, they can easily spread those agreements and close campuses in very close proximity to University of Minnesota, University of Iowa, etc. Thus saving money.....for just a start. Little impact on who gets educated in the state or University outreach, just avoiding wasteful duplication. UW-Madison is rated much higher acedemically than anything state run in MN or IL (both of which pour even more money to their state university systems with far less return on investment). All of that is beside the point though and way off on a political tangent which only relation to HSR was to provide a possible funding source by cutting the bloated University Budget.
Subject was High Speed Rail in Wisconsin which both IL and MN will stick with the bulk of the bill. Sorry to give you the bad news which I thought was common sense. HSR will go nowhere in Wisconsin without a budget source or without a strong coalition that is motivated to pay for it. Right now majority of folks in Milwaukee are German and Conservative. They are not going to blow money on Westward expansion of Passenger Rail unless they see a real advantage (1 large city down). Likewise with Madison, which would rather spend money on expanding social programs (2nd large city down). On top of that you have several bus companies that are making substantial amounts of money on the Watertown to Milwaukee Park & Ride lots (Wisconsin Coach Lines) and the Madison to Milwaukee passenger run (Wisconsin Coach, Badger Bus Lines, Greyhound). All of them will lobby against Westward expansion of HSR from Milwaukee and complained in the past when rail was temporarily expanded West of Milwaukee for freeway construction.
So bottom line, political argument here is irrelevant. You have to change the attitudes of the electorate which needs a convincing dollars and cents argument presented (ie strong Business Case) before they will vote for HSR and for taxpayer money to fund it. Until then, the subject will just be a political tag line to get people excited or to donate funds and then there will be no follow-up.
Also, BTW, Nobody in Wisconsin wants to follow the example set by Illinois at the state level with budgeting. Another reason they will demand a business case or a funding source for HSR first:
"Illinois is beyond broke. It is the first state in eight decades to go without an annual budget, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Its bond ratings, the lowest of any state, are near junk status. It is projected to have a budget deficit this fiscal year of $5.3 billion and owes vendors about $10.8 billion in unpaid bills."
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-illinois-madigan/
^^^ Illinois, signing up for HSR to St. Louis which is still unfinished and requires another Billion or Two of investment......doesn't seem like such a good idea in retrospect today.........does it? Exactly what Governor Walker warned about.......happened to Illinois.
CMStPnPOnce again, those numbers are not for UW-Madison which is just one campus in the state, they are for the entire UW system which is a series of colleges and extensions throughtout the state. UW Milwaukee is as large if not larger than UW Madison your telling me that $3 Billion is for UW Madison annually? That would be another $3 Billion for Milwaukee.........whats left over for the other large campuses? It's silly. $3 Billion is for the UW system for one year.
Again, you are ignorant of facts and either misrepresent what others say or have deficits in reading comprehension. I clearly stated the numbers I gave from the UW System Redbook were for Madison. The total 2015-16 budget for UW-Milwaukee is much smaller, $697,904,008. UW-Eau Claire's was $230,486,454. For the 13 UW Colleges (2-yr schools) the total was $144,198,128
You have never worked for a university (apparently you attended somewhere in the UW System, maybe one of the former WI state colleges?), so stop pretending your knowledge of working as an IBM contractor or owning a sandwich shop applies. Your ideological support for dismantling "The Wisconsin Idea" is appalling.
Yeah all that gave me a good chuckle but it does nothing to address the issue of the State funding for HSR. Wisconsin is not going to follow the example of Illinois. We like to keep our budget balanced.
CMStPnP Yeah all that gave me a good chuckle but it does nothing to address the issue of the State funding for HSR. Wisconsin is not going to follow the example of Illinois. We like to keep our budget balanced.
I have no illusions that WI would fund any HrSR or even an extra train to MSP, nor invest in a better future through higher ed. The walker budget was not balanced throughout becasue he prefers to spend on roads to subsidize the donor class.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.