http://www.journalgazette.net/news/local/Passenger-line-to-Chicago-closer-to-reality-16911046
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It sounds like an idea with some promise, but I will have to withhold judgment until I see more details and hear more about the reactions of other important players, perhaps most significantly Mr. Kasich, who has opposed passenger rail projects in the past.
The route evidently proposes to run over the old PRR manline to Lima, then the old Erie (now abandoned) from Lima to Kenton, then former NYC trackage from Kenton to Columbus. The new Administration has proposed new infrastructure investment, but has not explained how this would work. The PRR line would need partial reinstallation and extensive upgrading. The old Erie line would have to be re-laid, and a connection at Lima may be problematic. Maybe a portion of the DT&I is contemplated there. The new Administration might go for it if it involves private investment and a profit motive, but the finances might kill affordable service for the average citizen.
Tom
Any new route that needs extensive track rehabilitation in addition to support for operations losses is probably a dead duck.
I hate to see a capital city like Columbus (also Ohio's largest city) without any kind of service. But this is what we were facing 50 years ago, with or without Amtrak. Travelers have long ago made other arrangements.
Barring a real federal commitment to Amtrak -- which I would love, and be happy to support with my tax dollars -- I don't see anything changing. These "studies" are mainly good for the employment of consultants.
How much actual traffic is moving between Chicago and Columbus now? What sort of business linkages are there between Chicago and Columbus to be a source of sustained traffic?
I just don't see the level of traffic necessary to make such a line anywhere near financially viable. While I have driven on I70 through Columbus to Indy and then up I65/I94 to Chicago inroute to Elkhart Lake, Wi and while there is traffic - I don't know that there is sufficient volume to warrent having a direct rail link - on the surface.
If a High Speed rail operation could be developed with a airline distance of approximately 330 miles and a running time of 2.5 to 3 hours - it could become the first demonstration project for HSR.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
ACY It sounds like an idea with some promise, but I will have to withhold judgment until I see more details and hear more about the reactions of other important players, perhaps most significantly Mr. Kasich, who has opposed passenger rail projects in the past. The route evidently proposes to run over the old PRR manline to Lima, then the old Erie (now abandoned) from Lima to Kenton, then former NYC trackage from Kenton to Columbus. The new Administration has proposed new infrastructure investment, but has not explained how this would work. The PRR line would need partial reinstallation and extensive upgrading. The old Erie line would have to be re-laid, and a connection at Lima may be problematic. Maybe a portion of the DT&I is contemplated there. The new Administration might go for it if it involves private investment and a profit motive, but the finances might kill affordable service for the average citizen. Tom East of Lima they would probably stay on the ex-PRR to Dunkirk and then head south to Columbus via Kenton. However nothing will happen while Kasich is in charge.
East of Lima they would probably stay on the ex-PRR to Dunkirk and then head south to Columbus via Kenton. However nothing will happen while Kasich is in charge.
dakotafredAny new route that needs extensive track rehabilitation in addition to support for operations losses is probably a dead duck.
But if it is all-new top-down alignment, line and surface using one of the new "tracklaying trains" it might actually help to have no existing structure, just the ROW. That's especially true if they're shooting for 125+mph HSR.
Columbus is a major city. There are others en route. Perhaps the concept of economic development applies, stimulated by better infrastructure. "Build it and they will come?"
We are talking competitive transportation. Many people live along or near that RoW, unlike many of our western LD landcruisers, running through sparsely-populated spaces.
According to the last Wikipedia estimate, the city of Columbus has more people than Cleveland and Cincinnati combined. That's not counting the metro areas of course but still a very significant market without Amtrak service. Columbus is also the 15th largest city in the US and second only to Phoenix for largest city without Amtrak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio#Major_cities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
The newspaper article from Ft. Wayne talks about building a network. Based on the enormus assumption this ever gets built, from Columbus to where next? Pittsburg and points east come to mind.
Would a routing via Indianapolis be better? Of course, it might be longer.
Victrola1 The newspaper article from Ft. Wayne talks about building a network. Based on the enormus assumption this ever gets built, from Columbus to where next? Pittsburg and points east come to mind.
LOVE that idea! New Broadway Limited?
ACY Would a routing via Indianapolis be better? Of course, it might be longer. Tom
Flat-Lander Express?
Philly Amtrak Fan ACY Would a routing via Indianapolis be better? Of course, it might be longer. Tom We already have Chicago-Indy-Cincinnati already. I don't know how much you gain from Indy-Columbus alone.
The CHI-IND-CIN route with the Cardinal three days a week is a disgrace. Slow and with schedule times inconvenient for it as a corridor because the powers that be continue running it as an LD train to DC.
If this proposed train will cost Gov. Kasich or the State of Ohio one red cent, it's a dead duck.
And how much support will Gov. Kasich get from That Man in the White House?
Bottom line: Ain't gonna be any such train.
Oh stop your negative thinking I am tired of self hating pessimistic railfans
He's not being pessimistic just realistic. This an't gonna happen and all the wishing in the world ain't gonna make it happen. Now, if you happen to have a spare billion dollars hanging around that isn't doing aynthing and you want to donate it.
runnerdude48 He's not being pessimistic just realistic. This an't gonna happen and all the wishing in the world ain't gonna make it happen. Now, if you happen to have a spare billion dollars hanging around that isn't doing aynthing and you want to donate it.
A billion dollars is chump change in government and many corporate budgets. And it is an investment.
BaltACDHow much actual traffic is moving between Chicago and Columbus now? What sort of business linkages are there between Chicago and Columbus to be a source of sustained traffic?
A decent amount of freight traffic. Columbus is a big distribution center for clothing coming in from both coasts.
Columbus is kind of a bad place to terminate passenger service from Chicago. It's only about a million folk or so. Maybe it should push on to Cleveland and/or Pittsburgh. More "dots" of decent size.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
With all due respect, schlimm, $1b is not exactly chump change; it's a big part of the entire gov't subsidy to Amtrak each year. It ought to be lots more, of course.
Whatever the freight traffic to Columbus, the passenger traffic will be negligible. Unless this train runs just about hourly, are we to think that people who live in, say, Kenton will wait to take the once-daily train to Columbus, when they can drive there in 60 to 90 minutes and be at the exact address they want to be? For that matter, the list of proposed passenger stations on this route in Ohio includes exactly no big or even moderate sized cities (except Cow-lumbus, of course). dakotafred was correct when he said that stuies of this sort exist only to employ consultants.
Those who read the newspapers in Ohio know that for the past two weeks Gov. Kasich has been predicting a recession in Ohio for the coming year or two because the necessary tax revenue isn't coming in, due to his tax cuts, among other things. How on earth can any official or legislator in Ohio propose giving money (let along BIG money) to such a project which will serve a few rural county seats besides one city? If ANY money were to go to trains in Ohio it should be to the Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati corridor, not to the Flatlander Flyer.
Sorry to rain on your parade, C&O, but these are the realities. To think otherwise is just "cockeyed optimism" or "wishin' and hopin", as Dusty Springfield sang.
schlimm The CHI-IND-CIN route with the Cardinal three days a week is a disgrace. Slow and with schedule times inconvenient for it as a corridor because the powers that be continue running it as an LD train to DC.
oltmannd BaltACD How much actual traffic is moving between Chicago and Columbus now? What sort of business linkages are there between Chicago and Columbus to be a source of sustained traffic? A decent amount of freight traffic. Columbus is a big distribution center for clothing coming in from both coasts. Columbus is kind of a bad place to terminate passenger service from Chicago. It's only about a million folk or so. Maybe it should push on to Cleveland and/or Pittsburgh. More "dots" of decent size.
BaltACD How much actual traffic is moving between Chicago and Columbus now? What sort of business linkages are there between Chicago and Columbus to be a source of sustained traffic?
Factual updates
Columbus metro: 2,021,632
Cleveland metro: 2,077,240
Pittsburgh metro: 2,353,045
schlimm oltmannd BaltACD How much actual traffic is moving between Chicago and Columbus now? What sort of business linkages are there between Chicago and Columbus to be a source of sustained traffic? A decent amount of freight traffic. Columbus is a big distribution center for clothing coming in from both coasts. Columbus is kind of a bad place to terminate passenger service from Chicago. It's only about a million folk or so. Maybe it should push on to Cleveland and/or Pittsburgh. More "dots" of decent size. Factual updates Columbus metro: 2,021,632 Cleveland metro: 2,077,240 Pittsburgh metro: 2,353,045
Thanks. I was off by a factor of 2. Still, not a great end point city...
Probably Pittsburgh as an end point for eastbound and westbound corridors. At current speeds, NY-CHI only needs one through LD train.
schlimm Probably Pittsburgh as an end point for eastbound and westbound corridors. At current speeds, NY-CHI only needs one through LD train.
Don't tell us in Philly that. We'd like a train to Chicago too.
Philly Amtrak Fan schlimm Probably Pittsburgh as an end point for eastbound and westbound corridors. At current speeds, NY-CHI only needs one through LD train. Don't tell us in Philly that. We'd like a train to Chicago too.
The CHI-COL segment at top speed of 79 should be managed in 5 hours. The segments to PITT and PHIL could follow and would be a huge improvement over the crappy service Philly has now.
schlimmThe CHI-COL segment at top speed of 79 should be managed in 5 hours.
But if substantial parts of the route have been lifted and will be put back with TLMs, there's little additional cost in going to full 110mph alignment and line/surface, and with PTC I don't think the higher-speed signaling overlay would be that expensive. How far out of Chicago would you be on this route before you could practically take advantage of the higher speed?
Of course, 79mph or 110mph, part of the problem is going to be grade separation. Perhaps combined with wholesale crossing closures.
Be interesting to see if Ohio would cough up for the section east of Columbus to the PA state line, and what PA would fund (and perhaps run) on the section from Pittsburgh to Ohio.
I have to wonder if it would be practical to run a set of cars with onboard 'maintenance' APU west in a Pennsylvanian consist, and then switch them into whatever train went west from the 'break point', in order to get an approximation of through Philadelphia-to-Chicago service if Amtrak sees no need for the full "Broadway" route (either from Philadelphia or through to New York). This might be an Ed Ellis sort of 'value-added' project once the basic transportation in both segments is assured...
Might be interesting to see what the achievable timing might be with HSR via Columbus and then in the parts of the Keystone Corridor that have been redone (and of course in the NEC from Philadelphia through to New York), even if only 79mph is practical in some other segments. Justification for improving the 'rest' of the Keystone Corridor to actual high speed is much greater if there is a better use for that speed... perhaps there is a silver lining to all that abandonment of the Fort Wayne 'speedway'.
RMEBut if substantial parts of the route have been lifted and will be put back with TLMs, there's little additional cost in going to full 110mph alignment and line/surface, and with PTC I don't think the higher-speed signaling overlay would be that expensive. How far out of Chicago would you be on this route before you could practically take advantage of the higher speed? Of course, 79mph or 110mph, part of the problem is going to be grade separation. Perhaps combined with wholesale crossing closures.
110 mph would help. Not sure, but maybe west of Valpo?
RME schlimm The CHI-COL segment at top speed of 79 should be managed in 5 hours. Be interesting to see if Ohio would cough up for the section east of Columbus to the PA state line, and what PA would fund (and perhaps run) on the section from Pittsburgh to Ohio.
schlimm The CHI-COL segment at top speed of 79 should be managed in 5 hours.
Indeed. But the unwelcoming attitude of the current (and likely future) Ohio State government has already been brought up. Additionally, if you're proposing the use of the Panhandle east of Columbus, you'll have to consider the interests of G&W, plus the need to restore the abandoned Right of Way across a portion of another State: West Virginia. You're welcome to navigate those mine fields.
Realistically, the only practical way east from Columbus is northeast on the Tri-C corridor or (HIGHLY unlikely) south on NS or CSX to West Virginia points.
Don't expect to see this happening for many years, if ever.
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