BaltACDTotally different types of transactions. RBB supplies the train for movement. Railroads supply everything else that is necessary. Power, EOT, Crews etc. etc. etc. Railroads also assemble and disassemble the train at each show point and provide supervision of the railroad crews. I have no idea of the contracted amount that RBB pays. I do know that the base 'special train' fee is $25K plus $105/mile + additional charges for additional engine and any other 'accessories' that are necessary for the movement. I have no idea of what the insurance requirements are for RBB in the contract.
I would bet the Wisconsin Circus Train was even different from the RRB because it was a public / private operation and typically had C&NW business cars on the rear when it ran. Most of the time C&NW won the contract for that but there were a few times Milwaukee Road got the contract.
The Milwaukee being smarter at marketing always had a borrowed steam locomotive pulling it and figured out a way to get the steam powered callope to run (see the steam from wagon mid train). Which was really cool you had steam sounds at the front from the locomotive and circus music sounds via steam as mid-train approached (see video below).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KruGIOujEF4
I think the Wisconsin and Southern was the last to hold the contract and will have future contracts as they own most of the track now that is in decent shape to the Circus World Museum in Baraboo (ex-C&NW track).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrYJY1hLht4
Wow check this out, here is a special train movement on NS. Carnival Train? Never knew this even existed .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcGlUhmD2ss
Carnival train on CSX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQUaHueR86Y
CandOforprogress2 BaltACD CMStPnP Ringling Bros. contracts directly with the Class 1's for movement of their Red & Blue unit trains. Amtrak is not involved unless the trains operate on Amtrak owned trackage. I wonder what Ringling Barnum and Baily Pays the railroads for the Circus Trains? If they pay more then Amtrak then is that fair market price for a dedicated unit train with Passengers and Animals?
BaltACD CMStPnP Ringling Bros. contracts directly with the Class 1's for movement of their Red & Blue unit trains. Amtrak is not involved unless the trains operate on Amtrak owned trackage.
CMStPnP
Ringling Bros. contracts directly with the Class 1's for movement of their Red & Blue unit trains. Amtrak is not involved unless the trains operate on Amtrak owned trackage.
I wonder what Ringling Barnum and Baily Pays the railroads for the Circus Trains? If they pay more then Amtrak then is that fair market price for a dedicated unit train with Passengers and Animals?
Totally different types of transactions. RBB supplies the train for movement. Railroads supply everything else that is necessary. Power, EOT, Crews etc. etc. etc. Railroads also assemble and disassemble the train at each show point and provide supervision of the railroad crews.
I have no idea of the contracted amount that RBB pays. I do know that the base 'special train' fee is $25K plus $105/mile + additional charges for additional engine and any other 'accessories' that are necessary for the movement. I have no idea of what the insurance requirements are for RBB in the contract.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD CMStPnP I believe the same business relationship applies to the roving units of the Ringling Bros Circus Trains. Ringling Bros. contracts directly with the Class 1's for movement of their Red & Blue unit trains. Amtrak is not involved unless the trains operate on Amtrak owned trackage.
CMStPnP I believe the same business relationship applies to the roving units of the Ringling Bros Circus Trains.
BaltACDRingling Bros. contracts directly with the Class 1's for movement of their Red & Blue unit trains. Amtrak is not involved unless the trains operate on Amtrak owned trackage.
Yeah I know Amtrak is not involved in the Circus Trains. I should have said somewhat similar instead of same.
CMStPnPI believe the same business relationship applies to the roving units of the Ringling Bros Circus Trains.
I don't think it is forcing access as much as it is requesting access.
Amtrak can request access to run trains over previous frieght train routes and frequently does so with charters. It's why you see the AAPRCO charter trains on rare route mileage trips. They go through Amtrak to do that and Amtrak provides the motive power.
From what I understand about the Class I part of the agreement. As long as they are covered from a liability perspective and the train runs to their restrictions, they could care less if the train is carrying people, gold bricks, or aliens from another planet. So in almost all cases they grant access to Amtrak for the charter. The only DQ that I am aware of that might give the Class I pause in approving the charter would be either very bad track conditions or massive disruption to freight operations.
I believe the same business relationship applies to the roving units of the Ringling Bros Circus Trains.
Starting a regularly operating passenger train over a previous freight route is another story, I am only speaking about once in a while passenger train charters above.
Well I was reading a old statue but that was a 1970s law when Amtrak was created. seeing that Federal Surface Transportation Board cases can take years (A rail trail dispute over removal of a bridge in Wisconsin is over 5 years old) to complete just as well as Federal Court Cases.
"prescribe reasonable terms and compensation for using the facilities and providing the services."
This would appear to be the sticking point. Reasonable is a term that lawyers love. One can argue for years as to what is meant by reasonable.
Several persons associated with the freight carriers have argued that Amtrak only pays the freight carriers the marginal cost of hosting its (Amtrak's) trains. If this is true it makes the definition of reasonable even more problematic.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
49 U.S. Code § 24308 - Use of facilities and providing services to Amtrak
(a)General Authority.—
(1) Amtrak may make an agreement with a rail carrier or regional transportation authority to use facilities of, and have services provided by, the carrier or authority under terms on which the parties agree. The terms shall include a penalty for untimely performance.
(2)
(A) If the parties cannot agree and if the Surface Transportation Board finds it necessary to carry out this part, the Board shall—
(i) order that the facilities be made available and the services provided to Amtrak; and
(ii) prescribe reasonable terms and compensation for using the facilities and providing the services.
-----
STB's determinations detail the cost. There was no appeal to the STB in the Sunset case to my knowledge. It seems that working out the on-time metrics on the road have inflated the costs to meet the timeliness standards.
Numerically if Amtrak allowed departure times to float either positive or negative, with a requirement for intermediate passenger to be there by the earlier time, they could reduce the costs of improvements.
The degree of "timeliness" demanded is probably too much. If you think about it the penatly should be a polynomial curve to make more sense, with on-time within 25 minutes.
CandOforprogress2 That authority has been used only once in the case of Boston and Maine Guilford in Mass. Amtraks creation in law had the authority to force access when they need it. Why then do we read that Amtrak has to beg UP and CSX for access?
That authority has been used only once in the case of Boston and Maine Guilford in Mass. Amtraks creation in law had the authority to force access when they need it. Why then do we read that Amtrak has to beg UP and CSX for access?
What is the chapter and verse authority for saying that Amtrak can force a freight carrier to host one of its trains?
Several years ago Amtrak proposed running the Texas Eagle from Chicago to LAX as a daily train, with a daily connecting train from New Orleans to San Antonio.
The Union Pacific Railroad pushed back on the proposal, demanding that Amtrak pay millions to upgrade the railroad's right-of-way before it would host daily trains between New Orleans and LAX. The proposal was shelved.
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