Our advocates for changing / adding routes are forgetting one simple item. The exhorbant fees the freight RRs want to charge for any train or additional trains on a new or existing route. And there would be no credit for improvements that have been done for cancelled routes.
Until congress slaps the RRs on just not the wrist but on the head the situation is not going to change. Will that happen ? LOL.
The mail and express initiative in the early 1990's was a good idea on the face of it. Unfortunately, it covered its own costs but contributed little beyond that to the bottom line.
In my view, Amtrak gave up on express too early with LD trains. It should bring it back with limits to ensure it is profitable. Noticed Amtrak is finally embracing Private Car carriage with ads on it's timetables relating to such. Which is another step in the revenue enhancement direction.
schlimm Thank you for disposing of that mythological justification for Amtrak. I think it dates to Sen. Byrd's train to nowhere, but that was long ago and lives on only in the Cardinal.
Thank you for disposing of that mythological justification for Amtrak. I think it dates to Sen. Byrd's train to nowhere, but that was long ago and lives on only in the Cardinal.
CMStPnPIt doesn't work that way, you might dream it does but really doesn't. Congress is not paying for Amtrak to provide an essential transportation service, it is paying for Amtrak to make Passenger Trains more efficient requiring less subsidy. Each year that passes where the subsidy is ignored or gets worse while Amtrak ignores these issues will erode Congressional support vs building it. If you want to build Congressional support for Amtrak and see increases in funding year over year you need to demonstrate improvements in scheduling and efficiency, otherwise your adding to Congressional skepticism that Amtrak is an increasing money pit.
Thank you for disposing of that mythological justification for Amtrak. I think it dates to Sen. Byrd's train to nowhere, but that was long ago and lives on only in the Cardinal. Running trains for Boy Scouts or as graduation gifts are also non-starters.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
mvs Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service. When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate. There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak.
Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service.
When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate.
There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak.
It doesn't work that way, you might dream it does but really doesn't. Congress is not paying for Amtrak to provide an essential transportation service, it is paying for Amtrak to make Passenger Trains more efficient requiring less subsidy. Each year that passes where the subsidy is ignored or gets worse while Amtrak ignores these issues will erode Congressional support vs building it.
If you want to build Congressional support for Amtrak and see increases in funding year over year you need to demonstrate improvements in scheduling and efficiency, otherwise your adding to Congressional skepticism that Amtrak is an increasing money pit.
Watch C-SPAN and listen to what Congress asks of Amtrak. Never once have I heard a Congressman zeroing in on what essential service it provides to a small town because that is not even in Amtraks Mission statement. It maybe true that Boardman says that as part of his justification but it generally falls on deaf ears because Congress is well aware Amtrak passengers can be moved cheaper by Bus. Congress' intent all along with Amtrak from the very beginning was to preserve the Passenger Train as a leg of the larger transportation system at the least cost possible and preferably that it be profitable.
When Amtrak runs a Long Distance Passenger Train from point A to point B and generally takes the attitude that it does not care when it gets there or how much time it takes.......it both alienates and removes a segment of the market that is sensitive to that area. Market segment removed = Less passengers carried.
If you think it does not matter then stop Auto Train at 30-40 po dunk stations along it's route to Sanford, FL and see how many car toting passengers your left with on the train. After all, each one of those stations might have 1-2 people that want to ride the Auto-Train without the car.
dakotafred mvs Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service. When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate. There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak. Just right -- thank you!
Just right -- thank you!
Sure. Why not have those LD trains stop at every jerkwater town en route, even if only one person boards or alights? It might take 72+ hours to the coast, but who cares?
According to the Missouri Pacific timetable for April 1967, The Texas Eagle, #21 called at Mineola, TX at 6:55 a.m; #22 called there at 6:40 p.m.
In 1958 Mineola was a flag stop for the West Texas Eagle, which was operated by the Texas and Pacific, which in turn was controlled by the Missouri Pacific.
Number 1 called at Mineola at 6:10 a.m.; Number 2 could be flagged for a stop, although the time is not shown. It was due at Grand Saline, which is the stop just before Mineola, at 7:28 p.m. and at Gladewater, which is the next station after Mineola, at 8:17 p.m.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
daveklepper New Orleans fun-city. Ed Ellis is showing some ways to bring in more passengers and his lessons should be learned.
The Hoosier State Service (subsidized) seems successful; his CNO was not. The rest of the Pullman Rail Journeys are just excursions, not transportation.
daveklepperEd Ellis is showing some ways to bring in more passengers and his lessons should be learned.
He made the claim that with the Express Business he turned the 7-8 million a year Southwest Chief into a 51 million a year venture. Then commented Amtraks books were cooked............no further explanation. So the emotion expressed there has me curious what happened and it is too bad he doesn't elaborate more (confidentiality agreements?). Important parts of the story are missing in my view.
I like the Krebs (BNSF) analogy on Passenger trains. "Running Amtrak on Single Track with Freight is like running a Ferrarri behind a string of loaded dump trucks".
I am not completely on board (sorry for the pun) with the abandonment of LD trains. Agree it should not be provided or funded by the government but also feel the government should work to keep the niche open to private business.
Definitely think there is a proven niche for some type of LD train service. If that were not the case, there would not be a Rocky Mountineer nor would Ed Eillis be running LD charter trains. Also think the Alaska Railroad would end most of it's Passenger Service. So there is a niche for well run and well managed LD service, though I agree the government should not be subsidizing it. Just because Amtrak could not make a go of something and because the Private Railroads could not manage change with the loss of the Postal contracts......doesn't mean we close the door completely.
But with economies of scale, their losses will be reduced once major corridors are in place, and the take from the overall budget with be trivial compared to the overall budget. However, note my constant harping on the idea that LD losses have to be reduced with far more efficient, but still good quality, food service, better marketing where capacity exists, such as Atlanta and Birminghiam, lots of colleges and universities - New Orleans fun-city. Ed Ellis is showing some ways to bring in more passengers and his lessons should be learned.
Aain, is it possible that a temporary rerout put the Eagle through Troup? The second time I visited Tyler I rode the San Francisco Chief to Amarillo, and rented a car to drive south to Tyler, then returned the car north to Amarillo and rode the SF Chief back to Chicago. Enjoyed a full-length dome on the SF Chief if I remember correctly. Plus the usual excellent AT&SF food and service.
I think there is an Interstate north-south between Tyler and Amarillo. Is that correct? I think that is one reason I planned the trip the way I did.
daveklepperIn other cases, the Western Long distance trains, a holding operation preserving what is left meets specific needs and doesn't throw away support for the corridors. The needs again are tourism, handicapped wounded and elderly, and emergencies. But once the corredors are funded, bult, and in operation, these long distance trains would be a tiny fraction of the train-miles and passenger-miles.
Ideally, yes. But realistically, the LD trains are a money hole that cannot be sustained. They use up so much of Amtrak's operating budget and a lot of equipment capital funding, both of which should be used for HigherSR corridors, including new ones.
The L&A was acquired in 1939. I think he meant the train ran on the former L&A RoW.
By the tine I rode, I think the L&A was part of KCS.
daveklepper Is hope, Arkensas, where a KCS branch from Shreveport meets the MP main line, a branch that had mixed or passenger service at one time? Possibly that is why it stuck in my memory. At one time the Shreveport - St. Louis overnight sleeper ran that way? But when I rode the sleeper it went via Little Rock.
Is hope, Arkensas, where a KCS branch from Shreveport meets the MP main line, a branch that had mixed or passenger service at one time?
Possibly that is why it stuck in my memory. At one time the Shreveport - St. Louis overnight sleeper ran that way? But when I rode the sleeper it went via Little Rock.
Johnny
I agree with Schlimm that the future for huge expansion of passenger services is with corredors, but:
In certain cases corredors can and should be end-to-end combined to provide long-distance service as well. Best examples are Bangor, Maine - Atlanta and Florida, and New York - Chicago and St. Louis.
In other cases, the Western Long distance trains, a holding operation preserving what is left meets specific needs and doesn't throw away support for the corridors.
The needs again are tourism, handicapped wounded and elderly, and emergencies.
But once the corredors are funded, bult, and in operation, these long distance trains would be a tiny fraction of the train-miles and passenger-miles.
Are the railroad figures only passenger fatalities? Or did they lump in gradecrossing and tresspass stuff? Can you be sure?
Philly Amtrak Fan Why are people trying to convince people that flying is safer on trains ... on a message board about trains? This is a niche audience that Amtrak can use to build up its LD trains and you want to convince them not to take their trains?
Why are people trying to convince people that flying is safer on trains ... on a message board about trains? This is a niche audience that Amtrak can use to build up its LD trains and you want to convince them not to take their trains?
Because some of us prefer truth. And the future of passenger rail is corridors up to 500 miles with HSR.
Deggesty daveklepper Further correction, I believe the Texas Eagle ran non-stop through Mineola, and the station I actually did use for Tyler was Troop, TX. Does that check out? Is it an Amtrak stop today? Dave, Troup is on the former IGN, not the former T&P. I don't think that the Texas Eagle ever went though there. I do not have all of my old Amtrak timetables here, but Longview is now the stop for Tyler, and Mineola is a stop.
daveklepper Further correction, I believe the Texas Eagle ran non-stop through Mineola, and the station I actually did use for Tyler was Troop, TX. Does that check out? Is it an Amtrak stop today?
Further correction, I believe the Texas Eagle ran non-stop through Mineola, and the station I actually did use for Tyler was Troop, TX. Does that check out? Is it an Amtrak stop today?
Dave, Troup is on the former IGN, not the former T&P. I don't think that the Texas Eagle ever went though there. I do not have all of my old Amtrak timetables here, but Longview is now the stop for Tyler, and Mineola is a stop.
[/quote above]
Possibly an emergency rerout at the time I rode? Possible?
dakotafredRe: Schlimm on fear of flying, toward the top of this 2nd page (I forgot to hit the reply button): Fear of flying is not necessarily irrational. While statistically safer than driving, unlike in driving you relinquish 100 percent of control, vs. 50 percent behind the wheel. In a given situation, I'd rather have 50 percent of control.
According to a 2013 study by economist Ian Savage, trains are the second-safest mode of transportation in the U.S. Between 2000 and 2009, the number of deaths per billion passenger-miles caused by trains was 0.43. In comparison, the number of deaths caused by cars was 7.3 and the number of deaths caused by motorcycles was a disturbing 213. According to that same study, the number of deaths per billion passenger-miles caused by airplanes was 0.07. Trains are 6X as deadly.
CMStPnP n012944 I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts..... BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO. I don't care what you did or got away with.
n012944 I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts..... BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO.
I don't care what you did or got away with.
Sigh.....with a little bit of LOL as well.
An "expensive model collector"
dakotafredBusiness travel by rail will never happen again until restoration of overnight (preferably sleeper) service between major markets
It is happening on the NEC primarily because of frequency and multiple times of departure. Speed plays a role but as we see on Chicago to Milwaukee 70-80 mph trains can make it as well with enough frequency. It wasn't too long ago folks were saying Chicago to Milwaukee was too short a trip to ever make a profit.
n012944I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts..... BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO.
I don't care what you did or got away with. I was talking about Business Travelers in General that fly frequently. If you like Delta better, stay on Delta what do I care? People swear by Aeroflot and Ryanair as well. Delta's service sucks in and out of DFW.
Folks in the Pacific NW like the Talgo.......you'll never find me riding one of those either. Sorry I have higher standards.
CMStPnP Use of one way tickets are restricted under most Frequent Flyer rules. You'll find. If that was not the case you would find Business travelers using them to reverse the travel direction on seasonal routes that apply yield management for the cheaper fare..........so they have restrictions on the use of one way fares on most FF program rules (and the airlines have gotcha programs monitoring one way ticket usage) and most businessmen are not going to risk cancellation of FF membership to save money on airfare when the client is reimbursing in most cases. So you need to be real cautious with one way tickets and usage of them. If an airline sees a FF using a one way ticket........red flags go up.
Use of one way tickets are restricted under most Frequent Flyer rules. You'll find. If that was not the case you would find Business travelers using them to reverse the travel direction on seasonal routes that apply yield management for the cheaper fare..........so they have restrictions on the use of one way fares on most FF program rules (and the airlines have gotcha programs monitoring one way ticket usage) and most businessmen are not going to risk cancellation of FF membership to save money on airfare when the client is reimbursing in most cases. So you need to be real cautious with one way tickets and usage of them. If an airline sees a FF using a one way ticket........red flags go up.
I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts.....
BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO.
http://www.bustle.com/articles/83287-are-trains-safer-than-planes-statistics-are-clear-about-which-mode-of-transportation-is-safest
"But trains are still only the second-safest option, with the first-safest option being — you guess it — flying."
So if you are worried about "giving up 100 percent control", the logical choice would be flying.
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