Sunnyland that can be dangerous to get a train on the wrong track. And engineer is probably not familiar with it either. They need to work something out at that dispatch center, maybe hire more people to keep watch on the trains. But that costs more money and the freight railroads just tolerate Amtrak anyway, would rather it went away.
that can be dangerous to get a train on the wrong track. And engineer is probably not familiar with it either. They need to work something out at that dispatch center, maybe hire more people to keep watch on the trains. But that costs more money and the freight railroads just tolerate Amtrak anyway, would rather it went away.
Has nothing to do with the CSX Dispatch Center and everything to do with K Tower.
The other thing to remember, there is a 'war' between VRE & Amtrak - if you recall several years ago VRE put the operation of thier trains and the maintenance of their equipment up for bid. Amtrak had been doing this work from the inception of VRE, however, Amtrak was not the winning bidder and they still take the loss hard and will 'stick it to VRE' every chance they get. Not identifying 'the next' train is part of the ammunition in the 'war'. In the incident that started this thread, Amtrak (in the form of K Tower) stuck it to themselves by not identifying 175 as the next train when it was in the window of a VRE Fredericksburg train.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1 BaltACD K Tower is very lax on identifying what the next train out of Union Station will be in the afternoons. You get VRE's to Fredericksburg, VRE's to Manassas, Amtrak's to Richmond and Amtrak's to Manassas - If things are not On Time, the wrong train can be out of WUS at the scheduled time for the right train. Communications is vital and K Tower must be hounded. If the Dispatcher has issues on the sub division other than keeping track of K Tower - doo doo happens. This is why this poster puts Amtrak 90% in the wrong. For Amtrak K tower not to either have an automated hand off system to CSX or enough personnel to guarantee correct identification is no excuse. Now we may wonder if the same problem is from K tower to CSX lines for MARC ? This is nuts.
BaltACD K Tower is very lax on identifying what the next train out of Union Station will be in the afternoons. You get VRE's to Fredericksburg, VRE's to Manassas, Amtrak's to Richmond and Amtrak's to Manassas - If things are not On Time, the wrong train can be out of WUS at the scheduled time for the right train. Communications is vital and K Tower must be hounded. If the Dispatcher has issues on the sub division other than keeping track of K Tower - doo doo happens.
K Tower is very lax on identifying what the next train out of Union Station will be in the afternoons. You get VRE's to Fredericksburg, VRE's to Manassas, Amtrak's to Richmond and Amtrak's to Manassas - If things are not On Time, the wrong train can be out of WUS at the scheduled time for the right train.
Communications is vital and K Tower must be hounded. If the Dispatcher has issues on the sub division other than keeping track of K Tower - doo doo happens.
This is why this poster puts Amtrak 90% in the wrong. For Amtrak K tower not to either have an automated hand off system to CSX or enough personnel to guarantee correct identification is no excuse. Now we may wonder if the same problem is from K tower to CSX lines for MARC ? This is nuts.
There is one K Tower - they deal with the CSX BD Dispatcher for movements to the RF&P sub. They deal with the CSX BC Dispatcher for movement to the Capital and Metropolitan subs. K Tower is responsible for proper routing of trains to the Capital sub at F Tower and to the Metropolitan sub at QN Tower. All trains to the RF&P sub go through control point Virginia - those trains operating through Virginia may go to Fredericksburg/Richmond or to Manassas and other points on the NS. The only thing the BD Dispatcher needs to know about trains at Virginia is 'what's next'.
It happens in the air too. Delta put one down at Ellsworth AFB today, rather then its intended destination, Rapid City, SD 10 miles away. I'm sure that caused a heck of a security alert at the AFB.
Thanks, Balt. It seems to me to at the north end of the platforms.
I wnder: how many operators are on duty at one time during the day?
Johnny
K Tower is within the Union Station complex and controls all routes in, out and through Union Station.
Balt, where is K Tower?
As to an operator at AF, I should have remembered that the RF&P has had CTC for many years.
Excellent discussion - thoughtful questions by blue streak 1 (who is quite familiar to compare with Air Traffic Control procedures), and the very informed and comprehensive answers from BaltACD. This could be small (or larger) article in Trains all by itself. Much more interesting than some other threads . . .
Thanks, guys !
- Paul North.
blue streak 1This poster considers this problem 90% on Amtrak's dime.
How did you determine that?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Changing title. This poster considers this problem 90% on Amtrak's dime. Just another indication of lack of funds to have automated hand offs to CSX from K tower. Still routing indicators at AF might be a good idea as a back up.
This reminds me of the problems in the 1980s when air traffic hand offs between ATC centers got some real confusion and potential near misses. Then the FAA finally solved for the automated hand offs.
One has to wonder if the complicated mess in Chicago has the potential for the same kind of problems. What about LAX ? Or any of the othr Amtrak commuter locations such as SJC ?
blue streak 1 Balt:: Do the model boards at Union Station indicate what train is on what track as soon as they are placed ? Or can Amtrak even designate them ? There are several locations around the country that have or had some kind of destination sign ( MNRR ? ) such as in Europe. It would appear with the capabilities of AF to route many ways that maybe that would be a solution ? If would seem to have the possibility to get even more complicated once a full 4 tracks go thru Alexandria ? Too Many possibilities of what a diverging signal might mean ? As an exercise what are all the different signals a southbound train can receive when on each of the tracks ?
Balt:: Do the model boards at Union Station indicate what train is on what track as soon as they are placed ? Or can Amtrak even designate them ?
There are several locations around the country that have or had some kind of destination sign ( MNRR ? ) such as in Europe. It would appear with the capabilities of AF to route many ways that maybe that would be a solution ? If would seem to have the possibility to get even more complicated once a full 4 tracks go thru Alexandria ? Too Many possibilities of what a diverging signal might mean ?
As an exercise what are all the different signals a southbound train can receive when on each of the tracks ?
It's pretty pathetic that it's the 21st century and they can't even reliably assign trains to the correct routing. And compared to European stations such as Munich or Frankfurt or Asian such as Tokyo or Shanghai, the traffic flow at DC is low.
The problem is not at AF - it is departing Union Station at Control Point Virginia - if the right train ID gets associated with the right train everything will run as it should. If a Manassas bound train comes out in the time slot and gets associated with a Fredericksburg/Richmond bound train - and the mistake is not caught prior to accepting the signal at AF then bad results will follow.
I have no idea of what is shown at Union Station for the general public. The one thing to remember about Union Station and K Tower - EVERY AMTRAK train gets a engine change at Union Station - Electric to diesel or vice versa.
blue streak 1 Balt's Explanation is very revealing. This may be an indication of systemtinic shortcomings. First some questions need clarifying. Is the hand off from Amtrak to CSX an automatic digital signal or does it require a voice call ? As well is the northbound trains from CSX to Amtrak automatic or voice ? Voice hand offs always can be delayed due to work load. Is Amtrak and CSX's dispatching system set up to automatically hand of trains from one dispatcher to another. Can they automatically hand off to / from different dispatch centers ? These hand off problems are really in practice around Chicago. Anyone know how different roads do it in Chicago as there is probably more than one method.
Balt's Explanation is very revealing. This may be an indication of systemtinic shortcomings. First some questions need clarifying. Is the hand off from Amtrak to CSX an automatic digital signal or does it require a voice call ? As well is the northbound trains from CSX to Amtrak automatic or voice ? Voice hand offs always can be delayed due to work load.
Is Amtrak and CSX's dispatching system set up to automatically hand of trains from one dispatcher to another. Can they automatically hand off to / from different dispatch centers ?
These hand off problems are really in practice around Chicago. Anyone know how different roads do it in Chicago as there is probably more than one method.
K Tower lines signals for trains out of Union Station - except in rare instances, all trains deparing Union Station leave on the Southbound Passenger track - most Union Station departures are not announced it the departures are On Time.
Northbound arrivals to Union Station are announced by CSX and K Tower will specify the track the arrival is to be routed to - Northbound or Southbound. In the morning, VRE commuter trains, after announcing the 1st arrival of the day will ALL routinely be routed into Union Station on the Southbound. When an Amtrak arrives within the VRE times, it will be announced and more often than not directed in the Northbound by K Tower. In the morning there will be two VRE Southbond trips out of Union Station headed towards Manassas, these will normally depart Union Station on the Northbound track.
K Tower has model boards of CSX territory approacing Union Station, from the RF&P, Capital and Metropolitan subdivisions. CSX has NO model board indications of the workings at Union Station. CSX Dispatcher have model board indications for adjoining CSX territories, they DO NOT have model board indications for adjoining foreign line territories.
CSX and NS dispatchers wil have brief conversations concerning the Amtrak's that operate to and from Union Station, especially if they running off the advertised.
Deggesty Yes, it is a little more difficult for the operator to know where the approaching train is going. Back when you had RF&P, SOU, and C&O engines powering the passenger trains using the track, it was a bit easier to tell by looking at the engine.
Yes, it is a little more difficult for the operator to know where the approaching train is going. Back when you had RF&P, SOU, and C&O engines powering the passenger trains using the track, it was a bit easier to tell by looking at the engine.
RF&P Dispatcher in Richmond could not see the engines once the line was CTC'd.
blue streak 1 On a lighter note. CSX at Alexandria AF interlocking evidently routed Train 171 towards Richmond instead of Lynchburg. Link has passengers overly upset. BALT ? http://www.nbc29.com/story/32386065/passengers-upset-amtrak-took-wrong-route-to-charlottesville Wonder if engineer also operates to Richmond ? Maybe engineer could not stop short of AF when he saw the CP's routing to Richmond ?
On a lighter note. CSX at Alexandria AF interlocking evidently routed Train 171 towards Richmond instead of Lynchburg. Link has passengers overly upset. BALT ?
http://www.nbc29.com/story/32386065/passengers-upset-amtrak-took-wrong-route-to-charlottesville
Wonder if engineer also operates to Richmond ? Maybe engineer could not stop short of AF when he saw the CP's routing to Richmond ?
Normally trains can tell at AF interlocking their route by the signal displayed; however, the normal routing for VRE's to Fredericksburg is #3 track from Union Station to AF (L'Enfant station can only be serviced from #3 track) and #2 track from AF to Fredericksburg (most VRE stations can only be serviced from #2 track - in both directions). The normal route for trains to the NS at AF are routed to 'the Horn' or 'the Siding'; the signals displayed for all divirging routes Southbound at AF are the same, thus the head end crew must be a good point reader so as to minimize how far one goes on the wrong route; if the train actually 'ran' for 10 minutes on the wrong route that is on the Amtrak crew.
Had a similar experience back in the early 90's on the Montrealer coming South out of Montreal. Train started to to follw the Adriondak's route. Engineer caught the error and we stopped in the plant. Conductor went to the back, and we backed past the signal after getting clearance from dispatcher, the switch was relined and we resumed our trip. Lost about ten minutes. Didn't seem to upset anyone.
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