Trains.com

Now this is how you get a Amtrak LD Passenger Train out of LA and FAST!!!!

2631 views
11 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, April 28, 2016 10:16 AM

RME

 

 
CMStPnP
BaltACD

My take on that was that some of the ties are varying length for the switches and so they temporaily bypassed them, instead of mixing them.... until they get in the longer concrete switch ties?

Not sure.

 

It was my understanding that there were at least two reasons for maintaining conventional ties at these points.

First, the economics of concrete ties largely depend on getting a consistent 'unit' out of a mold, with standardized hardware that has a predictable geometry and 'automatable' installation and removal of attaching and anchoring hardware.  If you look at switch and crossover ties, each one is not only different but, in concrete, would have to be very precisely molded, or post-treated with grinding, epoxy, etc. for the necessary precision.  For wood ties, you'd just align the various components and spike them down.

Similarly, NVH and lateral shock reduction at these points can be important.  Concrete ties are not good in this respect, and neither are many of the 'tubular track' systems; even a little differential lateral motion or settling can put ties at risk of cracking right where gauge-holding integrity is most significant.

To the extent there may be 'more maintenance', it's essentially limited to a few hundred feet worth of track mileage, and I for one have never questioned that it makes sense.  Back in the day I was concerned with the idea that the track needed to be 'tuned' approaching and leaving the more compliant area, but Amtrak conducted research that said bridge approach tuning (which I consider more significant in a number of dynamic respects) is not really useful [except at very high speeds, where you'd be using ballasted-deck or top-down-monobloc-cast structure anyway].

I'm looking forward to hear from the experts on this.

 

Exactly. Some time back (two years ago?), I asked someone (Mudchicken?) about concrete switch ties, and the response was, more or less, the same: you have to have the ties molded specifically for each placement under a switch. Imagine the inventory necessary for such a practice.

Johnny

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:05 AM

CMStPnP
BaltACD

My take on that was that some of the ties are varying length for the switches and so they temporaily bypassed them, instead of mixing them.... until they get in the longer concrete switch ties?

Not sure.

It was my understanding that there were at least two reasons for maintaining conventional ties at these points.

First, the economics of concrete ties largely depend on getting a consistent 'unit' out of a mold, with standardized hardware that has a predictable geometry and 'automatable' installation and removal of attaching and anchoring hardware.  If you look at switch and crossover ties, each one is not only different but, in concrete, would have to be very precisely molded, or post-treated with grinding, epoxy, etc. for the necessary precision.  For wood ties, you'd just align the various components and spike them down.

Similarly, NVH and lateral shock reduction at these points can be important.  Concrete ties are not good in this respect, and neither are many of the 'tubular track' systems; even a little differential lateral motion or settling can put ties at risk of cracking right where gauge-holding integrity is most significant.

To the extent there may be 'more maintenance', it's essentially limited to a few hundred feet worth of track mileage, and I for one have never questioned that it makes sense.  Back in the day I was concerned with the idea that the track needed to be 'tuned' approaching and leaving the more compliant area, but Amtrak conducted research that said bridge approach tuning (which I consider more significant in a number of dynamic respects) is not really useful [except at very high speeds, where you'd be using ballasted-deck or top-down-monobloc-cast structure anyway].

I'm looking forward to hear from the experts on this.

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:52 PM

BaltACD
What I find interesting is that where concrete ties have been installed, all the switches and crossovers are wood ties.

My take on that was that some of the ties are varying length for the switches and so they temporaily bypassed them, instead of mixing them.... until they get in the longer concrete switch ties?

Not sure.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:41 AM

BaltACD

 

 
CMStPnP

 

What I find interesting is that where concrete ties have been installed, all the switches and crossovers are wood ties.

 

Yes. Just think of the variety of concrete ties necessary, with the variation in the placement of the openings for the devices that hold the rails to the ties, whereas with wood ties you simply drive the spikes wherever they are needed.

About two years ago, as I was going east, I noticed long sretches of concrete ties in Iowa--and new wood ties being put into place in Illinois (as I remember the states).

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:11 AM

CMStPnP

What I find interesting is that where concrete ties have been installed, all the switches and crossovers are wood ties.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 464 posts
Posted by Mario_v on Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:36 AM

Gramp

Nice to both!!!  Interesting that Paris has numerous other train movements while LA has one.

 

Gramp

Nice to both!!!  Interesting that Paris has numerous other train movements while LA has one.

 

In some cases Gare de L'Est has  more movemenets than some countries networks. In reality that is possiuble because there's a lot of main (I believe 9 in the first 8 kilometres) tracks (30 stub tracks, plus the passing tracks of Magenta subterranean station, used by RER services). Also having so many t main tracks - 4 for the main line, plues 5 for the RER and some commuter services -, makes possible some fierce railroad action. Typically the main tracks are used by TGV, 'Intercités' (intercity), regioal and T'Translien' outer suburban routes, with all other tracks available for RER and deadhead movements

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Texas
  • 1,552 posts
Posted by PJS1 on Friday, April 15, 2016 7:15 PM

Gramp

Nice to both!!!  Interesting that Paris has numerous other train movements while LA has one. 

On a typical weekday approximately 175 passenger trains depart or arrive at L A Union Station.  Included in the mix are six Amtrak long distance trains - when the Sunset Limited departs or arrives, 23 Pacific Surfliner trains, and 146 Metrolink trains.  

Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: San Francisco East Bay
  • 1,360 posts
Posted by MikeF90 on Friday, April 15, 2016 3:41 PM

CMStPnP
I am especially impressed with the new flyover the Chief is using over what I would guess are the Intermodal rails to the Pacific Port of Long Beach? Just guessing.

Yes, that is a new flyover built as part of the Alameda Corridor construction almost 20 years ago. Only freight traffic on it is BNSF running to their 'storage' yard just north of Amtrak's. SCRRA (Metrolink) owns and dispatches both banks of the river north of the AC (where UP and BNSF connect).

Another YouTube poster has made some great videos of SoCal passenger rail, including this one from LAUS to San Diego:

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,139 posts
Posted by Gramp on Friday, April 15, 2016 10:35 AM

Nice to both!!!  Interesting that Paris has numerous other train movements while LA has one.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 464 posts
Posted by Mario_v on Friday, April 15, 2016 9:42 AM

I would say that that is not bad at all for a US train, but still far from what we have here in Europe. Here's an example, with video of how fast trains acelerate away from terminals over here. In this particular example it's a regional train serving the region of Paris (maybe the english designation 'outer suburban' is the most adequate). After some  0,8 miles of track (precisely at kilometre 1,2, track speed rases from 18 Mph (30 kmhr) to 74,5 Mph ( 120 kmhr), and it only descends from that level in maybe one place (the train seen here uses the fast tracks and reaches a maximum speed of 100 Mph). Ah and it's a so called 'Bi-mode' (diesel and electric) railcar that swiches between modes at crca 87 Mph

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Friday, April 15, 2016 8:32 AM

I wonder what excuses and rationalizations are/will be given for why we cannot?  They are able to accelerate quickly in other counties on conventional trackage.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Now this is how you get a Amtrak LD Passenger Train out of LA and FAST!!!!
Posted by CMStPnP on Thursday, April 14, 2016 9:57 PM

I was impressed to watch this footage of the Southwest Chief leaving LA.     Note the fast exit from LA Union Station and the rapidly receeding skyline of LA in the first part of the video below.      This is how it should be in every major city of the United States for both LD rail and Cooridor rail trains.    I am especially impressed with the new flyover the Chief is using over what I would guess are the Intermodal rails to the Pacific Port of Long Beach?     Just guessing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb6ZrKhGY90

Cool Stuff!!!

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy