CMStPnPOh C'mon, here we go again........ a Mountain Bike is a "real" bike and folks that ride them are sometimes "real bicyclists". I let my Mountain Bike crash to the ground because the kick stand is really a joke on them (if they have one at all)........no issue because it is both engineered and built to take it. If something bends or breaks I can fix it.
Aw, c'mon, if someone took your multi-thousand-dollar mountain bike and threw it on its side in the mud on a rainy night, you'd probably say something.
And just because you 'can' bash technology around doesn't mean that you should. When I was little I was taught to have respect for my bicycle even if it wasn't damaged by being left out a couple of days in the rain, or left on its side. Even something as (relatively) cheap as my Fisher UAV is pretty bulletproof ... but I wipe it down, keep the derailleur adjusted and the chain clean and oiled, and carefully keep the bars aligned, rather than just leave the thing out in the weather 'because I can'.
I do have to wonder, though, if some parts of your mighty mountain bike can take out-of-plane stresses like rock hits to the derailleur, or stresses bending the cranks relative to the shaft. Those are the sort of things that I would be concerned about ... granted, perhaps needlessly in most cases ... with loose freight inside a baggage car.
And, of course, road bikes are MUCH more fragile in almost any kind of loading other than that imposed in riding, and even slight misalignment can result in expen$ive remediation.
Bikers in Germany use the self-service racks on all but ICE trains.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
WizlishI'm not altogether sure why we are having an argument about where the dividing line of a 'real' bike is. The issue is how a complex machine with many fragile parts in careful alignment is handled by Amtrak, and there are a couple of potential answers ... none of which is 'throw it in with the baggage and pick it out afterward' (any more than a 'real' cyclist would throw the bike down on the ground when not riding it)
Oh C'mon, here we go again........ a Mountain Bike is a "real" bike and folks that ride them are sometimes "real bicyclists". I let my Mountain Bike crash to the ground because the kick stand is really a joke on them (if they have one at all)........no issue because it is both engineered and built to take it. If something bends or breaks I can fix it. Now on a ordinary street bike they are built pretty well and can take some abuse as well.......however, the parts are a little less rugged expecially the cheap wheel rims they usually come with that need truing all the time. I upgraded my Mountain Bike with Titanium Rims.....been a while since I needed to true them even with rampant abuse AND I know if I hit someone, I'll be the one riding away on my bike.
I'm not altogether sure why we are having an argument about where the dividing line of a 'real' bike is. The issue is how a complex machine with many fragile parts in careful alignment is handled by Amtrak, and there are a couple of potential answers ... none of which is 'throw it in with the baggage and pick it out afterward' (any more than a 'real' cyclist would throw the bike down on the ground when not riding it)
My general understanding was that, if you were shipping a bike, you partially disassembled it and put it in a purpose-designed crate or box, with appropriate padding and dunnage. These are certainly bulky enough to run foul of "oversize baggage" restrictions, but have the advantage that the worst baggage-master/smasher abuses will not damage your precious lithium-aluminide cranks or whatever.
The alternative is to provide a rack in the baggage car ... and let the owner arrange how the bike will be secured there: light padding on the rails, secondary security against theft, remove the front wheel to save space, etc. I for one don't like others tinkering with my bicycle when I'm not watching -- surely it need not be a Homeland Security or insurance-loss-prevention issue to allow bike owners attended access to the baggage car rack to stow and retrieve their 'babies' if desired.
For the somewhat more trusting, there are commonsense procedures that a baggageperson can follow when stowing a bike on a rack, too -- my advice would be to have some kind of checklist tag that an owner could attach to a bike, stating preferences like 'remove the wheel', special instructions on the right way to release the brakes when removing that wheel, etc., and then provide instructions to the baggage folks on how to understand and execute what's called for on the tag.
Something I have not yet seen addressed, though, is that powered bikes are going to become a 'norm' for most ordinary transportation cycle use, quicker and sooner than we might expect. And that means that some very substantial lithium-containing battery packs will be cheek-by-jowl in areas of the baggage car, where careless damage or shorting might pose more than just a risk to one owner's battery ...
schlimm Paul Milenkovic I agree, Paul M.. The comment that true cyclists only ride bikes in the $5000-10,000 range is a put-down, whoever maintains that. And it is certainly elitist snobbery. The person who owns a Murray or Huffy bike should be able to feel confident his or her bike will be treated with the same degree of care by Amtrak as the person with the expensive bike.
Paul Milenkovic
I agree, Paul M.. The comment that true cyclists only ride bikes in the $5000-10,000 range is a put-down, whoever maintains that. And it is certainly elitist snobbery. The person who owns a Murray or Huffy bike should be able to feel confident his or her bike will be treated with the same degree of care by Amtrak as the person with the expensive bike.
That is the problem - they are! None!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul MilenkovicA person offers hair-trigger comments that reasonable people could take as glib put-downs without even knowing what they are talking about (a quick look at walmart.com shows that Murray bikes are more in the $100 range, not that there is anything wrong with someone riding a heavy, cheap bike and wanting to take care of it). And when "called out" for putting down a low-post-count commentator on this forum, there is an endless supply of justifications and excuses regarding expertise on the subject and that a putdown was never intended.
Paul MilenkovicBy any objective measure, the remark about "Murray bicycle" and "Walmart" was offered as a putdown that anyone transporting property they value at $1000 should expect any special consideration in Amtrak baggage handling. And the person with the $1000 bike wasn't complaining about Amtrak but rather praising the Amtrak practice that the bike owner had to muscle-up their bike to the baggage car door as something he preferred to the reform another commentator was suggesting.
I have no clue what a Murray brand bike is. I own a Trek street bike that cost near $1000, it was under $1000 but you surely know the average Trek is not just a few hundred bucks these days.
I bought a Specialized Rock Hopper Mountain Bike because I got so tired of having to be careful with the Trek on the roads, had to slow down for rough RR crossings, had to slow down for sidewalk transitions or sidewalk uphevals (common in TX because of the unstable soil), if I didn't slow down the wheels would need truing again. Rock Hopper is built like a Sherman Tank, no more slowing down for me!! I am just amazed at the absolute abuse the wheels take and think of the money and time I could have saved if I bought it to begin with.
The other advantage of course is when your driving a Sherman tank at speed on a bike path, the folks with the more fragile street bikes move over and make sure you have plenty of room to pass (heh-heh) vs making you wait until their liesurely hogging of a 15 foot wide bike path is over. Still ride the Rock Hopper.
And yes you should go into a bicycle shop for a maintenance clinic, they do have cleaners that would have cleaned your tandem up and they would have showed you how to tighten the chain and fix any derailuer damage.
The kid in me has a specific rule about how good a bicycle is.
To whit, how well does it stand up after you run it into a parked car, or a fire hydrant, or you wipe out doing "wheelies" over a hummock or coming down a hill too fast, or you crash into another kids bike if you're playing "chicken?"
Anything else is nonsense.
CMStPnP And BTW, it really depends on the bike type here. I have a $1700 Mountain Bike which I can pick up and throw across the room without the fear of damaging items on it. I also own a cheap street bike approx $1000 and I understand it is a little more susceptible to damage but I think I would trust it in someone elses hands. The super expensive race bikes being discussed, if you have the money for one of those, it's doubtful your going to be placing it on the train in the first place any more than you would mount it on a bike rack of a city bus.
And BTW, it really depends on the bike type here. I have a $1700 Mountain Bike which I can pick up and throw across the room without the fear of damaging items on it. I also own a cheap street bike approx $1000 and I understand it is a little more susceptible to damage but I think I would trust it in someone elses hands. The super expensive race bikes being discussed, if you have the money for one of those, it's doubtful your going to be placing it on the train in the first place any more than you would mount it on a bike rack of a city bus.
I was once a not-an-automobile-owning college student who used Amtrak to travel cross country to school with the bike that was my local mode of transportation. The bicycle was a Schwinn tandem, not a lightweight race-winning bike, maybe the SUV of bikes and like an SUV, it was often driven solo because friends rarely took me up for a ride, but something that cost me a non-trivial amount of money in relation to my finances back in those days. Maybe I thought I could carry a lot of groceries with a platform on the back seat, which I never got around to building. I would never win races with it, but as Air Force Colonel Cooper of "Aerobics" fame pointed out, you could get your exercise just as well from a heavy bike if not more than from a lighter bike. It had a wide-ratio 5-speeds that was an improvement over the 3-speed Sturmey Archer hub of my prior bike.
The cross-country baggage car ride as much as wrecked it. Whether through handling or the rough springing in the baggage car, at least one of the long chains had jumped off, suggesting that the sprockets, hub, or derailer had seen high forces for the chains to come off without anyone riding it and misshifting gears or anything.
I guess the bike rode OK after I put its drive train back together again, but it came out of the baggage car just thick with grime. I guess they never swept or vacuumed baggage cars on Amtrak in the early-to-mid 1970's. Owing to bikes getting a thin coating of chain oil everywhere, I never was able to quite get the bike clean again, and the lubed parts -- sprockets, chains, gear hub, derailer were forever after thick with grime. Maybe some bike enthusiasts could tell me how to clean chains with modern wonder products, but that bike was never the same afterwards.
One of my esteemed fellow regular participants was quick to offer words that a low-post-count-commentator being worried about proper handing of his $1000 ride on Amtrak was somewho in the league with somehow riding a brand with a reputation for cheap, heavy construction purchased at Walmart.
By any objective measure, the remark about "Murray bicycle" and "Walmart" was offered as a putdown that anyone transporting property they value at $1000 should expect any special consideration in Amtrak baggage handling. And the person with the $1000 bike wasn't complaining about Amtrak but rather praising the Amtrak practice that the bike owner had to muscle-up their bike to the baggage car door as something he preferred to the reform another commentator was suggesting.
A person offers hair-trigger comments that reasonable people could take as glib put-downs without even knowing what they are talking about (a quick look at walmart.com shows that Murray bikes are more in the $100 range, not that there is anything wrong with someone riding a heavy, cheap bike and wanting to take care of it). And when "called out" for putting down a low-post-count commentator on this forum, there is an endless supply of justifications and excuses regarding expertise on the subject and that a putdown was never intended.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
CMStPnPLeaves one with the impression that Amtrak is largely a political creation to keep railfans happy.
Oh Lord! If only that were true!
dakotafredHow do the airlines treat your bike? The "baggage smashers" on the railroad treated baggage with so much respect, it is almost comical in hindsight. I got chewed out by a train baggageman once for sliding a suitcase to the next pair of hands, despite the suitcase having studs on the bottom that precluded any damage. I looked it up in the rulebook, and he was right: No sliding of suitcases. The airlines, by contrast, treat baggage with contempt, always have. Misdirect 10 percent of it, permanently lose I forget how much. No claim checks, shoot it out on a carousel at destination for anyone to pick up. And talk about "smashers"! I question Amtrak's queer fixation with bikes, when so many bigger issues are taking the service down. Add Quote to your Post
I would agree. I think much of what is stated here is BS. Would like to see the damage claims of bicycles previously handled by Amtrak when they needed to be partially packaged in baggage cars to be shipped to support some of the "smasher" stories here. Have a hard time believing it since Amtrak baggage cars travel mostly empty.
It's kind of sad you can't have an intelligent conversation on Amtrak, typically the threads attract less than rational people whose views of passenger trains have not evolved since the 1950's........any talk of change or modernization is met with stories of doom or pending calamity. Leaves one with the impression that Amtrak is largely a political creation to keep railfans happy.
BaltACD Paul Milenkovic BaltACD schlimm BaltACD matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York. Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine. 'True cyclists' are not necessarily elitist snobs. Not elitest snobs - just people that want the best possible machienry available in the pursuit of their cycling interests - carbon fiber frames, titanium and magnesium metal work to save weight - if a $100 part will save 1/2 pound it is considered money well spent for the 50 to 100 miles or more that true cyclists put on their machines each week. Note, I am not a cyclist, just had a roommate that was one and had a up close look at the mentality. So your roommate with the $10,000 bicycle looks down at the guy with the $1000 bicycle? So somebody, say, who is a college student using a bicycle as their main mode of local transportation doesn't have "standing" to want to travel someplace by train (such as to return home during semester break) and have their bike transported with minimal wear-and-tear? Such a person doesn't get to express what standard of service would make Amtrak travel more useful to them? They don't look down on them - they just leave them behind in their rides. Heavy rides can't maintain the pace the light ride can. You run what you level of ride you want to afford. If you want to ride a Huffy from Wal-Mart, so be it. A Bugatti Veyron and a Yugo can both be driven on the same streets. Don't expect the performance of them to be equal and don't expect the 'respect' given to each of them to be equal.
Paul Milenkovic BaltACD schlimm BaltACD matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York. Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine. 'True cyclists' are not necessarily elitist snobs. Not elitest snobs - just people that want the best possible machienry available in the pursuit of their cycling interests - carbon fiber frames, titanium and magnesium metal work to save weight - if a $100 part will save 1/2 pound it is considered money well spent for the 50 to 100 miles or more that true cyclists put on their machines each week. Note, I am not a cyclist, just had a roommate that was one and had a up close look at the mentality. So your roommate with the $10,000 bicycle looks down at the guy with the $1000 bicycle? So somebody, say, who is a college student using a bicycle as their main mode of local transportation doesn't have "standing" to want to travel someplace by train (such as to return home during semester break) and have their bike transported with minimal wear-and-tear? Such a person doesn't get to express what standard of service would make Amtrak travel more useful to them?
BaltACD schlimm BaltACD matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York. Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine. 'True cyclists' are not necessarily elitist snobs. Not elitest snobs - just people that want the best possible machienry available in the pursuit of their cycling interests - carbon fiber frames, titanium and magnesium metal work to save weight - if a $100 part will save 1/2 pound it is considered money well spent for the 50 to 100 miles or more that true cyclists put on their machines each week. Note, I am not a cyclist, just had a roommate that was one and had a up close look at the mentality.
schlimm BaltACD matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York. Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine. 'True cyclists' are not necessarily elitist snobs.
matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York. Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine.
matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York.
I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York.
Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine.
'True cyclists' are not necessarily elitist snobs.
Not elitest snobs - just people that want the best possible machienry available in the pursuit of their cycling interests - carbon fiber frames, titanium and magnesium metal work to save weight - if a $100 part will save 1/2 pound it is considered money well spent for the 50 to 100 miles or more that true cyclists put on their machines each week.
Note, I am not a cyclist, just had a roommate that was one and had a up close look at the mentality.
So your roommate with the $10,000 bicycle looks down at the guy with the $1000 bicycle?
So somebody, say, who is a college student using a bicycle as their main mode of local transportation doesn't have "standing" to want to travel someplace by train (such as to return home during semester break) and have their bike transported with minimal wear-and-tear?
Such a person doesn't get to express what standard of service would make Amtrak travel more useful to them?
They don't look down on them - they just leave them behind in their rides. Heavy rides can't maintain the pace the light ride can. You run what you level of ride you want to afford. If you want to ride a Huffy from Wal-Mart, so be it.
A Bugatti Veyron and a Yugo can both be driven on the same streets. Don't expect the performance of them to be equal and don't expect the 'respect' given to each of them to be equal.
But the drivers of both the Bugatti and the Yugo have equal input in the condition of the road.
Isn't that what is being discussed here? Shouldn't the cyclist with the $100 bike have equal input with the one who has a $10,000 bike? Different concerns, perhaps, but equal input.
BaltACD matthewsaggie I have over $1,100 invested in my bike and No, I do not want some baggage handler in a station putting it up on a baggage wagon with the other bags and hauling it down to the train. Taking it down myself and handing it up to the person in the baggage car is exactly what I want. It's my understanding that Amtrak consulted with bike groups and that is what they wanted, too. I don't see this as being a problem anywhere except perhaps in the bowels on Penn Station New York. Only $1100 - true cyclists invest $5K-10K in their machines. The Huffy from Wal-mart is not a cyclist's machine.
matthewsaggie All the more reason to walk it down. They were not called "baggage smashers" for nothing.
All the more reason to walk it down. They were not called "baggage smashers" for nothing.
How do the airlines treat your bike?
The "baggage smashers" on the railroad treated baggage with so much respect, it is almost comical in hindsight. I got chewed out by a train baggageman once for sliding a suitcase to the next pair of hands, despite the suitcase having studs on the bottom that precluded any damage.
I looked it up in the rulebook, and he was right: No sliding of suitcases.
The airlines, by contrast, treat baggage with contempt, always have. Misdirect 10 percent of it, permanently lose I forget how much. No claim checks, shoot it out on a carousel at destination for anyone to pick up. And talk about "smashers"!
I question Amtrak's queer fixation with bikes, when so many bigger issues are taking the service down.
So the thresh hold for a "good bike" is $5000.00? By who standards? I wouldn't want my 200 k mart bike smashed and understand the bike groups concerns with out putting an imaginary price on peoples property.
So I read through the bike carrying policy and whay leaped off the page at me is that the passenger that wants to check the bike also has to carry it to the baggage car and lift it up to a specific level so that the person in the baggage car can grab it and secure it to the wall. Really? This part of baggage handling is self-service now? Amtrak LD trains are now no different than a City Bus?
Why can't Amtrak learn to palletize loads and come up with a ramp or lift mechanism for their baggage cars and baggage carts. In fact, at some stations Amtrak is still using the wooden baggage carts from the steam era. I noticed at other stations like Dallas they upgraded to a John Deere golf cart with trailer. Still though, how much extra money or time would it require Amtrak to attempt to innovate in this area just a little bit to enter the 21st Century and become faster and more efficient at handling both baggage and other head end items?
Congress had to force Amtrak to adopt ADA platforms. You would have thought someone at Amtrak would think...."hey maybe we should use this as an opportunity to also make baggage handling more efficient by comming up with a platform clearence standard" but it doesn't look like they have thought of that internally.
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