You are right on Room 1, but of course my example passed over the handicap and family rooms--with the potential capacity for 5 more fares. I also used a day that had low bracket roomette charges in effect--but with high bracket bedroom charges. Yield management makes this return calculation highly dynamic, but at the end of the day the sleeper is vastly more remunerative than the coach on a per car basis at all times with any kind of reasonable load.
Also Amtrak sleepers are much more commonly sold-out than coaches. It is uncommon for all 74 seats to be sold than for all 26 rooms in a Superliner sleeper.
Carl Fowler
What happend if the "Star"'s single cafe attendent becomes ill
or injured and there is no one to serve any food or beverages?
I bet Amtrak never thought of that. Boardman was a disaster!
Well I guess I need another long trip to Europe pretty soon to update myself. Was going to travel there this year but after the France terror attacks, thought I would give some time for the police to calm down a bit.
Anyways back to the topic. I am going to be curious to see how this experiment turns out. Most Long Distance Travelers in Sleeping Cars carry their own snacks (including me) because the selection on Amtrak is really limited plus it takes for freakin ever to get in and out of the dining car. I am the sort that wants to get in, eat my food and then leave. Not sit around for an hour and a half while the crew figures out who they serve next or who ordered what.
Vending machine cars I think are useless as was proven decades ago. Amtrak might have at least kept a snack car on this route for those that didn't bring snacks with them. I have to say though on a single overnight train where you might not eat more than two meals onboard.........does a Diner make sense money wise? To me you still have to have real decent patronage on the train for a Diner to even come close to meeting just it's costs. I am not sure the Silver Star carries that amount of passengers that travel end to end on the train and suspect it is much more likely that most Silver Star passengers are not on the train for the overnight but are on just for a few hours between boarding and departing at their destination. Just a hunch though.
I think at a minimum Amtrak should have a snack bar staffed either full time or part time with an attendent that does something else on the train. And it should be an attendent trained in efficiently handling clients not the typical, 1 client processed per 3-5 min rate. Has to be someone trained fast so that the revenue earned by the posistion at least covers a portion or most of the cost of the position. So maybe add another warming microwave or two........vs just one so that the snack bar attendent can handle multiple meals at a time instead of one at a time? I always get a chuckle out of watching that on LD trains. It's been going on for decades and nobody in Amtrak Management has spotted that they need another warming oven or microwave in the Snack Bar. Instead there is usually a line and apparently it is OK for passengers to wait 15 min after they arrive to place an order and then another 5-7 min to wait for their food to get warmed up. I always get the mental picture at that point of Mr. Boardman in front of that guy in Florida being blasted about food service not making any money and Mr. Boardman can't explain why.
CMStPnPWell I guess I need another long trip to Europe pretty soon to update myself. Was going to travel there this year but after the France terror attacks, thought I would give some time for the police to calm down a bit. Anyways back to the topic. I am going to be curious to see how this experiment turns out. Most Long Distance Travelers in Sleeping Cars carry their own snacks (including me) because the selection on Amtrak is really limited plus it takes for freakin ever to get in and out of the dining car. I am the sort that wants to get in, eat my food and then leave. Not sit around for an hour and a half while the crew figures out who they serve next or who ordered what. Vending machine cars I think are useless as was proven decades ago.
As Sly and the Family Stone sang, "Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks."
Each time I pack my grip to ride Amtrak my wife offers me snacks to take. I always politely refuse because, as I tell her, trains carry their own snacks if I want to buy any. So I don't think it's quite accurate to say "Most Long Distance Travelers in Sleeping Cars carry their own snacks." I generally don't.
On the issue of dining cars: I want a dining car. Eating in a real honest-to-God dining car is a large part of why I'm taking a LD train in the first place. I expect a cook, and I want him to make eggs at breakfast and steaks at dinner. I do not want microwaved anything, although I have lowered my expectations enough that I'll eat such a hamburger at lunch. I enjoy sitting for 90 minutes at a table with 3 strangers and learning what makes people from all over the USA and the world tick. And so help me, I'm willing to pay for the experience.
On my last trip to Europe in 2013 I was disappointed to find that in France and Germany, and on CNL from Berlin to Paris, there was no dining car at all; meals were served at my seat or in my room (no hot anything at b'fast). Only in Poland did I find a real dining car, and eating in that diner is one of my favorite moments from that trip to Europe.
I understand where the Congressman Mica types would take us. I deplore what's happened on trains to Florida and elsewhere. Each time I enter the dining car on the Lake Shore Limited I thank the Almighty that it's still possible. I believe dining cars are absolutely vital to the survival of LD trains and that the people who want them to be "cost effective" are simply finding a politically correct way to say that they wish to kill Amtrak as we know it. And why? To save a few bucks in the federal budget for an ideological reason. Certainly not to serve the public.
"WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT (regarding not reporting all revenue, i.e. commuter)"... In German in the link provided. Commuters can use the early morning portion of European overnight trains that haul sleepers, just in the coach section, just like in the US.
Here is the experience of a former railroad executive, we have been down this road before.
"This writer devoted much of his time in the years 1966-1970 to RF&P’s efforts to drastically rationalize rail passenger operations. We eliminated sleeping car lines, dining cars, combined trains, held locomotives in the stations rather than sending them to servicing facilities, did likewise for coaches and sleepers, declined to use the equipment washing facility at Washington Union Station, etc. Every move resulted in higher unit cost for that which was left, thereby reinforcing the drive to rid ourselves entirely of this expensive burden. Like every other passenger-carrying railroad, we ran up a very large “ICC Form A” passenger deficit. However, when the day came for the Amtrak take over, only one-half of that deficit was recognized, thereby acknowledging the fact that it was inflated by unavoidable costs."
I rode the overnight sleeper from Naples to Munich a number of years ago and at the first stop in Germany perhaps 50 folks boarded taking any remaining coach seats and filling unused spaces in sleeper compartments for the ride into Munich.
V.PayneV.Payne wrote the following post an hour ago: "WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT (regarding not reporting all revenue, i.e. commuter)"... In German in the link provided. Commuters can use the early morning portion of European overnight trains that haul sleepers, just in the coach section, just like in the US.
Where in the link (page), not what. I can read it myself.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Leaving our digression (mine very much included!) into sleeping car service, there is a very interesting article on pages 20-21 of the new issue of TRAINS on the topic of Amtrak's food-service experiments by Bob Johnston--which I strongly recommend.
This piece contains a fascinating oddity. Amtrak's route-performance monthly reports show a decline both in overall patronage and in revenue on the SILVER STAR throughout the "no diner" experiment, yet Mark Murphy, Amtrak's head of long-haul trains, is quoted as saying sleeper occupancy on 91/92 went "up 21-25% for three or four months" during the experiment. If this is true I think it suggests several things.
1. Passengers failed to notice the then tiny footnote about no diner at Amtrak.com, (it's bigger now) but were enticed by lower fares. Tom Hall, Amtrak Food/Beverage manager admits in the article that on-board surveys on 91/92 were negative regarding the cafe car offerings (and that they were slightly upgraded in October with better sandwiches and fresh salads--although still no hot entres).
2. Something is very wrong in Amtrak's reporting. If loadings and revenue on 91/92 were consistently down, what really happened? Did they actually piss off large numbers of coach passengers, or did "occupancy levels" in sleepers just mean the two Viewliners on 91/92 filled more consistently even as overall patronage declined?
3. Business on the SILVER METEOR continued to support three sleepers daily and the return per room on that train (#97/98) was up to $345 per room higher than in #91/92--far more than the value assigned by Amtrak to the "free meals" on 97/98.
What this really suggests is that Amtrak is floundering as it tries to comply with Boardman's catastrophic promise of no diner losses in 5 years.
The article also confirms other atrocious downgrades--no chef on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, (and apparently no lounge car service either), order from a window on the CAPITOL LIMITED (do you carry your own food to the table?) and some positive experiments in offering bargain entrees and at-seat (violuntary) services on the COAST STARLIGHT and the LAKESHORE LIMITED.
Again take the time to read this article. It's really interesting.
^^^ Amtrak is limited in it's experimentation due to lack of capital funds. They should have asked for more money to experiment when Congress was complaining about dining car losses but Boardman sat there like a dufuss and said almost nothing back to Rep Mica.
For example, personally I think Amtrak could subcontract with a local hotel eatery to produce boxed lunches for an overnight train. Would circumvent the high unit costs associated with their Commissaries, pretty sure the hotel would make train departure times from New York. Problem is that Amtrak lacks the Refrigerator Capacity onboard to make that experiment work and a good portion of the boxed lunches would probably spoil.
Then I thought about maybe getting them enroute around dinner time but then your going to run into trains being late, being able to distribute them all onboard the train within a reasonable timeframe of getting them. Might not be feasible there either.
Bottom line is I think serious testing of this go without the diner or just try a cafe car requires money to change the onboard equipment on Amtrak to be compatible with the experiment. As I mentioned in another thread if your going to support everyone on the train off a Cafe Car, you need to have more than one warming oven and the attendent behind the counter either needs an assistant or needs to be trained to really handle customers fast. And of course, better warm-up entre offerings.
I'm not really seeing that in the Amtrak tests. What I am seeing is trying to make do with whatever they have currently. Which is going to severely limit their ability to test realistic alternatives that might be cheaper than what they have now. Ultimately, I think they will fail in finding an alternative to the Dining Car that passengers accept openly.
BTW, most Corporate types know that when your being screamed at for a percieved failure........best time to propose a new solution or approach. Again, though........that opportunity was missed here with Rep Mica.
There is certainly Amtrak precedent for your boxed meal suggestion. That is exactly what is offered on the Portland section of the EMPIRE BUILDER for dinner eastbound on the first day and breakfast westbound on the last morning (the full diner runs to Seattle). I've had these meals more than once and for a one-time option they are (barely) passable. For three days they would be really not a good deal at all.
My sources in Amtrak suggest that from May 1 an enhanced pre-plated meal selection will be trialed on 91/92 as well--although much detail remains unknown--for example whether staff will be increased--and/or if a partially manned diner or second lounge/cafe will be added to increase seat space.
The CITY OF NEW ORLEANS is currently running with no chef. "Shore-side" pre-plated meals are being heated in a bank of convection ovens added on the upper level of a Superliner diner. See the Bob Johnston article sited above for a photo and some (not very good) feed-back on the results.
On the CITY at least the lounge car has gone unstaffed to let the diner have an extra server to try this system and evidently it's hard/nearly impossible for coach passengers to be accommodated for meals, in order for the crew to handle the limited"cooking" area now offered. Unstated is whether or not anyone can get a drink or a preprepared sandwich while meal service is underway--but if coach riders can't get to sit down for diner service due to lack of staff and if the lounge is unmanned, I doubt a drink is in sight either. Booze is a clear "profit" area for Amtrak food service, so this can hardly be helping to move towards "no diner losses in 5 years".
CMStPnP BTW, most Corporate types know that when your being screamed at for a percieved failure........best time to propose a new solution or approach. Again, though........that opportunity was missed here with Rep Mica.
Re: Rep. Mica - What kind of 'profit' does the Congressional food service return?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In regards to commuter use of DB single-night trains for early arrivals and the revenue accruement, this presentation is the source (page 6) noted from the Bundestag hearing mentioned earlier.
"1.4 Are all travelers counted as night train travelers on night trains.
Night trains are designed on some routes for travelers who do not ride overnight, but making a daytime commuters trip: Coach cars between Munich and Stuttgart (night train Munich-Amsterdam), Basel and Duisburg via Frankfurt Airport (night train Zurich-Amsterdam), Berlin and Erfurt and Frankfurt Basel (night train Berlin-Zurich), Prague and Erfurt (night train Prague-Zurich), Berlin and Prague (Night train Oberhausen-Prague), Hamburg and Nuremberg (ÖBB Night Train Hamburg-Wien) and Hamburg and Hannover (night train Hamburg-Munich) allow late returns home or early work arrivals in the morning at "impossible" times from Airports. These "commuter car" run However, under its own train number with the identification of an intercity: rather than CNL 40478 they stand as IC 60478, rather than CNL 487 they stand as IC 60487, etc. in the timetable and on the wagon level indicator.
Apparently, the passengers are not in this commuter car of the DB as Night train travelers considered and also fall in the economic calculation under the Table. The DB AG called to the press several times the number of 1.4 million Night train travelers in 2013. In this figure, the travelers are in the entrained "Commuter car" the Zugnummern IC 60xx is obviously not included, they are apparently considered intercity travelers and thus as travelers of daily traffic."
Much as it is here, overnight schedules have many uses at each end and the travelers might want some ammenities.
Railvt There is certainly Amtrak precedent for your boxed meal suggestion. That is exactly what is offered on the Portland section of the EMPIRE BUILDER for dinner eastbound on the first day and breakfast westbound on the last morning (the full diner runs to Seattle). I've had these meals more than once and for a one-time option they are (barely) passable. For three days they would be really not a good deal at all. My sources in Amtrak suggest that from May 1 an enhanced pre-plated meal selection will be trialed on 91/92 as well--although much detail remains unknown--for example whether staff will be increased--and/or if a partially manned diner or second lounge/cafe will be added to increase seat space. The CITY OF NEW ORLEANS is currently running with no chef. "Shore-side" pre-plated meals are being heated in a bank of convection ovens added on the upper level of a Superliner diner. See the Bob Johnston article sited above for a photo and some (not very good) feed-back on the results. On the CITY at least the lounge car has gone unstaffed to let the diner have an extra server to try this system and evidently it's hard/nearly impossible for coach passengers to be accommodated for meals, in order for the crew to handle the limited"cooking" area now offered. Unstated is whether or not anyone can get a drink or a preprepared sandwich while meal service is underway--but if coach riders can't get to sit down for diner service due to lack of staff and if the lounge is unmanned, I doubt a drink is in sight either. Booze is a clear "profit" area for Amtrak food service, so this can hardly be helping to move towards "no diner losses in 5 years". Carl Fowler
Sounds pretty bleak on the "City." If there's one time I want a drink, and no waiting around, it's during the cocktail hour. The wise traveler always brings his own for those emergencies.
On a given day I'm only middling smart, but one time I felt brilliant was out of Seattle on the Builder late one afternoon. No lounge on No. 8 yet -- the Portland section has it -- but they're supposed to sell drinks out of the dining car, following a loudspeaker announcement.
Good luck with that on this day. They had some problem up there, and the announcement didn't come and didn't come. Do I care? I'm in a roomette with my bottle, handy to the attendant's ice, the Sound out my window on one side and a full moon rearing up on the other (thru the open door of the unoccupied room opposite).
That's railroadin'!
V.PayneIn regards to commuter use of DB single-night trains for early arrivals and the revenue accruement, this presentation is the source (page 6) noted from the Bundestag hearing mentioned earlier.
Thank you. They are/were only on some of the CNL night train routes and clearly should not be counted as part of the long distance overnight riders, since they are only riding a short distance.
Indulge me in a repost from the parallel thread I posted about other possible SILVER STAR changes still pending. This addresses a sensible question/challenge from Sclimm on that string about Boardman's freedom of action/motives on the matter of the 91/92 "no diner" experiment.
It is absolutely true that John Mica and the other less outspoken members of the Republican caucus in the House Transportation Committees, have been after Amtrak for probably 20 years about dining car losses, but it was Boardman who concocted the "promise". While testifying in response to one of Mica's periodic "Soviet style railroad" and underpriced hamburger tirades, Boardman promised no losses in 5 years. Never before had Amtrak offered a date, because of course it knew there was none. This was a real leap from "we're really working on this and look--losses are down--both true".
His own staff was horrified, if my contacts inside Amtrak tell it right. Amtrak had faced this "no loss" mandate for years in footnotes to the annual appropriation, which the company had managed to skid by, mostly by trying to do their best to restrain costs without making the on-board experience too miserable. Losses were declining. They faced "guidance", not a mandate. But now it was to be statutory.
As I noted above Schlimm and I will differ on Boardman's motives. The best spin is he thought he bought time to try "experiments" like what's happening on 91/92 and the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS. Or he knew he'd be leaving far before the clock wound down--so someone else could face the consequences. I think he simply felt panic from one brow-beating too many and pronounced without thinking it through.
My problem is that he failed to tell Mica and company the truth, that diners and food service in general are essential to attract ridership--especially highly lucrative business like sleepers (see above). Their "losses" are more than compensated by the business they draw. NARP has a fascinating position paper on this posted at http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1036/whitepaper_food_06.pdf
It was Boardman's responsibility if needed to fall on his sword, rather than to promise something that is impossible and which he knew would devastate the marketability of his trains.
With the exception of the New Haven RR (thanks to commuter lounge cars) no Class One ever made a "profit" on diners. Even the NYNH&H did not break-even on real food service cars, but the bar revenue was for them the trick. In that they were unique. Interestingly the New Haven's outstanding diner department was immediately gutted by the PC upon the PC/NH merger, regardless of its purported profitability. The dreaded stand-up PC snack bars replaced most of the New Haven diners and grill cars, if a train retained anything--altough the commuter bar cars made it to 2014.
Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.
RailvtThey faced "guidance", not a mandate. But now it was to be statutory.
Another piece of inaccracy. It was not guidance or a mandate. It was always a Public Law (see my prior post), passed by Congress, signed into law by Reagan 30+ years ago. Avoiding compliance with federal law was something done by Boardman's predecessors as well as himself. Maybe the law was stupid or ill-advised. Fine. Then get it changed. You love to cite NARP as though it were an impartial source, when it is simply a lobbying organization that has to put out bulletins to keep the donations flowing, i.e., another special interest lobbyist.
The Amtrak initiated (as oppsed to Congressionally suggested, mandated, noted, goaled, etc.) "promise" to eliminate all foor service losses dates from a Boardman press release (and associated House Testimony) from October 3, 2013, which is thoughtfully still posted at https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/196/210/Amtrak-Commits-End-Food-Beverage-Losses-ATK-13-115.pdf
Thanks to forum member Wanswheel for first reposting this link on the parallel thread about other potential SILVER STAR changes!
Railvt The Amtrak initiated (as oppsed to Congressionally suggested, mandated, noted, goaled, etc.) "promise" to eliminate all foor service losses dates from a Boardman press release (and associated House Testimony) from October 3, 2013, which is thoughtfully still posted at https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/196/210/Amtrak-Commits-End-Food-Beverage-Losses-ATK-13-115.pdf Thanks to forum member Wanswheel for first reposting this link on the parallel thread about other potential SILVER STAR changes! Carl Fowler
A committment to belatedly take the law seriously and comply is more accurate. Of course Amtrak probably will not this time, either.
At least with your last sentence we agree. Amtrak will not because it can not unless it drops all diner service.
For those of you that follow the Amtrak performance reports the STAR had about as many sleper passengers for 1st Q 2015 compared to 2014. But a big BUT total passengers were down 14%. So would that imply a 20% drop in coach passengers ? Meteor stayed about same. If it does then the cost of dropping the diner needs to add in the lost revenue from fewer coach passengers ?
Count me out!
My wife and I used to take a Silver Star Roomette to and from Florida (NYP - TPA) a couple of times a year; but without a dining car we will probably just hop on Southwest and arrive on time in three hours nonstop. We hate flying; but we won't make long distance AMTRAK trips without a dining car.
Having been a passenger on Amtrak since the very first trains began running under there name and prior to that having traveled on some of the best RR operated passenger trains in the land. I for one would not ride any long distance train without a dining car. Dining cars have been offered on long distance trains long before Amtrak and meals were much better than they are on the current Amtrak trains. Maybe this politician from Florida who stirred up this mess in the first place should only be allowed to travel by bus back and forth to Washington. A 31 hour train without decent meal service is an insult to travelers. Somebody at Amtrak needs to wake up and get on the ball.
(error)
sno-cat Count me out! My wife and I used to take a Silver Star Roomette to and from Florida (NYP - TPA) a couple of times a year; but without a dining car we will probably just hop on Southwest and arrive on time in three hours nonstop. We hate flying; but we won't make long distance AMTRAK trips without a dining car.
That's exactly what Mica & Co. want.
Tom
For an overnight trip, if they did this on the Texas Eagle, it would not matter to me much because some trips I dodge the Dining car for the much faster service Snack Car. What the hay? The Hamburgers and Hot Dogs served in both are the exact same anyway. I only eat one meal on the Texas Eagle between Dallas and Chicago anyways............Dinner. I usually get a late lunch in Chicago and skip breakfest the next day. On a train I really do not know how anyone can eat three full meals a day in the dining car unless they have the metabolism of a 19 year old. I mean C'mon your just for the most part sitting there watching the scenery go buy and walking the train really isn't much exercise.
On my travels on the Rio Grande Zephyr, the Super Chief, the El Capitan, the City of Los Angeles, I usually had three meals a day in the dining car. This did hot always mean a three-course or four-course meal. But the pleasure of good food in a dining car with conversation with strangers that became new friends was one of the very enjoyable experiences of train travel. Rio Grande French toast at breakfast, a good salad and pie with icecream at lunch, and Rocky Mountain Trout at dinner, really great food, and never tired of it, probably repeated over twenty times..
daveklepper On my travels on the Rio Grande Zephyr, the Super Chief, the El Capitan, the City of Los Angeles, I usually had three meals a day in the dining car. This did hot always mean a three-course or four-course meal. But the pleasure of good food in a dining car with conversation with strangers that became new friends was one of the very enjoyable experiences of train travel. Rio Grande French toast at breakfast, a good salad and pie with icecream at lunch, and Rocky Mountain Trout at dinner, really great food, and never tired of it, probably repeated over twenty times..
One memory of the Rio Grande Zephyr was an Eastbound trip leaving Salt Lake City it was 6 or 7 a.m. and a large group that got on in Salt Lake City broke open their Thermos of pre-mixed Bloody Mary drinks in the Vista Dome car and passed them around. I could never start drinking that early..........then again, never lived in Salt Lake City, Utah.
CMStPnP daveklepper On my travels on the Rio Grande Zephyr, the Super Chief, the El Capitan, the City of Los Angeles, I usually had three meals a day in the dining car. This did hot always mean a three-course or four-course meal. But the pleasure of good food in a dining car with conversation with strangers that became new friends was one of the very enjoyable experiences of train travel. Rio Grande French toast at breakfast, a good salad and pie with icecream at lunch, and Rocky Mountain Trout at dinner, really great food, and never tired of it, probably repeated over twenty times.. One memory of the Rio Grande Zephyr was an Eastbound trip leaving Salt Lake City it was 6 or 7 a.m. and a large group that got on in Salt Lake City broke open their Thermos of pre-mixed Bloody Mary drinks in the Vista Dome car and passed them around. I could never start drinking that early..........then again, never lived in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Johnny
And on Amtrak's WB California Zepher, one of my trips had two ex Santa Fe El Cap cars added at Sparks and an additional Lounge car attendent for the upstairs bar area and for the next three hours, he was very busy serving the crowd that boarded at Reno for their return home.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.