CMStPnPPennsylvania Railroad circles around Chicago and enters Union Station from the North. Milwaukee Road never had tracks all the way to Union Station. I believe at tower A-20 in the diagram of the report above the Milwaukee Road merges with the former Pennsylvania Railroad ROW and enters Union Station via trackage rights on the ex-PRR. Thats why the ROW still has the ex-PRR position light signals beyond tower A-20.
I've never heard of anything like that, but I am no expert on the CMStP. PRR always entered CUS into the South Concourse.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmSounds like something out of the early 19th century. Can't they build a walkover bridge with escalators?
Yes it is pretty sad. I don't know how many drinks it took to get CP to agree to the current setup. But Northbound trains have to cross over onto the Southbound tracks to get to the long platform at General Mitchell International Airport and well it's not all that long either. Along the Northbound tracks they only have a crossover paved and it is only about 20 feet and only on the side of the tracks where passengers have to cross the Southbound tracks first.
So I am not sure why am guessing it is dispatchers perogative but some Northbound trains do not do the crossover to the Southbound tracks and instead discharge out of just two doors on that really narrow crossover part. In most cases they do the crossover though. CP stated to Amtrak it will not accept anymore train frequencies on the line until they fix this station to eliminate the need to cross over the tracks by trains and CP wants an elevated crossover for pedestrians as there is at the new Sturtevant station. CP says the current situation is massively disruptive to CP operations.
I guess they built the station on the cheap and didn't really complete the platforms to acceptable standards. Not sure why they rigged it up this way. I am surprised that CP agreed to it in the first place.
schlimmPRR?
Pennsylvania Railroad circles around Chicago and enters Union Station from the North. Milwaukee Road never had tracks all the way to Union Station. I believe at tower A-20 in the diagram of the report above the Milwaukee Road merges with the former Pennsylvania Railroad ROW and enters Union Station via trackage rights on the ex-PRR. Thats why the ROW still has the ex-PRR position light signals beyond tower A-20.
Believe it or not somewhat prior to the PRR arrangement. Milwaukee Road did not have tracks Milwaukee to Chicago and used one of the C&NW lines that was late 1800's though and I am not sure when they finally built Milwaukee to Chicago.
Would be curious to know what station the Milwaukee used initially in Chicago, was it Northwestern Depot?
CMStPnP bartman-tn I have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door. That is due to lack of a platform one one side of the tracks when they are stuck on the far track headed Northbound there is no platform so they pull up and only open doors to a 15 foot wide cross over.
bartman-tn I have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door.
That is due to lack of a platform one one side of the tracks when they are stuck on the far track headed Northbound there is no platform so they pull up and only open doors to a 15 foot wide cross over.
Sounds like something out of the early 19th century. Can't they build a walkover bridge with escalators?
CMStPnPAs I speculated earlier and it just speculation. Have my doubts METRA has updated the system that much from the Milwaukee Road or PRR years. Also, notice the old PRR signal lights, not standardized with the other METRA signal lights on other parallel tracks?
PRR?
bartman-tnI have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door.
bartman-tnThe track is bi-directional and I have been on an Amtrak train using almost every crossover to get around and through the peak commuter times.
Yeah no kidding the track is bidirectional. We are talking about signaling which impacts speed and the duration of travel in an opposing direction on the other track. You notice as you pass onto ex-PRR track the Amtrak Milwaukee or Chicago bound trains never cross over beyond the two tracks they are limited too.........that should tell you something right there about dispatching flexibility and track and/or signaling to support it. As I speculated earlier and it just speculation. Have my doubts METRA has updated the system that much from the Milwaukee Road or PRR years. Also, notice the old PRR signal lights, not standardized with the other METRA signal lights on other parallel tracks?
One other BIG difference between Metra and Amtrak in the Chicago area corridors is the knowledge and flexibility of the passengers. Metra trains can pull in and every passenger is already at a door ready to get off (or on). Their stops are often less than a minute for 50 to 100 passengers. This lets them catch up or stay on schedule. Amtrak, even the Milwaukee trains, often sees lots of luggage and slow boarding. I have seen stops exceeding 5 minutes at the Milwaukee airport while people get on and off with multiple bags. I have also seen only two doors opened and passengers have to walk the 6-car train to get to the door.
The track is bi-directional and I have been on an Amtrak train using almost every crossover to get around and through the peak commuter times.
I doubt if either is lying or manipulating. More to do with different defintions of on-time. Metra trains (which I often ride) are generally within a minute during rush hour, within 5 minutes in off-peak. Also, the distance of their runs is obviously shorter than Amtrak's, even CHI-MKE (89 miles). But Metra has run trains on-time, for the most part, for many years and the RTA and private lines before that. Amtrak is a dinosaur and must depend on the freight lines.
The BNSF line is bidirectional on all three tracks. I enjoyed watching the signals from a dome in April of 1971--and occasionally after that as long as Amtrak operated dome cars. It is still possible to watch them from the rear of a train.
Johnny
CMStPnP Electroliner 1935 The BNSF three track raceway into Chicago is a great place to watch trains and normally Amtrak has no problem but when the Eastbound #4 or $6 get into the rush hour, Ft Worth gets challenged. I have seen inbound Amtrak come into the Fairview plant on #2 track, passing an inbound scoot on #3 track with an outbound scoot on #1 track and an outbound express is coming on #2 track. Delayed the inbound scoot about 2 min. I found the idea of two trains heading toward each other at 70 mph on track 2 was dicey but everyone was alert, followed the signals, and got where they needed to go. Score one for the Dispatcher. Though I have had days where I saw PPD (piss poor Dispatching) but thats another story. Yeah I have ridden BNSF to the end of the METRA territory. Better operation but also their signaling is newer and probably bidirectional as well as integrated into that third track. Making for more flexible dispatching.
Electroliner 1935 The BNSF three track raceway into Chicago is a great place to watch trains and normally Amtrak has no problem but when the Eastbound #4 or $6 get into the rush hour, Ft Worth gets challenged. I have seen inbound Amtrak come into the Fairview plant on #2 track, passing an inbound scoot on #3 track with an outbound scoot on #1 track and an outbound express is coming on #2 track. Delayed the inbound scoot about 2 min. I found the idea of two trains heading toward each other at 70 mph on track 2 was dicey but everyone was alert, followed the signals, and got where they needed to go. Score one for the Dispatcher. Though I have had days where I saw PPD (piss poor Dispatching) but thats another story.
The BNSF three track raceway into Chicago is a great place to watch trains and normally Amtrak has no problem but when the Eastbound #4 or $6 get into the rush hour, Ft Worth gets challenged. I have seen inbound Amtrak come into the Fairview plant on #2 track, passing an inbound scoot on #3 track with an outbound scoot on #1 track and an outbound express is coming on #2 track. Delayed the inbound scoot about 2 min. I found the idea of two trains heading toward each other at 70 mph on track 2 was dicey but everyone was alert, followed the signals, and got where they needed to go. Score one for the Dispatcher. Though I have had days where I saw PPD (piss poor Dispatching) but thats another story.
Yeah I have ridden BNSF to the end of the METRA territory. Better operation but also their signaling is newer and probably bidirectional as well as integrated into that third track. Making for more flexible dispatching.
I am almost 100% sure that the MILW North line is signaled bidirectional as well. If it is not, it makes even more important for Amtrak to hit its windows as it would be running slower under block protection if forced to run "wrong main."
An "expensive model collector"
Also, not buying it that Amtrak is "lying". Far more likely METRA is manipulating if anyone, far larger and more bereaucratic than Amtrak for starters. Additionally, you have the FRA and both DOT's involved in this corridor that would call Amtrak out if it was being dishonest.
n012944 CMStPnP n012944 CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on. Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it. If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't. No it will not. CMStPnP I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move). A couple of posts up you also belived that Metra's dispatching system was somewhat at fault. An upgrade to the system was never mentioned in the report that you linked, and the system seems to do a fantasic job at keeping Metra on time. Kind of kills what you believe.... Amtrak's delay reporting is a little bit suspect. While I won't get into my experiances with Amtrak lying about delays, lets look at their definition for train interference. Train Interference Delays: All delays related to other train movements in the area. Primary causes of these types of delays are freight trains but also can include commuter trains and other Amtrak passenger trains. This category also includes delays due to switching to alternate tracks or routes to operate around other trains. I have put in bold the important part here. Lets say that Amtrak shows up late and Metra leaves on time. Instead of letting Amtrak follow the Metra train, the dispatcher gets Amtrak around the Metra while it is stopped at a station. Doing so requires Amtrak to go through 2 crossovers, which is not a move done at track speed, slowing down and delaying Amtrak. Under Amtraks delay reporting, Metra would still get hit with the delay, even though they gave the Amtrak train priority.
CMStPnP n012944 CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on. Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it. If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't.
n012944 CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on. Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it.
CMStPnP So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on.
So perhaps a "on-time" Metra train is still a train that Amtrak needs to wait on.
Amtrak has windows to run on the line. When Amtrak misses its window, Metra will not delay its trains for a late Amtrak, nor should it.
If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't.
No it will not.
CMStPnP I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move).
I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move).
A couple of posts up you also belived that Metra's dispatching system was somewhat at fault. An upgrade to the system was never mentioned in the report that you linked, and the system seems to do a fantasic job at keeping Metra on time. Kind of kills what you believe....
Amtrak's delay reporting is a little bit suspect. While I won't get into my experiances with Amtrak lying about delays, lets look at their definition for train interference.
I have put in bold the important part here. Lets say that Amtrak shows up late and Metra leaves on time. Instead of letting Amtrak follow the Metra train, the dispatcher gets Amtrak around the Metra while it is stopped at a station. Doing so requires Amtrak to go through 2 crossovers, which is not a move done at track speed, slowing down and delaying Amtrak. Under Amtraks delay reporting, Metra would still get hit with the delay, even though they gave the Amtrak train priority.
+!
Metra's reporting standards are far more trustworthy and common sense. A 20 point difference in on-time is enormous.
If it were an issue with "windows" Amtrak would report the train late on either the Amtrak or CP portion..............yet it doesn't. I tend to believe the second report, METRA operating on track without adequate capacity to handle Amtrak trains and as the owner of the track, doing whatever it feels like to keep it's own trains on time to the detriment of all tenant carriers (such as tying up the mainline at DEERFIELD for a reverse move).
In such a case, laying a dedicated Amtrak track on the ROW through METRA territory would eliminate almost all the METRA delays.
One difference between the old days and now is that Amtrak's schedule is more loose, while Metra and other commuter lines run on pretty tight schedules. The impact is seen more on long distance trains than on corridor trains, such as the Hiawatha service.
Ha! It is METRA, this explains some of the issues in more detail with METRA not being able to handle the current set of Amtrak trains on time. This is interesting the study dates are so recent. Means WisDOT is still actively persuing an upgrade to 90 mph service and increase in frequencies to 10.
Also, don't laugh at the historical dates, she is a consultant. The corridor is over 90 years old and the Milwaukee Road changed it's name from Milwaukee and Waukesha I believe BEFORE 1928. Anyways, interesting reading detailing where they need to do more track improvements before adding trains. Now what I heard the next train frequency is only being held up by Adding a platform to the Milwaukee Airport station. CP made that an absolute need for the next train frequency. For frequencies above the next train they would need to add track to Deerfield, IL for METRA to turn it's trains off the mainline and probably at tower A-20.
Here is the report, it downloads to your PC:
https://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/15352
Well Amtrak is still pointing the finger primarily at METRA for the delays.
www.amtrak.com/hiawatha-train%26mode=perf%26overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageVerticalRouteOverview
CMStPnP schlimm The line in question is ex-MILW. It had freight and passenger. 7 trains each way in 1968, some in 1:25. The CNW in 1958 had 14 each way, with the quickest 1:21. 4. METRA running more frequencies, in fact Amtrak points the finger of the most delays being due to METRA. It is either their dispatching system or they need to lay another track. If you ask METRA they will say they need another track in METRA territory but I suspect their train tracking and dispatching system is really old as well.
schlimm The line in question is ex-MILW. It had freight and passenger. 7 trains each way in 1968, some in 1:25. The CNW in 1958 had 14 each way, with the quickest 1:21.
The line in question is ex-MILW. It had freight and passenger. 7 trains each way in 1968, some in 1:25. The CNW in 1958 had 14 each way, with the quickest 1:21.
4. METRA running more frequencies, in fact Amtrak points the finger of the most delays being due to METRA. It is either their dispatching system or they need to lay another track. If you ask METRA they will say they need another track in METRA territory but I suspect their train tracking and dispatching system is really old as well.
As pointed out by Schlimm, Metra's "old" dispatching system seems to pump out some pretty nice on time numbers for their trains. There is nothing wrong with it. Many times when Amtrak is running late and misses its window, it will have to follow an on time Metra. Amtrak then gets delayed as it has to stop every time Metra stops, which is not built into Amtrak's schedule.
cx500 To keep timekeeping reliable there must be some padding in the schedules to enable those minutes that will inevitably be lost. In the old days the engine crews knew where they could safely gain some time by going a little bit faster than the official timetable permitted. The practice was known and winked at. Now event recorders are unforgiving witnesses and those minutes cannot be regained. Slowing the overall schedule is the only way to absorb the occasional hiccups.
To keep timekeeping reliable there must be some padding in the schedules to enable those minutes that will inevitably be lost. In the old days the engine crews knew where they could safely gain some time by going a little bit faster than the official timetable permitted. The practice was known and winked at. Now event recorders are unforgiving witnesses and those minutes cannot be regained. Slowing the overall schedule is the only way to absorb the occasional hiccups.
Which brings up another point. The Amtrak Locomotives have preset Governors in them so the Engineer no longer has the descretion to cheat a little on speed, fastest they can go is I believe 82 mph before the governor halts the increase in speed. Anything above 79 mph sets off an alarm every so often but I think the governor allows 2-3 mph above that speed.
Metra's report for November. Pretty good numbers on MILW-N, 97% on time vs Amtrak only 74.8%.
https://metrarail.com/content/dam/metra/documents/On_Time_Performance/OTPreport2015M11.pdf
And remember, Metra has to share with UP-West and BNSF two of the busiest RoW's in the country.
Page E-16 of November Amtrak performance reports shows METRA having 3 times as many delays per 10,000 miles than CP.
https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241245669222
2. A stop at Mitchell, true.
3. Metra? Someone could check, but I doubt if there are substantially more Metra trains on that line now vs in CMStP days.
Yeah I thought some of the MILW trains did the route in 85 min for avg speed of 60 mph. Here is the deal though...
1. More Federal Regulations on track speed.
2. Additional Stop at Mitchell Field Airport.
3. Soo / CP has since ripped out some track needed.
4. METRA running more frequencies, in fact Amtrak points the finger of the most delays being due to METRA. It is either their dispatching system or they need to lay another track. If you ask METRA they will say they need another track in METRA territory but I suspect their train tracking and dispatching system is really old as well. Second biggest cause for delays is CP but CP is down quite a bit in percentage from METRA.
C&NW passenger service prior to 1971 had little to no frieght service to contend with on the Chicago-Milwaukee line. Freight service operated out of Proviso on the New Line.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.