oltmannd dakotafred Even if Amtrak won a fight over the right to haul express, it wouldn't be worth the candle. The freight railroads would find ways to punish, per Victrola1. If it was limited to the NEC plus some extensions, I highly doubt CSX or NS would object and certainly wouldn't punish. Neither has any interest in business in those lanes.
dakotafred Even if Amtrak won a fight over the right to haul express, it wouldn't be worth the candle. The freight railroads would find ways to punish, per Victrola1.
Even if Amtrak won a fight over the right to haul express, it wouldn't be worth the candle. The freight railroads would find ways to punish, per Victrola1.
If it was limited to the NEC plus some extensions, I highly doubt CSX or NS would object and certainly wouldn't punish. Neither has any interest in business in those lanes.
But, given that restriction, express would be worth how much money to Amtrak?
I'd rather Amtrak got those new sleepers and diners out on the line, where some good could be done for its core business. In the best scenario, express isn't going to move Amtrak into the black and satisfy its regular congressional critics. So who cares about it?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
daveklepper Loading and unloading could be done at Sunnyside for packages south from NYCity. Possibly also Ivy City at Washington.
Loading and unloading could be done at Sunnyside for packages south from NYCity. Possibly also Ivy City at Washington.
I was figuring on some containers on a baggage car or two on the headend of the regionals. Are you suggesting an additional stop at Sunnyside to handle the container swapping or separate trains just for parcels?
Dutchrailnut ownership has little to do with it, a freight carrier who owns overhead rights can sue Amtrak or MN for letting Amtrak handle freight. Besides all facilities to handle mail(or headend packages) have been removed or allocated for other use.
ownership has little to do with it, a freight carrier who owns overhead rights can sue Amtrak or MN for letting Amtrak handle freight.
Besides all facilities to handle mail(or headend packages) have been removed or allocated for other use.
I've been in the Business world all my life and serveral times supporting Senior Executives of various industries. I can't see any court in the United States taking such a civil lawsuit as the analogy would be roughly McDonalds suing a Neighborhood kid for setting up a lemonaide stand. There is just not enough Amtrak carrying capacity nor enough Amtrak frequency for this to be even remotely injurious financially to Class One railroads and in my opinion they have better ways to occupy their legal department. At the most we are talking one maybe two semi-trailers of LCL per Amtrak train and that would be if Amtrak were very fortunate to capture that much traffic.
Also, to answer earlier questions, no this proposal would not include extra express haulage equipment nor would it include special trains just to carry express. I was only proposing using existing baggage car capacity on existing scheduled passenger trains for additional revenue. Trains would appear sold out once the capacity was used, they would not add extra baggage or express cars.
What I had envisioned in the larger big city passenger stations, most especially those with attached shopping malls like Washington DC. Amtrak operating a UPS or Fed Ex shipping store. To select Big City Destinations in the U.S. Amtrak would carry the packages and then deliver them to USPS, Fed Ex or UPS for final delivery in the target Big City Terminal they arrived at. If the routing was not to another Big City Destination on Amtraks route then they could be shifted over to UPS, Fed Ex, USPS at point of shipment. Computers can determine in the Point of Sale system which routing would be cheaper or faster as well as the Computing System would assess Amtrak's share of the tariff. The People hired would not need to be any smarter than the folks in a Fed-Ex Kinkos location that ring up the shipment sales there.
As far as facilities, you only need the Fed-Ex, UPS Express Package store at each Big City destination to hold packages as is the case now with Fed-Ex Kinkos. Maybe a Dolly or wagon or two. Fed Ex, UPS can send trucks to the station locations to pickup the packages at scheduled times just like they do for a Fed-Ex Kinkos location now. Also, a good portion of Amtrak Big City stations are right next to a large USPS location anyway, even with staircases and elevators removed.......I am sure they would find a way for USPS packages.
Extra stops for just for packages at Sunnyside or Ivy City would dismay passengers, and does not seem appropriate for a high speed corridor. (unless the train terminated both ends at those 2 yards)
If it is tried, limit the use to the NEC (Amtrak and MN-owned). If the freight lines still try interference on freight railroad lines, the price they would pay could be very costly, to them.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It may be because of platform restrictions that baggage cars coud only be at front of train one way and back another. If two stations were dimetrically opposed loading that could cause an additional stop for express slowing up train ?
I have used Grayhound's Package Express - with what I was shipping, they charged 20% of what UPS was quoting on the same shipment. If express does not denigrate the 'passenger experience' it becomes found money for the carrier.
In the railroad enviornment, adding additional cars to passenger trains would denigrate the passenger experience.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yes, Amtrak was once in the express business. I remember reading about delays waiting for express cars to be added after passengers boarded.
If freight carriers are displeased, friction may ensue. Amtrak ends up playing tag with the rear end of coal trains. True, or not, some will claim the freight carrier's deliberate dispatching is the cause.
There is money to be made in express shipments. Private carriers used to run mail and express trains. Most of these trains carried a trailing passenger coach, or two. They were scheduled to meet the demands of the express market.
Some mail and express trains ran end to end faster than the carrier's premier passenger train. That was before air freight. Many express trains made a lot of stops fast passenger trains blew past.
There were depots set up to handle passengers and express across the continent. That infrastructure is largely gone.
Amtrak may be able to make money off express on its own right of way in the Northeast Corridor. Running trains geared to serve express rather than passengers would probably be the model.
oltmanndIf it fit into the package carriers "premium" product line, I suspect Amtrak could make the claim it doesn't compete with the frt RR intermodal product. You'd have to do some sort of load to destination, roll on roll off containers with at hub and spoke network. I could see it working along the NEC and it's extentions where traffic and tolls make truck operations expensive, but loading and unloading at NYP as a hub might be problematic.
Of course it could work if folks with your vision and competence were involved, but as you have said so many times about Amtrak, they do things a certain way because that's the way it has always been done (Oltmann's Axiom).
V.Payne NRPC has the legal authority to haul express freight and is even charged to try to increase such business to offset losses, so the lawsuit would not go far. Even during the freight car version of express Class 1's lost the appeal. All along the NEC this could work for same day deliveries to the downtown cores, which is a niche.
NRPC has the legal authority to haul express freight and is even charged to try to increase such business to offset losses, so the lawsuit would not go far. Even during the freight car version of express Class 1's lost the appeal.
All along the NEC this could work for same day deliveries to the downtown cores, which is a niche.
+1
schlimm Even if the legalities were overcome, I doubt if Amtrak has the skill sets and acumen in its staff to run such an operation successfully.
Even if the legalities were overcome, I doubt if Amtrak has the skill sets and acumen in its staff to run such an operation successfully.
It wouldn't need much. UPS et.al. would supply it.
If it fit into the package carriers "premium" product line, I suspect Amtrak could make the claim it doesn't compete with the frt RR intermodal product.
You'd have to do some sort of load to destination, roll on roll off containers with at hub and spoke network.
I could see it working along the NEC and it's extentions where traffic and tolls make truck operations expensive, but loading and unloading at NYP as a hub might be problematic.
There is a shade of difference here. During the Warrington presidency, Amtrak pushed heavily for mail and express business under its own name. Some of the Class 1 roads complained (I believe that UP filed suit) but the courts upheld that Amtrak Express could operate as a sideline to its passenger business. On the other hand, contracting to haul UPS and/or FedEx trailers would be going after freight business, which is not permitted.
All along the NEC this could work for same day deliveries to the downtown cores, which is a niche. Elsewhere, the pallet sized LTL market could use competition and at the current market price point there is some "fluff" as long as a warehouse is not run. I noted a design previously.
All's I can think of, is poor old REA.
If I were running a Class I, I would sue to stop this infringement into my freight business.
I doubt a suit will be necessaryt due to training and service issues and more basically very limited market appeal. Postman comes to my door every day. Regular UPS shippers either have daily or better pickup at their door, or order pickup as required. What market niche would even be interested in such a service? How would it integrate with USPS or UPS systems?
Mac
I don't know how the Class I carriers would react to this but possibly Amtrak could work out a franchise agreement with the larger stations in which it accepts both USPS and UPS packages for haulage in it's baggage cars. So for example CHI to MSP or CHI to LA? Some transloading might need to happen to FedEx or UPS trucks for delivery in outlying areas but that could be done by the FedEx or UPS truck driver largely as it is now with their existing franchisees and with the USPS. I think it would benefit USPS as well as FedEx or UPS to have the extra surge capacity in times of severe weather or peak package handling times.
Of Course at handful of Amtrak employees at each location would need to be cross-trained in how to accept the packages, weigh and ticket them for transportation.......which I think is doable and would make some Amtrak employees more revenue efficient.
It's an idea that will probably never happen of course but I thought I would float it. I know they tried this before with express boxcars, this idea would be smaller, with less volume and only on selected routes. Maybe this would fill up the baggage cars with small package express?
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