bill613a: Thank you for remembering the Lake Shore Limited on its 40th anniversary. I well recall the the first eastbound train as I had a roomette aboard. The train's arrival into Cleveland that evening around 11:30 or midnight was cheered and welcomed by some, but also met by about 20 or more vocal and sign-carrying protestors who were employees of Greyhound, sure that Amtrak would kill their service to points east, but maybe they feared that there would be a big rail passenger renaissance, not such a fanciful idea in 1975.
This maid-of-all-work passenger train was never glamorous. It began, naturally, with an assortment of cars from different railroads in various liveries. The Lake Shore Limited never got the refurbished equipment the Broadway Limited did (remember its double diner?) nor did it have a domecar like the Capitol Limited had for years. It did carry a slumbercoach for some years but it was never promoted as a sexy train.
Other memories of that memorable first train include the delicious breakfast in a former NYC diner with NYC marked creamers on the table. I recall the hungry, bedraggled dog in Albany to whom the chef threw a number of bones & half-eaten steaks (bravo, chef!). The same dog got the same leftovers when I rode the train again about a year later.
There was a real sense of pride and adventure on the train that night because it had taken the efforts of many people and grass roots organizations to make the train a reality. For Clevelanders, this train re-established us as a place on the Amtrak map. Now we could get to both NYC and Chicago without a 60 mile drive south to Canton.
The station is another story. It's a shock to realize the lakefront Amshak has now been our station as long or longer (depending on how one counts it) than the sacred Cleveland Union Terminal, one of the best-designed stations ever built in the United States. Amtrak & others talk about giving us a new intermodal station someday. They'd better hurry because this one is in bad shape.
Bravo the Lake Shore Limited, named after its eponymous railroad headquartered in Cleveland so long ago. Long may the LSL travel in safety and peace.
Today is the 40th anniversary of the LAKE SHORE LIMITED.
prr used position lights, then some color-position lights in some places
schlimm I'm assuming the Conrail line in question was old NYC. That line was fast and had a very long tangent.
I'm assuming the Conrail line in question was old NYC. That line was fast and had a very long tangent.
Both were ex-NYC I believe. Toledo-Chicago and Detroit to Dearborn (ex-Michigan Central). They had the regular single lens multi-color CTC lights back then on parts of the route sooo, not sure Pennsy used those.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmanndThe amazing thing is that Conrail ran as many or more trains on the Chicago Line back then as NS does now. After the split, some traffic moved over to the B&O. The problem seems to be Chicago. The flow and route mix has changed some, and trains, particularly intermodal, are considerably longer.
Yes I noticed the difference on the Capitol Limited about 2 years ago. No more rocket ship route from Toledo to Chicago on Amtrak. We stopped a few times and had to wait. I think your right about train length increasing and siding length not having caught up yet. Overall I was always impressed watching Conrail when I lived in Detroit.........very efficient operation even on the Michigan Central line.........watched them do a delivery to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn once. Crew was friendly and very customer service oriented, reminded me of the Milwaukee Road.
CMStPnP schlimm Maybe run both? Cleveland's ridership numbers are low: 50, 940 in FYI 2013. Toledo better: 68,463, maybe bus passengers from MI? Erie 18,108. In Michigan on the route in question: Ann Arbor 158,717 Battle Creek 49,203 Dearborn 81,878 Detroit 70,626 Jackson 31,481 Kalamazoo 129,858 New Buffalo 19,902 Niles 21,306. If you add in the spur to Pontiac, you get Birmingham 23,257 Pontiac 16,813 and Royal Oak 37,158. That is a much larger potential market of proven train riders. Way back in the Conrail era when I worked in Detroit (early 1990s). I would drive to Toledo at 4 a.m. to catch the Lake Shore Limited around 5 -5:30 a.m. Because it would get to Chicago about 8:30 or 9 ish, it was faster and I could watch the sun rise in the Vista Dome. The drive to Toledo was about 45 min to an hour which still made for a shorter trip then Dearborn to Chicago via Michigan. So I would guess yes that Toledo does get a lot of Michigan passengers. Even with a 5 in the morning boarding Eastbound the train would regularly load about 20-25 passengers from Toledo Eastbound......which I thought was pretty decent. Also back then Conrail would pull the freights over for Amtrak, Amtrak usually did 80 mph easy across Indiana and Ohio and only stopped at a few stations, rarely stopped for other rail traffic back then.
schlimm Maybe run both? Cleveland's ridership numbers are low: 50, 940 in FYI 2013. Toledo better: 68,463, maybe bus passengers from MI? Erie 18,108. In Michigan on the route in question: Ann Arbor 158,717 Battle Creek 49,203 Dearborn 81,878 Detroit 70,626 Jackson 31,481 Kalamazoo 129,858 New Buffalo 19,902 Niles 21,306. If you add in the spur to Pontiac, you get Birmingham 23,257 Pontiac 16,813 and Royal Oak 37,158. That is a much larger potential market of proven train riders.
Maybe run both? Cleveland's ridership numbers are low: 50, 940 in FYI 2013. Toledo better: 68,463, maybe bus passengers from MI? Erie 18,108.
In Michigan on the route in question: Ann Arbor 158,717 Battle Creek 49,203 Dearborn 81,878 Detroit 70,626 Jackson 31,481 Kalamazoo 129,858 New Buffalo 19,902 Niles 21,306. If you add in the spur to Pontiac, you get Birmingham 23,257 Pontiac 16,813 and Royal Oak 37,158. That is a much larger potential market of proven train riders.
Way back in the Conrail era when I worked in Detroit (early 1990s). I would drive to Toledo at 4 a.m. to catch the Lake Shore Limited around 5 -5:30 a.m. Because it would get to Chicago about 8:30 or 9 ish, it was faster and I could watch the sun rise in the Vista Dome. The drive to Toledo was about 45 min to an hour which still made for a shorter trip then Dearborn to Chicago via Michigan. So I would guess yes that Toledo does get a lot of Michigan passengers. Even with a 5 in the morning boarding Eastbound the train would regularly load about 20-25 passengers from Toledo Eastbound......which I thought was pretty decent.
Also back then Conrail would pull the freights over for Amtrak, Amtrak usually did 80 mph easy across Indiana and Ohio and only stopped at a few stations, rarely stopped for other rail traffic back then.
The amazing thing is that Conrail ran as many or more trains on the Chicago Line back then as NS does now. After the split, some traffic moved over to the B&O.
The problem seems to be Chicago. The flow and route mix has changed some, and trains, particularly intermodal, are considerably longer.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BOB WITHORN ... I thought the upgrading Ann Arbor to Jackson was already being done? ...
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I thought the upgrading Ann Arbor to Jackson was already being done?
NS let the track run down because they only had local freight on the line. They had tried to sell the segment to a shortline, but Amtrak objected. As the State of Michigan was negotiating to buy the route, they paid NS to upgrade the line back up to regular passenger speed. I remember seeing those stories in Trains (NewsWire?) of track work in the Jackson area. The latest thing I see on MDOT's site is a grant application for HSR funds.
Very much a function of weight. GVT for trucks is 164,000 pounds on 11 axles. It's a wonder there is any pavement left.
FYI - grew up in Flint watching 40 ft flat stakerack semis hauling engine block and head castings from Saginaw to Flint. Trailers had 8 axles and were not twins you see now. Yuo could almost see the concrete flexing under the trailers.
upate; in 2012 there were 321 trucks licensed to carry up to 164,000lb / 2328 to carry 145,000 to 160,000 / about 3700 over 80,000lb but under 145,000.
CMStPnP Well I lived in Northern Germany near the North Sea for 18 months back in 1984, the autobahn in that part of the country was asphalt two lanes in each direction vs concrete. Although I saw the concrete portions were further south and if you check out YOUTUBE via search..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx7Meo7w-pY You won't see the USAF try that in the Midwest....lol. At any rate, I think it is the extreme swings in temperatures you have in the Midwest that are not necessarily prevelent in Germany. Generally in Germany it slowly gets cold and then gets warm again. Midwest and Texas both can see 40-50 degree swings in temperature over 24-48 hours. I don't remember that in Germany. I am not sure they use salt in Germany I think they use something else because I don't remember seeing the white spray on the cars in winter usually a muddy colored substance (maybe sand alone?). Yes though both asphalt and concrete roads are in better shape in Germany I think it has more to do with stability of road maintenence budgets myself. I think the Midwest defers maintenence a lot in times of budget crises where that does not necessarily happen in Texas. Every spring down here you can see the road department either filling in cracks with sealant or cutting out sections of crumbled or spalled concrete and replacing (they do the same with the sidewalks). Just a hunch I have that the Midwest scrimps on required maintenence. Everyone I know in the Midwest blames it on the weather up there though so I heard that story before. In Texas the concrete spalls due to original poor mixture or curing, IMO. We get it as well down here but the road department is right on it when it happens. When I was living in the Midwest in Waukesha County near to Trains HQ, they would always take the cheap way out every few years. Instead of repaving with asphalt they would put a thick layer of Oil on the existing asphalt and dump pebble stones on top of the goo. That was their way of saving money and extending the asphalt life. Everytime I saw that I wondered what they did with the tax savings because we never saw a local refund back.
Well I lived in Northern Germany near the North Sea for 18 months back in 1984, the autobahn in that part of the country was asphalt two lanes in each direction vs concrete. Although I saw the concrete portions were further south and if you check out YOUTUBE via search.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx7Meo7w-pY
You won't see the USAF try that in the Midwest....lol. At any rate, I think it is the extreme swings in temperatures you have in the Midwest that are not necessarily prevelent in Germany. Generally in Germany it slowly gets cold and then gets warm again. Midwest and Texas both can see 40-50 degree swings in temperature over 24-48 hours. I don't remember that in Germany. I am not sure they use salt in Germany I think they use something else because I don't remember seeing the white spray on the cars in winter usually a muddy colored substance (maybe sand alone?). Yes though both asphalt and concrete roads are in better shape in Germany I think it has more to do with stability of road maintenence budgets myself. I think the Midwest defers maintenence a lot in times of budget crises where that does not necessarily happen in Texas. Every spring down here you can see the road department either filling in cracks with sealant or cutting out sections of crumbled or spalled concrete and replacing (they do the same with the sidewalks). Just a hunch I have that the Midwest scrimps on required maintenence. Everyone I know in the Midwest blames it on the weather up there though so I heard that story before.
In Texas the concrete spalls due to original poor mixture or curing, IMO. We get it as well down here but the road department is right on it when it happens.
When I was living in the Midwest in Waukesha County near to Trains HQ, they would always take the cheap way out every few years. Instead of repaving with asphalt they would put a thick layer of Oil on the existing asphalt and dump pebble stones on top of the goo. That was their way of saving money and extending the asphalt life. Everytime I saw that I wondered what they did with the tax savings because we never saw a local refund back.
Less salt on the Autobahn and very little on city streets and secondary roads is my impression. Streugut is more common.
There is less "sealcoating" up here now than when I was a kid. It always made a mess, as it was just oil topped with very fine crushed stones and sand, but perhaps it prevented the microcracks from getting enlarged in the winter from the freezing/thawing cycles?
Temperature swings are the problem, but not so much the magnitude but frequency which causes the water in cracks to expand and enlarge them. Combine that with snowplows that often chew up pavement and you have pothole city every March.
In Illinois, where corruption is notorious, I wonder if paving materials used always/ever match specifications.
That is also my understanding, that in Germany they spend more up-front for construction, so that they have longer lasting roads.
They do use less salt in Germany. They also use "Streugut" which is grit from sand and maybe cinders. But I believe an analysis of the mix of components of the concrete and asphalt used here would show they differ in percentages of the mix from theirs.
As far as concrete roads eaten away by salt, etc., we might want to look north and overseas for some clues and answers.
After all, it snows a lot and gets even colder in Canada; yet they seem to have roads that last. It snows in Germany, too, but they have good roads, as well.
How do they do it; why can't we? I think the answer is they take care of stuff. In the USA we contruct roads and bridges...then fail to maintain them. My guess is that there are more lobbyists for new things, mostly paid for by the federal government, then there are lobbyists for maintaining things.
The German students and teachers I've met over many years always shake their heads in disbelief at the condition of our roads. Somehow, telling them that we prefer low taxes ("government isn't the solution, it's the problem") never seems to convince or impress them...or me.
Future Prime Minister Trudeau promised to raise taxes and fix the infrastructure...and won, big! How long will America fall for the proposition that nothing can be done, ever, and that this as as good as it gets or that we can afford?
The same problem occurs on norhtern Illinois roads. When built or totally rebuilt, they often do use thick reinforced concrete, but the salt, the many freezing and refreezing cycles, and plowing after a few years causes spalling, cracking etc. As I recall, roads in Georgia were mostly asphalt and held up very well, probably because of the absence of the three factors above.
Schlimm, thanks, I wish I had more to update on Michigan HrSR, but there is little recent news reported on it.
CMStPnP, I think our crumbling highway problem has more to do with the highest truck weight limits in the nation, that with real estate developers. We have some new urbanist that advocate for smaller home lot size. As far as concrete roads go, it may be the cold climate up here, plus Michigan uses lots of salt in the winter, which does a number on reinforced concrete rerod. I was told that there is some sort of agreement that the highway dept needs to keep parity between the amount of concrete and asphalt used.
Thanks Mike and CMStPnP for two very informative posts. They are becoming an endangered species on these forums.
MidlandMikeOhio turned down federal money (TIGER grant?) to start a Cleveland-Cincy corridor. They sniffed that it was not true highspeed. And of course Wisconsin turned down the federal money for the Madison extension. Instead that money went to Michigan to buy the Kalamazoo-Detroit line from NS. This is the segment that is now proposed to be brought up to 110mph speed, of which this thread has been talking about. But I have not heard where this extra money is going to come from. The roads in Michigan are some of the worst in the nation, and the legislatures latest proposal to fix them involves a tiny gas tax increase (that doesn't keep up with inflation), coupled with a income tax cut (that would keep up with inflation), and making up the rest by cutting other state programs. I don't see any money for rail coming from the state. I don't see much chance for more federal dollars in the near future either.
Yeah you guys in the Midwest are too soft on real estate developers. One reason why your roads are so bad. Here in Texas, especially the suburbs we make the real estate developers pay for the capacity improvements to the surrounding roads instead of having the tax payers pay for it (which is a developer subsidy). In return we allow the developers to place the houses closer together....than generally would be acceptable in the Midwest. This improves population density as well as increases the amount of families paying for property taxes over a given area which in turn benefits the overall tax pool (in my opinion) as property taxes can be raised higher without the corresponding pinch you have in Midwest for someone with a home on 1-3 acres of land. The closer in house spacing also reduces urban sprawl without a huge impact on quality of life. The housing is also more affordable without the large tracts of land underneath.
The other thing I just do not understand is the preference for asphalt for paving in the Midwest vs using concrete. Yes it is cheaper but it requires a lot more taxpayer maintenence than concrete. We use asphalt for our country Farm to Market roads but most suburbs to Dallas and Ft. Worth use concrete for paving subdivisions, alleyways, and city streets.
As for Wisconsin turning down the HSR funds. I am happy that happened as it increased the funds to other states that were more ready for HSR like Illinois and Michigan. Wisconsin voters are still not yet 100% on board with HSR and if Walker had accepted that package it would have been a long term financial disaster for the state. Even so with it's rejection, Gov Walker has not totally abandoned Amtrak as his administration still took the grant to complete installation of welded rail on Chicago-Milwaukee and increasing by a few the rail crossovers that will help with increasing capacity. Also, Wisconsin has deferred but not totally rejected adding another Chicago to St. Paul frequency. They are also putting pedestrian overpasses and a elevated mezzaine in the Milwaukee Amtrak station to replace the tunnels under the tracks. I have not seen the plan for that yet but hopefully it increases the crowd capacity of the station itself as it is rather small for a intermodal depot where the plan is to add more trains and busses to it in the future. Eventually there will be Chicago to Madison trains via Milwaukee and Watertown, just not yet.
It gets really crowded in the Milwaukee Amtrak station when both the Empire Builder and a Chicago-Milwaukee train pulls in at the same time as well as one or two busses.........they need to fix that ASAP before adding new intermediate distance trains.
CMStPnP Yeah, from what I understand Ohio is not paying for any Amtrak service and I cannot remember the last time they paid for track improvements for Amtrak for speed up of trains.......so I don't have much sympathy if they lose a train. Wisconsin has done a lot more with Chicago to Milwaukee service. Track improvements, new stations, more frequencies (I think they just added a train for the weekends (Fri-Sun with a late night departure from both Chicago and Milwaukee). Also, WisDOT seems to be focusing hard on how to get the trains and corridor above break even and off the operating subsidy dole. ...
Yeah, from what I understand Ohio is not paying for any Amtrak service and I cannot remember the last time they paid for track improvements for Amtrak for speed up of trains.......so I don't have much sympathy if they lose a train.
Wisconsin has done a lot more with Chicago to Milwaukee service. Track improvements, new stations, more frequencies (I think they just added a train for the weekends (Fri-Sun with a late night departure from both Chicago and Milwaukee). Also, WisDOT seems to be focusing hard on how to get the trains and corridor above break even and off the operating subsidy dole.
schlimm MidlandMike What is really sad, is that we are talking about trying to ration one LD train amongst one of two metro areas (Detroit or Cleveland), both of which have multi million populations. There should be LD trains thru each metro, plus daytime corridor trains CLE-NYP, CLE-CHI, CLE-PHL, DET-CLE-PIT, and BUF-CLE-CIN. That would be great ideally. But that is not going to happen any time soon...
MidlandMike What is really sad, is that we are talking about trying to ration one LD train amongst one of two metro areas (Detroit or Cleveland), both of which have multi million populations. There should be LD trains thru each metro, plus daytime corridor trains CLE-NYP, CLE-CHI, CLE-PHL, DET-CLE-PIT, and BUF-CLE-CIN.
What is really sad, is that we are talking about trying to ration one LD train amongst one of two metro areas (Detroit or Cleveland), both of which have multi million populations. There should be LD trains thru each metro, plus daytime corridor trains CLE-NYP, CLE-CHI, CLE-PHL, DET-CLE-PIT, and BUF-CLE-CIN.
That would be great ideally. But that is not going to happen any time soon...
That's he sad part.
My source was RTN from the early 90's. If I can find the time and energy I'll see if I can dig them up from the archives. I live in NE Ohio and have ridden the LSL frequently and never saw one.
RTN #502-April 1994 Page 22 Cars & Consists Dome #9401
Also, interesting in Texas.......they keep mentioning bringing back train service to the border town of Laredo and potentially Monterrey, MX (via San Antonio). The latest to mention it was the President of the Texas Central High Speed line as a potential future corridor. Interesting because I have not thought that route would have a lot of passengers. I hear it mentioned in Dallas as well when they are discussing the future with rail passenger travel......just sometimes mentioned, not a lot.
Even Texas is doing more than Ohio is for Amtrak. Working towards an eventual reroute of the Texas Eagle over to former Rock Island trackage between Dallas and Ft. Worth that should cut some real time off the Texas Eagle schedule and elim a back-up move into Ft. Worth's Amtrak station. Ft. Worth's Amtrak intermodal station is designed real similar to Milwaukee but instead has a lot more City Bus Routes stopping there vs. Milwaukee. I wish they would fix Dallas the same way. Texas is also paying for part of the Heartland Flyer runs into Oklahoma City which I hope is eventually extended to Kansas City. Texas is also working on a second Commutter train route from Ft. Worth to the DFW Airport using the Cotton Belt trackage. I read they already did either an RFP or order for Stadler Rail Cars for this.
NKP guy I agree completely with Midland Mike. schlimm: I count 2 trains each way, or 4 total per night: two to Chicago, one to NYC/Boston & one to Washington.
I agree completely with Midland Mike.
schlimm: I count 2 trains each way, or 4 total per night: two to Chicago, one to NYC/Boston & one to Washington.
That's what I was attempting to say in an awkward phrasing: 2 trains, the Capital Limited and the Lake Shore running bi-directionally, 4 trains total daily.
Midland Mike's proposal sounds a lot like Peter Lyon's daydreaming in "To Hell In A Day Coach". While daytime corridor service at least makes a modicum of economic sense, a long-distance train serves little useful purpose beyond George Hilton's observations on Erie's passenger service. Erie had few end-to-end passengers but the passenger volumes held up based on service from one endpoint to the smaller cities along the route.
That would be great ideally. But that is not going to happen any time soon. So the speculative ideas that posters have put forth are to make the best of the present restrictions by directly linking MI with the east coast. Since Cleveland already has 2 LD trains (4 each way per night!) it seems reasonable that Detroit, etc. should have one. I also think it is pathetic that we do not have a direct link from the midwest to southern Ontario and Toronto.
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