Obama to sign high speed rail deal

[MikeF90]

After rereading the articles I should have quoted this:

"The biggest challenge has been a federal funding requirement that high-speed trains be manufactured in the United States, even though no such trains are produced in the country, Marnell said."

I think this only a requirement if you are going to suckle off of the public teat for purchasing the infrastructure, correct me I've overlooked something on this supposedly privately financed project. 

[Overmod]

MikeF90

XpressWest chief executive Tony Marnell said in a statement that his company's "ambitions outpace CRI's ability to move the project forward timely and efficiently".

I'm sure they do!

The question is, however, whether his company's competencies outpace anyone's abilities to move the project forward timely, efficiently ... at all.

[CMStPnP]

MikeF90

In more fantasy news, XpressWest has unilaterally ended its relationship with the Chinese consortium "China Railway International". And I quote:

XpressWest chief executive Tony Marnell said in a statement that his company's "ambitions outpace CRI's ability to move the project forward timely and efficiently". 

The original article: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-rail-xpresswest-idUSKCN0YV05R

LOL!, in non-businessman speak that means the Chinese refused to pay for it and this company has no other means of finance other than to find someone with deep pockets.

[MikeF90]

In more fantasy news, XpressWest has unilaterally ended its relationship with the Chinese consortium "China Railway International". And I quote:

XpressWest chief executive Tony Marnell said in a statement that his company's "ambitions outpace CRI's ability to move the project forward timely and efficiently". 

The original article: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-rail-xpresswest-idUSKCN0YV05R

[tomikawaTT]

Original post corrected.

When you write about events over a 2500 year span as if they were all occurring in close sequence it's easy to lose track of the centuries.

The leading edge of the Confederation Universe is now at 3626, more than a millennium after Earth was declared uninhabitable.  I wonder if Nevada-SoCal had high speed rail before the casinos cashed their last chips and closed...

Chuck (sometimes SF author)

[schlimm]

tomikawaTT

Nevada Governor Sandoval included the framework for the High Speed Rail Commission in his first, "State of the State," speech after his election in 1910.  

Yes, 105 years is a long time.

[tomikawaTT]

MikeF90

 

I did notice that local newspapers have covered the recent antics of the suspiciously new "Nevada High-Speed Rail Authority".

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/traffic-transportation/sandoval-appoints-5-high-speed-rail-board

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2015/sep/29/high-speed-rail-panel-to-select-operator-by-nov-30/

How did this agency come about?

Actually, Nevada Governor Sandoval included the framework for the High Speed Rail Commission in his first, "State of the State," speech after his election in 2010.  Interesting that it's taken this long to actually be convened...

Chuck (Bemused Southern Nevada resident)

[CMStPnP]

They have been talking about Dallas to Shreveport rail passenger service for over a decade with the Casinos promising that it will increase their take and even implying they might contribute.     When it comes time for the hat to be passed for the demonstration run using Amtrak...........suddenly the Casinos have no money available and don't think it is such a good idea anymore.

TRANSLATION:  It's a great idea and will help my bottom line as long as Joe Taxpayer funds it entirely.

MORALE OF THE STORY:  Don't depend on Casinos to fund ANY major infrastructure development unless they are committed to do so in writing.

[MikeF90]

tomikawaTT

Wonder of wonders, the local (Las Vegas) NBC outlet actually aired a two minute bit on the, "High speed rail link to Southern California." Full of pretty cartoons and a couple of European EMU pics. They carefully danced around WHERE in Southern California the rails would terminate...

I did notice that local newspapers have covered the recent antics of the suspiciously new "Nevada High-Speed Rail Authority".

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/traffic-transportation/sandoval-appoints-5-high-speed-rail-board

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2015/sep/29/high-speed-rail-panel-to-select-operator-by-nov-30/

How did this agency come about?

[tomikawaTT]

Wonder of wonders, the local (Las Vegas) NBC outlet actually aired a two minute bit on the, "High speed rail link to Southern California."  Full of pretty cartoons and a couple of European EMU pics.

They carefully danced around WHERE in Southern California the rails would terminate...

I still say that I won't take this seriously until I see revenue passengers de-training in Las Vegas.

Chuck (Clark County resident)

[blue streak 1]

spsffan

 If I'm going to have to leave my car in Victorville (or Palmdale even) even as a railfan, I don't think I'd bother.

 

At least for Palmdale you might be able to connect by using Metrolink.

 

[CMStPnP]

I don't think gambling schemes to bring in more clients hold up for very long and I think the LA to Las Vegas HSR will probably not be a success.     There are better corridors in more dire need of HSR than this one.

[spsffan]

And, as a Southern California resident for 50+ years, I'll add that again, the proposal is to start in Victorville. Heck, if I'm going to have to get myself from West Los Angeles to Victorville, I might as well stay in the car all the way to Vegas, and have the use of my car there. On good days, traffic accross the desert moves at 85mph. 

 

These assorted proposals seem to leave out that the worst part of driving to Vegas is getting through the vast Southern California coastal megalopolis TO Victorville. If I'm going to have to leave my car in Victorville (or Palmdale even) even as a railfan, I don't think I'd bother. If I have to take a bus to get to the train station in the desert, I might as well stay on the bus all the way. 

 

[tomikawaTT]

NKP guy

After reading Electroliner 1935's comments on the Chinese coming to build this HSR, it reminds me of the saying that while History may not exactly repeat itself, nonetheless from time to time it rhymes.  

This wouldn't be the first time, would it, that numbers of Chinese come to California and the West to build a railroad over the mountains and across the desert and do something Americans needed to have done?

   I wonder if this time, like the last, it will be said to have been built with tea?

In the 1860s, America NEEDED a transcon, and Chinese labor helped build it (but it was built with American money, most from Virgina City's Comstock Lode.)

In 2015 the need for a HSR route from LA to Las Vegas is a desert mirage.  If it was needed, the Desert Wind would never have been discontinued.

As for the tea - it was made with boiled water.  Thus the Chinese avoided the water-borne diseases that were endemic among Caucasian rail workers on the Transcon.

Chuck (Skeptic in Southern Nevada)

[Dragoman]

NKP guy

After reading Electroliner 1935's comments on the Chinese coming to build this HSR, it reminds me of the saying that while History may not exactly repeat itself, nonetheless from time to time it rhymes.  

This wouldn't be the first time, would it, that numbers of Chinese come to California and the West to build a railroad over the mountains and across the desert and do something Americans needed to have done?

   I wonder if this time, like the last, it will be said to have been built with tea?

 

The difference I see is this:

 

The Chinese who came a century and a half ago were individuals, trying to find economic improvement by hard work here, while escaping from a feudalistic totalitarian society.

 

The Chinese offering to come today, are industrial concerns, controlled by a totalitarian government which has shown itself to be antagonistic to US interests in several arenas.

An historical rhyme, perhaps.  Not a repeat, it seems to me.  Whether ultimately for better or worse, we shall see.

 

I sure would like to see somebody put some sort of LA -  Vegas train together!

[NKP guy]

After reading Electroliner 1935's comments on the Chinese coming to build this HSR, it reminds me of the saying that while History may not exactly repeat itself, nonetheless from time to time it rhymes.  

This wouldn't be the first time, would it, that numbers of Chinese come to California and the West to build a railroad over the mountains and across the desert and do something Americans needed to have done?

   I wonder if this time, like the last, it will be said to have been built with tea?

[Electroliner 1935]

I would suggest that the Chinese can build high speed trains and overcome some difficult engineering problems. Poltical issues, maybe not. The example I am thinking about is the route to Tibet where the trains are pressurized and oxygen is added to the cars because the train is operating at a high elevation. I think GE was involved with the locomotive design. There was show about the line: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNYLgmLN00s.

Now they have a design team looking for work.

Video of the line is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Gqolxmmu8.

Some of the design milestones are listed here:

http://www.tibettravel.org/qinghai-tibet-railway/construction.html

As to the financing, when China is motivated for control of their border, and the government wants it, it gets done. Just like when Kennedy said we would go to the moon and the US was in a race with Russia. How the LA Las Vegas will be financed and ROW aquired is not in my pay grade.

Another video on Chineese Rail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w04Nv3PY1I 

This is a propaganda film but it is impressive. Like what the PRR built back in the 30's when they electrified the NEC. 

[tomikawaTT]

This Clark County resident will only be convinced that Xpress West or anybody will actually build a high speed link to Southern California when I see the first revenue train roll into Las Vegas.

These people, and their predecessors, have been, "About to break ground," as long as I've been living here (11+ years.)  If anyone has moved a spadeful of dirt, I missed the picture.  I heard (but can't prove) that one bunch actually acquired some rolling stock - and then transformed itself into a proposed rail tour around southern California.  (That bunch was planning to run all the way through Las Vegas to a station closer to the Las Vegas Speedway than to the Strip!)

Los Angeles - Las Vegas any speed rail has been like a desert mirage.  People see it, but no one can actually touch it.  If the casino and resort owners believed this could work they would be lined up, checkbooks in hand.  If they are, it's the best kept secret in Las Vegas.

Chuck (NORTH Las Vegas resident)

[Dragoman]

schlimm

 

 

Dragoman

 

 

Paul Milenkovic

...

Why are these trains best to come from China instead of from Japan (Nippon Sharyo), France (Alstom), Canada (Bombardier), Germany (Siemens), or Spain (Patentes Talgo)?

 

 

 

 

 

An especially interesting question, given that the Chinese trains are either Bombardier or Siemens designs.

 

 

 

 

 

free market economics?  probably cheaper.

 

 

Maybe, but sometimes you get the quality you pay for.  Are they cutting some corners to get the same design produced cheaper?

Or is it just cheaper labor?  And if so, do we want to support the way they reat there labor (and populace in general)?  Sorry, enough political overtone.

[schlimm]

Dragoman

 

 

Paul Milenkovic

...

Why are these trains best to come from China instead of from Japan (Nippon Sharyo), France (Alstom), Canada (Bombardier), Germany (Siemens), or Spain (Patentes Talgo)?

 

 

 

 

 

An especially interesting question, given that the Chinese trains are either Bombardier or Siemens designs.

 

 

free market economics?  probably cheaper.

[Dragoman]

Paul Milenkovic

...

Why are these trains best to come from China instead of from Japan (Nippon Sharyo), France (Alstom), Canada (Bombardier), Germany (Siemens), or Spain (Patentes Talgo)?

 

 

An especially interesting question, given that the Chinese trains are either Bombardier or Siemens designs.

 

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from Bloomberg, Sept. 17

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-17/china-u-s-reach-agreement-on-high-speed-rail-before-xi-visit

A China Railway Group-led consortium and XpressWest Enterprises LLC will form a joint venture to build a high-speed railway linking Las Vegas and Los Angeles, the first Chinese-made bullet-train project in the U.S. 

Construction of the 370-kilometer (230-mile) Southwest Rail Network will begin as soon as next September, according to a statement from Shu Guozeng, an official with the Communist Party’s leading group on financial and economic affairs. The project comes after four years of negotiations and will be supported by $100 million in initial capital. The statement didn’t specify the project’s expected cost or completion date.

 

The agreement, signed days before President Xi Jinping’s state visit to the U.S., is a milestone in China’s efforts to market its high-speed rail technology in advanced economies. The country has been pushing the technology primarily in emerging markets -- often with a sales pitch from Premier Li Keqiang-- as a means to project political influence. A $567 million contract last October to supply trains for Boston’s subway system was China’s first rail-related deal in the U.S.

 

The agreement also represents an important victory in China’s high-speed rail rivalry with Japan, as the two countries have competed for train contracts throughout Asia. The parent company of JR Central, Japan’s largest bullet-train maker, had expressed interest in the Los Angeles-Las Vegas line several years ago, and China and Japan are both expected to bid to supply train cars for a proposed high-speed rail line in California’s Central Valley.

 

Excerpt from L.A. Times, Sept. 17

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-vegas-la-chinese-high-speed-rail-20150917-story.html

Federal railroad records indicate that XpressWest has already secured approvals and permits from a number of federal agencies for the 185-mile route. Additional permits, approvals and environmental analysis would be needed for the 230-mile proposal…

Lisa Marie Alley, a spokeswoman for the California High-Speed Rail Authority, said the agency has had ongoing discussions with XpressWest to explore combining both systems and to ensure that XpressWest trains are designed to operate on the authority’s track. Alley added that the high-speed rail authority has not yet allowed XpressWest to use its right-of-way.

 

Excerpt from Las Vegas Review-Journal, Sept. 19

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/traffic-transportation/new-venture-touts-100-million-vegas-victorville-express-train

Las Vegas hasn't had regular passenger train service since 1997, when Amtrak stopped its Desert Wind route. With millions of Californians making the trek here by car and plane every year, the potential market for a cross-border train could be huge.

Initial plans called for terminating the route at Victorville, far from Southern California's population centers. But the current proposal, to push on to Palmdale, would link XpressWest into the California High-Speed Rail Authority's planned 800-mile system of 220-mph trains serving 24 population centers, including San Francisco, the Los Angeles basin, Sacramento and San Diego.

The Las Vegas line has run into roadblocks, however, in part because of the multibillion-dollar cost and the complexity of environmental reviews.

Over the years, different groups proposed conventional rail and magnetic-levitation trains. But in 2009, the XpressWest project drew a key supporter: U.S. Sen Harry Reid, D-Nevada.

"Senator Reid has been a cheerleader on this project for many years," Reid spokeswoman Kristen Orthman said Thursday. "He's glad to see this progress and remains committed to assisting as needed."

[Firelock76]

Just how well is that high-speed rail thing working out for the Chinese?  I remember reading several years back about wrecks, fatalities, and general unreliability. Then zilch, zip, nada. 

Remember this is a dictatorship we're dealing with here. Not Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany but a dictatorship just the same.  The know how to put blackouts on any bad news they don't want to leak out.

An example:  Heard any follow-up stories on that horrific factory explosion they had several weeks ago?  They whys and the wherefores?  Me neither.

Mind you. I'm not saying I don't trust the Chinese.  I do, but only to a certain point.

[54light15]

If it's a Chinese financed project, they will likely bring in thier own workers and locals are not hired, similar to what they do in Africa and parts of British Columbia these days.

[MidlandMike]

My assumption is that the Chinese would finance the project.  They have helped finance mega infrastructure projects all over the world.  If Xpress is a common carrier, they can use eminant domain to obtain ROW.

[ACY Tom]

ndbprr:

I merely pointed out that there was a significant disconnect between the title and the text.  It looks like there hasn't been much subsequent clarification.  I'll wait for better info from a better source.

Tom

[NKP guy]

At the risk of being excoriated here:

My Rule of Thumb when reading headlines like this, or like the "imminent shutdown of all US railroads,"  is to ask myself, "Did I read this in The New York Times, or some other place?"  Because if it's not in the NY Times it's probably a blogger's speculation.  

Let's see where this "project" is when the President of China returns home.

[MikeF90]

ndbprr

Apparently part of the Chinese president's visit will be to sign a high-speed rail provision between LA and Las Vegas with China providing the technology and trains. No Mention was made in the article I read about how to finance this line.

Exactly!  The XpressWest press release machine, basically, has barfed out some links to other agencies that clarify nothing. Other news articles quote the Chinese participants as estimating the project cost at around $12 billion USD.

I really, really hope that taxpayers don't get roped into this scam.   Ending the route at Victorville is pointless - if they really want ridership, do the EIR for continuing over/through Cajon Pass to San Bernardino and some Metrolink saving connections.

A previous topic pointed out a 'green' approach - expand gambling in California, reduce travel to Nevada and then LV/Reno will dry up and blow away. Not likely, our gov't can't even manage the state lottery properly.

Cue the classic music ..... 

[Dakguy201]

I'm a little surprised the Chinese would participate in such a ceremony.  Is it possible they don't understand the difficulties in the acquisition of non-federal land that would be required as well as the extensive permitting process?  Perhaps they are confusing their rather relaxed attitude toward of the limits of power with our circumstances.

It is sometimes said that they take a 1000 year view.  They are going to need it.