It will be interesting to see which company / companies will be the winners for the future high volume line. Many good candidates seem to exist. It look like at least Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler are taking extra burden from the operator away as they can provide all services that for the operator, who in turn can concentrate on train service, marketing, financials, etc.
schlimm I don't think a final decision has been made on the supplier of the trainsets for CAHSR, though probably Siemens.
I don't think a final decision has been made on the supplier of the trainsets for CAHSR, though probably Siemens.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Yes, it was discussed earlier in some train magazine in Europe, can't remember all of a sudden which. We are happy to know the history better :)
I think the issue is mostly that French might have been felt as arrogant salesmen (my guessing), so any explanation from the buyer woudl have served the purpose to get rid of them?
Well, hopefully the trains will U.S. built, even if they are designed elsewhere. Just like some Apple products are designed in U.S., assembled in China and manufactured all around the World. Cooperation on high tech works best! Share what is already known, discuss to find best new solutions.
schlimm The remark I wonder about is that the Alstom salesmen were kicked out of CA because france was occupied by NS Germany. Google it and the only citation is McKey on another forum. If that actually happened, it shows a total ignorance of history by the CAHSR folks.
The remark I wonder about is that the Alstom salesmen were kicked out of CA because france was occupied by NS Germany. Google it and the only citation is McKey on another forum. If that actually happened, it shows a total ignorance of history by the CAHSR folks.
You are right, unfortunately the TGV-LaPoste will be gone as now unfitting to high competition postal services. Hopefully Mulhouse, France museum might save one of the trailers ort even power cars like they have done to TGV-PSE locomotives.
NorthWest Exactly. The French government has an incentive to purchase French-built products built by Alstom, rather than German-built products from Siemens or Bombardier for its high speed lines. I forgot to mention in an older post that it appears that the TGV La Poste trains were retired from service on June 27th, ending the era of high speed rail freight.
Exactly. The French government has an incentive to purchase French-built products built by Alstom, rather than German-built products from Siemens or Bombardier for its high speed lines.
I forgot to mention in an older post that it appears that the TGV La Poste trains were retired from service on June 27th, ending the era of high speed rail freight.
Schlimm, I'm merely quoting on California issue, what the decision makers have been reported doing according to media. You and me, we can't help, even if we know history better than them, this is said to have been their rationing behind the decision.
On protectionism: 1) There are countries that know they are best in the World so everyone should listen to them, learn from them, buy mostly their own products. People living there act according to this pattern. I call this protectinistic attitude. It may or may not be enforced by import duties, there might be actually lesser need for duties when peoples views for other nations are like this.
2) There are also nations that see themselves loosing if they buy from others. Again the views are shared with a great number of people who act so that anything from outside their country is for bad. You can see many European nations in this point right now. Again, lesser need to have the import duties defined in legislation, people again work for themselves.
I think one important thing is to see that protecting country's own production (=protectionism) isn't itself for bad or good, it is just a phenomenon with lots of different ways how it is organized. And we can all then think for ourselves when something is for good or bad for us in our situation.
schlimm McKey Yes it does. French are not bound to invest something not made in France, expecially investing in competing product line not from Alstom. Similarly Siemens Vectr...oopps ACS64 is made of U.S. components, so it can be sold there. Alstom salesmen were thrown out of California (despite their expertise on high speed rail) because country was part of Nazi Germany during WW2. All forms of protectionism as I understand it, so this phenomenon still exist. schlimm McKey protectionism Does that apply? It is all one economic zone with no tariffs. 1. Protectionism is the economic policy of restraining trade between nations through methods such as tariffs on imported goods, restrictive quotas, and a variety of other government regulations designed to allow (according to proponents) fair competition between imports and goods and services produced domestically. basically it is a way of protecting domestic industries from foreign competition. 2. If Alstom is banned in California because France was occupied by NS Germany 1940-44, what about Siemens, which used death camp labor, such as at Auschwitz? Are they banned as well? Or are they exempted because they have a large plant in CA? Japanese trainset makers? What is your source for this? You made the same comment on the Trainorder forum.
McKey Yes it does. French are not bound to invest something not made in France, expecially investing in competing product line not from Alstom. Similarly Siemens Vectr...oopps ACS64 is made of U.S. components, so it can be sold there. Alstom salesmen were thrown out of California (despite their expertise on high speed rail) because country was part of Nazi Germany during WW2. All forms of protectionism as I understand it, so this phenomenon still exist. schlimm McKey protectionism Does that apply? It is all one economic zone with no tariffs.
Yes it does. French are not bound to invest something not made in France, expecially investing in competing product line not from Alstom. Similarly Siemens Vectr...oopps ACS64 is made of U.S. components, so it can be sold there. Alstom salesmen were thrown out of California (despite their expertise on high speed rail) because country was part of Nazi Germany during WW2.
All forms of protectionism as I understand it, so this phenomenon still exist.
schlimm McKey protectionism Does that apply? It is all one economic zone with no tariffs.
McKey protectionism
Does that apply? It is all one economic zone with no tariffs.
1. Protectionism is the economic policy of restraining trade between nations through methods such as tariffs on imported goods, restrictive quotas, and a variety of other government regulations designed to allow (according to proponents) fair competition between imports and goods and services produced domestically. basically it is a way of protecting domestic industries from foreign competition.
2. If Alstom is banned in California because France was occupied by NS Germany 1940-44, what about Siemens, which used death camp labor, such as at Auschwitz? Are they banned as well? Or are they exempted because they have a large plant in CA? Japanese trainset makers? What is your source for this? You made the same comment on the Trainorder forum.
NorthWestI suspect that what McKey is talking about is a French variation of the Buy American Act, which is essentially a form of protectionism designed to protect workers, if not domestic companies.
Section 165 (49 U.S.C. 5323) called the "Buy America" provision or Buy America Act—not to be confused with the 1933-enacted Buy American Act —applies to mass-transit-related procurements. It established requirements intended to give preference to the use of domestically produced materials on any procurements funded at least in part by federal funds. Implementation of the requirements is regulated by the Federal Transit Administration.
Thanks, McKey, for the spotting differences between the Duplex and 2N2. This should be very useful.
Buslist, the new Eurostar trainsets (now in testing) are a version of the Siemens Velaro, also used in China, Spain and Russia. I wonder if the Velaro platform was used because it would need the least amount of modification for Channel Tunnel service. (An ICE 3 went on a few trial runs through the tunnel a few years back).
I suspect that what McKey is talking about is a French variation of the Buy American Act, which is essentially a form of protectionism designed to protect workers, if not domestic companies. I don't think the EU is as unified as it sometimes appears. France has a strong interest in seeing Alstom suceed (enough that they provided them with a substantial bailout in 2004). Alstom currently does not have a multisystem platform like Siemens or Bombardier, since the Prima II has essentially been retired.
McKeyprotectionism
Definitely, SNCF (as part of the French conglomerate) wanted to stop Eurostar from buying those, but in the end Eurostar managenment got their will through. Even then this raises some very interesting questions on competition and protectionism.
Eurostar old units are worn out and uncomfortable (small British like loading gauge & unstandard components for a TGV), so they really need to be replaced. Basically, followed Eurostar management decisions several years, I've come to conclusion that they don't understand too much on railroad technology side, or simply don't care to optimize their systems, so hopefully they have made a right choice this time. Siemens is trying to have a top track record in their current line of vehicles, but I doubt they are cheap enough to match what the competition can offer. Once in competition the operators who have higher production costs will be likely to loose, like we've seen in other European countries.
Buslist Interesting that Eurostar, now fully SNCF controlled has chosen Siemens ICE type equipment for its latest purchase.
Interesting that Eurostar, now fully SNCF controlled has chosen Siemens ICE type equipment for its latest purchase.
Below are still the old Eurostar Capitals sets (the longer ones).
Looks like it still would be good to add the TGV-2N2 / RGV-2N2 / "Euroduplex" recognition help here:
1) Number series (on the sides of locomotive hood) 8xx or 47xx
2) Locomotive upper grilles have longer distance from supporters than on earlier models. Note: SNCF may do occasional partial rebuilding to its older units, so this is not 100% sure rule, so use it with other means.
3) Trailer intermediate connections look like this. (Again remebering that rebuilds to older generations happen).
JL ChicagoI've always felt that the French railways are underappreciated. Especially in the U.S. Imagine these double deckers on the NEC. And yes they will fit in the tunnels. And that new paint scheme? Very classy.
Indeed; I managed to find 60 in Gare de Lyon a few years ago. Hopefully they will still be around for a long while. The orange was wonderful, and I do hope it returns on the preserved units, but I understand why it was eliminated. Asbestos does make sense; American manufactureres had stopped using it in rail vehicles by this time, so I had forgotten about it.
About 619, for those who do not know, about 19 TGV Reseau power cars were modified as TGV Duplex power cars in order to free the multicurrent Duplex power cars for the TGV POS sets. I haven't found a good name for these, and I like the sound of "TGV Hybrid". I think I'll adopt that term. :)
Thanks again for the wonderful photos!
Thank you, McKey, for the written and pictorial information concerning the TGV equipment.
Johnny
Thanks Nortwest! It is sad to see TGV-PSEs go, after observing them developing gradually through decades. Probably several hundred components have been upgraded to newer technology while they have been serviced, sot they are not the same trains as entered lines in 1980s. It was quite interesting to notice, that when they were originally perfected several decades ago, this meant no fewer than _thousands_ of components changed to make them excellent production vehicles. Lots and lots of work...with excellent results. Special shelter is necessary too for the reason that asbestos was used for these sets...something that was excellent fire resistant and light weight insulation (albeit expensive) material at the time. All the multicurrent (read: Swiss) sets are now gone, but they have at least saved one locomotive to the museum from these, plus another one from a normal bicurrent versions. Hopefully we can see these painted back to orange-blue livery...
NorthWest SNCF has taken a different route than anyone else regarding modern high speed trainsets. They continue to order sets with power cars (though double deck) while everyone else has switched to straight EMUs. Good to see more duplexes, but sad to see the original Sud-Est trains go. SNCF has taken to scrapping them in a purpose-built tunnel as they are such an icon of France that scrapping them in the open would raise negative publicity. SNCF has also launched budget Ouigo to target the budget airline market. I'm not so sure I like the livery, though. Thanks for posting the excellent commentary! I love the B737s, they are built not far from here!
SNCF has taken a different route than anyone else regarding modern high speed trainsets. They continue to order sets with power cars (though double deck) while everyone else has switched to straight EMUs. Good to see more duplexes, but sad to see the original Sud-Est trains go. SNCF has taken to scrapping them in a purpose-built tunnel as they are such an icon of France that scrapping them in the open would raise negative publicity.
SNCF has also launched budget Ouigo to target the budget airline market. I'm not so sure I like the livery, though.
Thanks for posting the excellent commentary!
I love the B737s, they are built not far from here!
My target is to study Quigos ("We Go" spelled in French) later this year. Packing 770 people to unit made for 510/520 might create a little clustofobic atmosphere. But the coloring is definitely visible. If anyone is visiting Disneyworld Paris this summer, Quigo terminal is right next to it (serving the park).
Since we both enjoy TGV-PSEs, here is a short picture story what they looked like through the years. Pictures by Richard and Ilkka.
Good news? Some of the units were refurbished for second time before scrapping started, so lets hope even with their limited capacity they will clock another 5 million miles (per TGV) before being retired!
You're most welcome! High speed in Europe is one of my favorite subjects, so hopefully there will be many more stories and studies into the subject a little later.
schlimm Wonderful, useful commentary and pictures. Thanks!!
Wonderful, useful commentary and pictures. Thanks!!
French are often overlooked, because they are so poor salesmen. However, their engineering can be first class at best. (not always)
With train running inside Western Europe, there is always politics involved, especially when weaker coutries like Italy are concerned. Even if you have a train set running the same way as low cost airlines operate, with extreme efficiency (always improving this), weaker countries seem to be able to block their borders from other traffic, or making much legal and illegal hassle as David Haydock has pointed out (editor of Today's Railways Europe). One example of this is TGVs having to run on normal rail routes in Italy, where italian own high speed stock runs on high speed lines. Unfair? Well, the French countered this very efficiently by blocking Trenitalia from running at all to their country, except on a very slow traditional passenger connections. Effectively, the French told that every ETR500 unit (built by Ansaldo Breda) is built different by hand (which is probably true), so to homologate these and certificate for international running every trains should have been created to its own class! Very effective counter! 13) Anyways, here the TGV-2N2 with a TGV-Hybrid #619 (which should not _yet_ exist according to my data) is dashing towards Marseille and Paris. Bon Voyage! Can you see the similarity with say B737-800 and TGV-2N2 operations? Neither is the latest in technology, but both are extremely well working and extremely effective production machines. To my amusements (I flew the latest Norwegian B737-8xx from Nice) these vehicles also seem to share some of the design features. Of course train technology and airlines technology are closely related, as Bombardier might prove. Wonder when we will see Airbus high speed trains... 8-D
9-10) Pictures of articulation between trailers. (the safety feature) 11) Latest exterior info display.
7-8) Bar trailer (earlier buffet) acts as a natural barrier between 2nd and 1st classes.
So what is this train? It is the latest refinement of the long line of TGV production models, with just about everything checked for need of improvements. Some features were changed, others remain seemingly similar as earlier. For productivity's sake the double decked coaching is used today. It weights the same (actually slightly less) than a single level coaching, but it can carry ~44% more passengers, translating to better productivity. The AC locomotive at both ends may not be the meanest on market, but they handle their work extremely well. Looking at the trailer / coach section it can be uncloupled from locomotives with relatively ease now. But trailers are a section of 8 articulated modules. Only end bogies are actually under coaches, others are shared with adjacent coaches. There are a coupole of very good reasons for this: 1) In France the access charges (every train pays for access to national network maintained by state of France) are paid by axles. So for 8 trailers (standard for TGVs) you might have 8 x 4 = 32 axles, but for TGVs you only have 18, translating to paying only 56% of the access charges of a "normally built train". 2) Articulation is an important safety feature. As you can imagine, large number of human casualties has been saved in accidents as the trailers will not zig-zag, like a more traditional train would do. Looking at the locomotives at the ends (TGVs are always sandwiched by these) you can again see a long line of product development and huge numbers of locos produced. I see some features dating back to "shark nose loco" period of France, like the side grilles, basic construction, etc. Yet, some improvements have been done during all these 45 years TGVs have been built. The latest locomotive is an AC version, translating to more power and much less maintence need. Locos always run in double, as they are light, and should one fail, the other will still work. And of course on bigger lines chances are there is also another TGV unit coupled to failing unit (failures rarely happen, but the system is doubled here anyways). As you can imagine, the huge mass of loco and its safety structures act as a plow when need be. Again, during these years countles lives have been saved this way. The latest locomotive style, despite ints humble looks, is supposed to have ever better safety features. Been to the cab I see this very important to the life of the poor engineer sitting in front of a huge electrical cabinet protruding long into the cab form the machine room, not much spare room here, nor a chance to easily bail out. 4-6) Leading end of the train, with 5 second class coaches.
Here is the latest and greatest of the European high speed trains: TGV-2N2 of SNCF! (also dubbed as RGV-2N2 and sometimes slightly misleading as "Euroduplex") We've been watching these amazing production machines delivered in their older blue-silver colors for years now, while SNCF has been simultaneously painting older TGVs to current Carmillion scheme. This was my first spotting of the factory painted + vinyled Carmillion unit. So what is special about this train? About 600 Alstom TGVs run in France, U.K., Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Spain today. Usage figures have improved so that unlike earlier most of these are actually running and maybe clocking in average over 1000 kilometers almost every day. While other manufacturers and operators do much of the talking and boast on their superior technology, SNCF (they own Thalys, Eurostar, ... too) has decided they will do the business of moving passengers around. In both first class and budget classes. This is not achieved by having the latest technology that might not be working running on rails, but using something that has clocked by now billion miles and transported about 500 million passengers. TGVs simply work. And the 320 km/h / 199 mph top service speed (that can be raised to 340 km/h / 212 mph when lines speeds allow) in quite sufficient on today's crowded high speed lines. 1-3) TGV-2N2 #813 pulling in to Nice Ville, France with a sister double decked unit in blues.
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