Since the Wisconsin Talgo sets are just sitting unused, and Michigan in limbo about purchasing them, why not put them to use on the Piedmont?
The Piedmont equipment is not owned by Amtrak, it is owned by NC.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I'm pretty sure we are seeing the full extent of Talgo usage in this country. Too many other better options out there now.
Great question. Would nc consider the talgo train set?
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It was considered, but rejected quickly. To much money was one reason. We run a pretty tight, cash poor operation.
That's too bad. They would get considerable use instead of what I fear they'll get the turboliner treatment.
zkr123 That's too bad. They would get considerable use instead of what I fear they'll get the turboliner treatment.
Maybe the 'turboliner treatment' is the appropriate treatment for both pieces of equipment in the US operating enviornment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD zkr123 That's too bad. They would get considerable use instead of what I fear they'll get the turboliner treatment. Maybe the 'turboliner treatment' is the appropriate treatment for both pieces of equipment in the US operating enviornment.
Apples and oranges. The Talgo equipment is working well on Cascades services. That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service.
Remind me why they were unsuitable. There was a thread on this back during the consternation over cancellation, but I don't remember what made the trains unsuitable for service. (My understanding is the choice of Talgo was largely political, predicated on the plant for American production and its jobs being provided locally, but I might be confusing that with some other HSR builders.)
I could see Canada's VIA purchasing them for replacements of the renaissance cars.
They could be useful extending the Piedmonts south to Atlanta. There are lots of 3 degree curves on the route and you might be able to hold down a decent schedule with them without exceeding the 79 mph limit.
However, SC has near zero interest in such route extension, and GA only occasionally will pay for a study of the route.
Interesting to consider, but near zero chance of happening.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Another issue is maintenance. Out in the Pacific Northwest they have gained expertise in maintaining the equipment. Obviously the same could be developed in the east but with only two sets (if I recall) they all too likely to be treated as an oddball orphan. It takes time for mechanics to understand the foilbles of new (to them) equipment, and to determine what the stores section needs to maintain for spare parts.
Wizlish schlimm That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service. Remind me why they were unsuitable. There was a thread on this back during the consternation over cancellation, but I don't remember what made the trains unsuitable for service. (My understanding is the choice of Talgo was largely political, predicated on the plant for American production and its jobs being provided locally, but I might be confusing that with some other HSR builders.)
schlimmI think your latter hypothesis is correct, along with a lot of unproductive fussing about the location of the Madison station. As to the Talgo's suitability, much of the route was pretty straight (CHI-MKE) with some curves from MKE to MAD. Pail Milenkovic would know the real story.
The Milwaukee Road built most of it's Wisconsin mainline routes for High Speed Passenger service as it was competing with the already established Chicago and Northwestern in most cases. So it tended to select the shortest distance route with the least amount of curve and gradient in it.
Now you will get various arguments from people on here that think they know better but you only have to read the history of the Milwaukee road to see the above. In fact the original Milwaukee to Chicago route of the Milwaukee road was over C&NW via trackage rights..........until they built their own main out to the West of the C&NW.
If you look via Google Earth, even the turnout to the Madison secondary line at Watertown, WI that a Westbound train from Milwaukee would use is very gradual and intended for high speed. East bound side of the Wye was very sharp radius though.
So buying a Talgo for a line with few tight curves on it did not make sense to me. Paul has a slightly different view and states that there are a handful of sharp curves that he is aware of. Maybe but again in those sections they are already moving slow because they are close in to a major city. You can follow the route via Google Earth and see this for yourself. Mostly fairly arrow straight.
I grew up in close proximity to the Chicago to Milwaukee mainline in Brookfield, WI and my best friend had a house whose backyard abutted the Eastbound main in Brookfield.
Interesting thing about Brookfield, WI if you look via Google Earth is the seperation between Eastbound and Westbound mainlines (both of which are directionless under CP dispatching now with reverse CTC). This wasn't by accident. The Westbound main was constructed prior to the Eastbound main (double tracking) so it takes a more easy gradient through Brookfield. Because with double tracking they already decided on directional running they built the Eastbound main through Brookfield on a steeper gradient and a more direct routing.....in that also most trains would be descending the hill vs climbing it. Under CP they run both directions on both mains now but usually only the Passenger trains being lighter head West on the former Eastbound main and take the steeper graidient route.
Seems CP dispatches to take advantage of both tracks but rarely sends the frieght on the wrong main through Brookfield because of that hill.
cx500 Another issue is maintenance. Out in the Pacific Northwest they have gained expertise in maintaining the equipment. Obviously the same could be developed in the east but with only two sets (if I recall) they all too likely to be treated as an oddball orphan. It takes time for mechanics to understand the foilbles of new (to them) equipment, and to determine what the stores section needs to maintain for spare parts.
Good point. But, if the two work out, then order more and the fleet becomes sustainable.
Since, GA has no inclination to fund any passenger trains and SC has even less, the whole point is moot, anyway.
Also there are actually three versions of the Milwaukee Road Chicago to Twin Cities mainline.
A. The first branches West of Brookfield via Waukesha and ends up at Prarie Du Chien.
B. The second attempt is owned primarily by Wisconsin and Southern now and parallels the current mainline North East of it until around Columbus or Portage.
C. The third and last most successful attempt routes via Columbus and Portage.
So they had three chances to get it right. I believe the link up at Portage or Columbus was with an existing railroad that the Milwaukee purchased or merged with.
oltmannd cx500 Another issue is maintenance. Out in the Pacific Northwest they have gained expertise in maintaining the equipment. Obviously the same could be developed in the east but with only two sets (if I recall) they all too likely to be treated as an oddball orphan. It takes time for mechanics to understand the foilbles of new (to them) equipment, and to determine what the stores section needs to maintain for spare parts. Good point. But, if the two work out, then order more and the fleet becomes sustainable. Since, GA has no inclination to fund any passenger trains and SC has even less, the whole point is moot, anyway.
Of all the possible issues, maintenance is NOT one of them.
Talgo won't sell the units without a maintenance contract which provides that they do all of the upkeep.
schlimm Wizlish schlimm That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service. Remind me why they were unsuitable. There was a thread on this back during the consternation over cancellation, but I don't remember what made the trains unsuitable for service. (My understanding is the choice of Talgo was largely political, predicated on the plant for American production and its jobs being provided locally, but I might be confusing that with some other HSR builders.) I think your latter hypothesis is correct, along with a lot of unproductive fussing about the location of the Madison station. As to the Talgo's suitability, much of the route was pretty straight (CHI-MKE) with some curves from MKE to MAD. Pail Milenkovic would know the real story.
Tilting is for passenger comfort. It doesn't reduce forces at the track.
Phoebe Vet Tilting is for passenger comfort. It doesn't reduce forces at the track.
Correct, but the allowable underbalance for safe operations is more than is comfortable. Trains with tilt are allowed higher speeds through curves.
zkr123 Curves won't be an issue since they can tilt.
Curves are not an issue because there are relatively few and those mostly at station approaches where the train would not be at speed. The Milwaukee Road ran Hiawathas very fast with conventional coaches.
zkr123Curves won't be an issue since they can tilt
Curves and centrifugal force are a matter for any train.....tilting mechanism or not. I believe how they sell the Talgo is it can go through curves 10 mph faster with the same comfort level as a conventional train moving 10 mph slower. Heard that figure years and years ago and I am not sure if it is still true
If it is, 10 mph is hardly worth the cost of maintenence unless your mainline looks like a spaghetti noodle. I think I spelled that right but if not I am sure someone will tell me.
Would VIA use them for the Toronto - Montreal corridor?
No need for tilt. VIA's LRC cars have tilt, but it is disabled due to the train speeds being low enough not to need it anymore.
I think Amtrak should have them run from LA to Vegas. Have the line upgraded for 110 - 125mph and have high speed service between LA and Vegas.
One of the first US production TALGO trainsets (don't remember which mountain it is) was delivered in an altered paint scheme for a planned Las Vegas service that was cancelled. It matched the Amtrak California F59PHIs. Really, though, there isn't enough funding for this idea to be practical.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=500194&nseq=14
zkr123 I think Amtrak should have them run from LA to Vegas. Have the line upgraded for 110 - 125mph and have high speed service between LA and Vegas.
Johnny
schlimm Apples and oranges. The Talgo equipment is working well on Cascades services. That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service
Apples and oranges. The Talgo equipment is working well on Cascades services. That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service
The Talgos were purchased because the plan was -- and still is -- to use the existing route along the Mississippi River. That section contains some curves, and the Talgos would take them at a higher speed than the Empire Builder does at present.
There was a considerable amount of confusion regarding the entire Madison Hiawatha service extension, to the point where even other rail enthusiasts thought it was to bew a separate train. In reality, it was to be an extension of existing service, with the intention of extending the route all the way to Saint Paul, MN. The thinking was to purchase the train sets first, then extend the service afterwords.
CG9602 schlimm Apples and oranges. The Talgo equipment is working well on Cascades services. That said, they never should have been purchased for the expanded WI service The Talgos were purchased because the plan was -- and still is -- to use the existing route along the Mississippi River. That section contains some curves, and the Talgos would take them at a higher speed than the Empire Builder does at present. There was a considerable amount of confusion regarding the entire Madison Hiawatha service extension, to the point where even other rail enthusiasts thought it was to bew a separate train. In reality, it was to be an extension of existing service, with the intention of extending the route all the way to Saint Paul, MN. The thinking was to purchase the train sets first, then extend the service afterwords.
The problem there was they were planning a stub end terminal in downtown Madison and they had no agreement to return on the CP North of Madison back to the Chicago to Twin Cities Main. So if it was the plan as you say, they had some more planning and spending to do.
all you ever need to know about tilt
http://interfacejournal.com/archives/581
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