ROBERT WILLISON Perhaps we need to finally find a steady stream of funding so Amtrak is free from political realities. Then it does not have to limp along year to year with half ass budgets and year upon year of deferred maintenance based on short term planning and finding. Yes then a better management team can be put into place, develop a vision and act upon it. Until this happens we will get what we have gotten. No vision no plans for the future. No company can succeed this way. Not Amtrak not apple.
Perhaps we need to finally find a steady stream of funding so Amtrak is free from political realities. Then it does not have to limp along year to year with half ass budgets and year upon year of deferred maintenance based on short term planning and finding. Yes then a better management team can be put into place, develop a vision and act upon it. Until this happens we will get what we have gotten. No vision no plans for the future. No company can succeed this way. Not Amtrak not apple.
I think if the advocacy community didn't aid and abet Amtrak's disfunction, we'd be farther along. First step: A better Amtrak. They need an accountability partner, not an enabler.
At this point, Amtrak is going to have to show they've earned a steady funding stream. Fair or not, that's how it seems. Are we going to help them, or just help them with excuses?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Here's a good chunk of money for capital spending projects:
Unlocks an underutilized federal railroad loan program: The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) administers the Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing (RRIF) program, which provides long-term, low-interest loans for railroad-related improvements. While this program is authorized to provide up to $35 billion in lending, nearly all of it remains unused. Part of the lack of uptake stems from FRA’s slow, cumbersome approval process. PRRIA 2015 addresses these long-standing concerns by adding process improvements like approval deadlines to add clarity and reliability for potential borrowers.
ROBERT WILLISON Hard to develop a corporate culture when the company is one election away from disaster.
Very true. But, no excuse, either. All the more reason to hold them accountable.
dakotafredAmtrak blew, bigtime, its one recent opportunity for the coaches and sleepers it needs for expansion of the service.
I conclude from their actions that Amtrak has no interest in expanding or improving service except when pushed from the outside.
I guess my memories of the run up to Amtrak is a little different than yours. I know what my and many Amtrak passengers needs are . I suggest you spend some nights in a viewliner sleeper.
But in all seriousness these cars were not purchase with a mandate to expand service but to maintain the current level of service Amtrak offers and add capacity and flexibility to existing trains.
So we can agree to disagree.
ROBERT WILLISON Dakoadsfred, your missing the point. First regardless of the number of cars Amtrak purchased, the political reality is thier no support in congress to fund an expansion of service.
Dakoadsfred, your missing the point. First regardless of the number of cars Amtrak purchased, the political reality is thier no support in congress to fund an expansion of service.
Here, Robert, I intended the ability of Amtrak to add a car or two, sleeper or coach, to existing LD trains, where the traffic warrants, rather than additional trains, which I agree aren't going to happen anytime soon.
ROBERT WILLISON Why did railroads operate trains with baggage cars, simply because travelers take luggage.
Why did railroads operate trains with baggage cars, simply because travelers take luggage.
In the runup to Amtrak, most of the space in baggage cars with which I was familiar, on Union Pacific, was filled with mail. And this was on the "Cities" domeliners, which were at least as well patronized as today's LD Amtrak trains.
Sure, there was some checked baggage, but it didn't come close to needing the 85-foot car it was riding in.
Second baggage cars are needed for more than skiers and bikes, though its a market that exist in the north East and should not be ignored. Checked baggage is a competitive advantage that Amtrak does not need to lose. Medium and long distance trains require baggage cars to offer a higher level of service . how can you justify charging premium fares on new sleepers with no place for your baggage. Why did railroads operate trains with baggage cars, simply because travelers take luggage. Do airlines expect their passengers to lug thier bags on board with them, even carry ons cause issues on planes. So why would any one expect Amtrak passengers too. And some expect passengers to pay premium fares in new sleepers on downgraded trains. Not the way to grow the business.
The reality is that the sleepers and diners were purchased to replace the remaining heritage equipment Amtrak has been forced to maintain and operate, not to expand service.
I do agree with you that Amtrak needs to buy new equipment and to expand but don't see that coming.
Hey no arguments thier, but it most challenging issue is lack of consistent funding. Hard to develop a corporate culture when the company is one election away from disaster.
Procurement has been difficult since up to its recent history thier has been no domestic car builders. Amtrak has selected bids with companies with little experience in the us market. This has led to poor engineering, poor performance and delayed deliveries.
If Amtrak funding could be made more permanent, and less dictated by politics many issues could be resolved and the company more efficiently.
ROBERT WILLISON I agree that more revenue cars should have been purchased but not at the expense of baggage cars.
I agree that more revenue cars should have been purchased but not at the expense of baggage cars.
The problem is that Amtrak has a fairly disfunctional corporate culture. It's not really their fault - it's how they've been raised by their owners.
But, that's no excuse for doing dumb things (or not doing smart things). The baggage car order is dumb.
http://ti.house.gov/prria/
One of the goals of PRRIA15 is "Targets Investments Where There is the Greatest Potential for Success"
Hmmm. Amtrak has a problem with part of their game?
Also this: "Mandates that Amtrak carry out a business case analysis for all major procurements: Amtrak has a checkered history with procurements, including problems with the Acela fleet procurement and lack of funding to complete an ongoing purchase of sleeping and baggage cars. While the company has made progress on planning, it has been inconsistent with carrying out business cases for major procurements. This is particularly problematic when Amtrak relies on annual federal appropriations to fund its capital budget. PRRIA 2015 addresses this problem by mandating that Amtrak conduct a business case prior to entering into any large capital acquisition."
oltmannd A couple dozen bags (at most) don't need a whole new car.
ROBERT WILLISON Check baggage is providing a needed service. Ever been to the baggage pick up area in NYC, DC or Chicago? One option Amtrak provides, that other carriers charge a premium for is checked baggage. This gives travelers taking an extended stay the option to bring all thier personal belongings from clothing, skis to golf clubs. This is a popular option on the lake shore and on Amtrak silver services to Florida. The Adirondack, Vermonter markets thier ability to handle bikes and skis. So rather than discount the need, examine the all the options. Also gives Amtrak the ability to handled express shipments, and remains. Like Amtrak's original heritage fleet, these cars are worn out and out date. Replacements are long over due.
Check baggage is providing a needed service. Ever been to the baggage pick up area in NYC, DC or Chicago? One option Amtrak provides, that other carriers charge a premium for is checked baggage. This gives travelers taking an extended stay the option to bring all thier personal belongings from clothing, skis to golf clubs. This is a popular option on the lake shore and on Amtrak silver services to Florida. The Adirondack, Vermonter markets thier ability to handle bikes and skis. So rather than discount the need, examine the all the options.
Also gives Amtrak the ability to handled express shipments, and remains. Like Amtrak's original heritage fleet, these cars are worn out and out date. Replacements are long over due.
blue streak 1 oltmannd CMStPnP 2. Steel does not last forever in a railroad environment (which was mentioned above). Where are all these rebuilt box cars? Stainless steel last almost forever. Carbon steel cars can be patched indefinately, but you have to keep up after it. Amtrak is all stainless. There are many grades of stainless steel. Have some stainless pans that have gone bad in less than 10 years. A question - are the floor frames stainless or carbon steel and what grade is each ? If there are internal cracks fissures etc then repair can be very expensive.
oltmannd CMStPnP 2. Steel does not last forever in a railroad environment (which was mentioned above). Where are all these rebuilt box cars? Stainless steel last almost forever. Carbon steel cars can be patched indefinately, but you have to keep up after it. Amtrak is all stainless.
CMStPnP 2. Steel does not last forever in a railroad environment (which was mentioned above). Where are all these rebuilt box cars?
Stainless steel last almost forever. Carbon steel cars can be patched indefinately, but you have to keep up after it. Amtrak is all stainless.
From what I've heard from guys who know, the Budd built stainless cars don't die. The only trouble with them is dealing with wreck repairs. Welding is difficult.
[quote user="schlimm"]
ROBERT WILLISON Hey one additional thought schlimm try stuffing a bike into the overhead bins on the Vermonter or Ethan Allen. Amtrak passenger's have many reasons to ride and this wide variety of needs dictates needs for storage of ones belongings. I could go along with combines on certain runs I suppose, but Amtrak saw the need for full baggage cars and I believe they are in the position to make the call. Hey I'll assume that was an attempt at sarcasm, the last refuge of a failed argument. But if you were serious, try traveling on some real passenger rail servces in other countries where far more people carry bikes and skis. See how it's done. Amtrak make the call? Seriously?
Hey one additional thought schlimm try stuffing a bike into the overhead bins on the Vermonter or Ethan Allen. Amtrak passenger's have many reasons to ride and this wide variety of needs dictates needs for storage of ones belongings. I could go along with combines on certain runs I suppose, but Amtrak saw the need for full baggage cars and I believe they are in the position to make the call.
Hey I'll assume that was an attempt at sarcasm, the last refuge of a failed argument. But if you were serious, try traveling on some real passenger rail servces in other countries where far more people carry bikes and skis. See how it's done.
Amtrak make the call? Seriously?
There are bike rack on the RiverLine between Trenton and Camden NJ. The light rail vehicles don't need a baggage car to carry bikes.
There are bike racks in the commuter trains all over Europe. No baggage cars there either.
Amtrak "makes the call" based on a hidebound organizational culture driven by "what they did yesterday". Not much thought beyond that.
[quote user="ROBERT WILLISON"]
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
So I have another question. Why does Amtrak tote a full sized baggage on some trains but not others. Noticed the Texas Eagle does without but the Empire Builder has one or two......same with the CZ. Also noticed Amtrak still has the U.S. Mail decal on several baggage cars. Do they still carry mail?
Every one has a right to thier opinion or to share some one elses opinion. It is not apprently Amtrak's or its passenger's opinion. I experience a Amtrak trip from Albany to nyc to catch a ten day cruise. Four pieces of luggage and two carry ons did not fit comfortably in the over head or the car ends bins in business class. Neither was maneuvering down Penn station platform to find a porter.
On a recent trip to Florida it would have been horrible to stow four suit cases and two sets of golf clubs in my bedroom. Sorry just my experiences.
Kinda of tough to take your luggage on a plane with out checking it. Why should Amtrak passenger be forced to.
I just think that eliminating baggage cars would be a major inconievence for Amtrak passengers and a deterent for long distance passenger travel.
Is it the opinion that Amtrak ordered these cars so they could haul them empty? Don't think so. They have a purpose.
I agree that more revenue cars should have been purchased but not at the expense of baggage cars. Continuing to down grade Amtrak services will quickly eliminate the need for any additional cars.
Just restating what Johnny said so well.
When taking an extended trip, it is possible for passengers to need more baggage than can be handled in coaches or in Viewliner sleepers. Unlike the 10-6 sleepers of old, there is no rack at the end of a Viewliner sleeper--and I have had to move a suitcase out of the shower room so that I could use the room for its intended purpose. Once, I saw a family of four board the sleeper on the Cardinal--and each member of the family had two suitcases; I wonder how they slept in comfort. Superliners do have more baggage racks downstairs--and I have seen those racks in sleepers crammed full (I have not looked at the racks downstairs in the coaches). I have seen the rack at the end of a coach on the Adirondack crammed full; if we could have checked our large suitcase, we would have.
Johnny
In answer to your contention, yes I have seen the baggage pick up area at Chicago Union Station. Most baggage could be handled in the passenger cars in overhead bins or end of car racks (as everywhere else on trains). Ditto for other objects. A ski train could handle everything in a combine. Spending scarce dollars for a minor aspect of the business is simply a stupid decision from any perspective, and even more so when cheaper alternatives could have been arranged, as per don oltmann.
New cars, primarily coaches (and maybe some sleepers) are needed but were NOT purchased.
CMStPnP5. What is the weight of one of these new baggage cars compared to one of the old muesum relics still running around the system in operation?
The same +/- a tiny bit
CMStPnP6. What is the top speed capability of one of these new baggage cars compared to the old?
110 for the 85' Budds vs 125 for the new cars. 90 mph for the 60' cars
CMStPnP7. What are the past union complaints about the old baggage cars?
Have no idea, but likely it's that they weren't weather tight.
Amtrak's fleet planning is driven by the mechanical department. The first draft was ammended to include some commercial requirments when they got called on the carpet for it. This is old-school, silo-driven railroading.
CMStPnP1. Costs of maintenence and replacement of parts no longer produced.
Any part can be reproduced. If you have a fleet of cars, parts supply can be maintained. This gets to be difficult if you have a small fleet or one-of.
CMStPnP2. Steel does not last forever in a railroad environment (which was mentioned above). Where are all these rebuilt box cars?
CMStPnP3. How does bastardizing multiple builds and generations of coaches meet Amtrak's standardization of spare parts and reducing maintenece costs and training?
Don't do multiple builds. Amtrak has five generations of coaches. Amfleet I, Amfleet II, Horizon, Superliner I and Superliner II. "Bastardizing" some Amfleet I or II into combines with one design would be reasonable.
CMStPnP4. Who is to say that Amtrak does not have a plan for the cars and will not use all of them........even before we see them sitting in a storage yard unused? Do we have some inside information on that? Or are folks just guessing.
Amtrak says so themselves. The don't have a plan to deploy new sleepers yet.
1. Carrying baggage and some express business is a minor portion of Amtrak's mission, by any estimate. So when you have limited resources why use them for "nice to have" cars that are not part of your core business?
2. Why does Amtrak really "need" any baggage cars, old, rebuilt or new?
I have yet to hear a good answer to either question.
n.b.: The old baggage cars are not 75 years old. Makes for a more inflamed argument to claim that repeatedly, but it is a false claim.
They could have used the stainless shells of the 30-year-old Metro North and LIRR MU cars now being retired. Quarter-point doors big eoiugh for baggage use and structurally sound for a packed standing load. More than enough to choose the best in the best structural condition.
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