CMStPnP:
As noted the AAR calls all taxes levied on real and personal property property taxes.
"For this it gets essentially nothing."
In 2013 the UP paid $765,812 in property taxes to Brewster County, Alpine, Alpine ISD, Big Bend Medical District, Marfia, and Marfia ISD. It gets a return for these taxes in several forms.
It gets police, fire, and EMS services for its crews passing through Brewster County or staying overnight in Alpine. It gets fire protection for its buildings in Alpine and Marfia. It depends on the local first responders in case of an accident.
Approximately 75 per cent of the property taxes paid by the UP to Brewster county go for public schools. The railroad has a vested interested in having a educated and skilled workforce. Some of the graduates of the Alpine and Marfia public schools have gone to work for the railroad. It is the same concept of people who don't have childern paying school taxes. It is in society's interest to educate the young.
I am planning to open a new thread entitled "Do Railroads Pay Property Taxes" under General Discussion. I will attempt to show, at least to anyone who takes the time to understand the U.S. Tax Code, that U.S. railroads recapture all of the property taxes that they pay. In essence they don't pay any property taxes. It just looks that way.
dakotafred As you are the only one on here asserting equivalency, I'd say the monkey is on your back. Why don't you put up some data to show how your position is NOT ridiculous?
As you are the only one on here asserting equivalency, I'd say the monkey is on your back. Why don't you put up some data to show how your position is NOT ridiculous?
You called it ridiculous. An ethical person would not denigrate another persons point of view by calling it ridiculous. He or she would present a properly supported counter argument and leave the hot button words out of it.
I don't recall you ever putting up any verifiable data to support any position that you take.
daveklepper Relationship? Railroads pay property and real-estate taxes for the rigihts of way they use. Buses and trucks do not. This makes the overland transportation pciture unfair. Thus subsidization of LDs is necessary or greater than it would be with fair competition. Fairness would bring more hope for investment in the kind of passenger accomodations discussed on this thread. The user fees paid by truck, bus, and airline companies are not analogous to real-estate taxes paid by railroads but are analoqous to the expenses of the railroads in building and maintaining the RoW and all its facilities. Truck and bus and airline companies do not pay anything analogous to real-estate taxes on the RofW they use.
Relationship? Railroads pay property and real-estate taxes for the rigihts of way they use. Buses and trucks do not. This makes the overland transportation pciture unfair. Thus subsidization of LDs is necessary or greater than it would be with fair competition. Fairness would bring more hope for investment in the kind of passenger accomodations discussed on this thread.
The user fees paid by truck, bus, and airline companies are not analogous to real-estate taxes paid by railroads but are analoqous to the expenses of the railroads in building and maintaining the RoW and all its facilities. Truck and bus and airline companies do not pay anything analogous to real-estate taxes on the RofW they use.
I will withdraw proxy for property taxes. It was just three or four words in my post. As tends to be the case in these forums, some participants jump on one or two minor points and miss the major theme of the presentation.
As I will show in another thread, where it is more appropriate, railroads don't really pay property taxes. They recapture all of them and more in their federal income tax return. The taxes are paid by the federal taxpayers.
The argument that property taxes should be levied on roadways is a non-starter. There is no political support for it.
Several points Sam: The property tax on buildings the railroad owns is completely appropriate. Similarly, support buildings for road users (gas stations, car dealerships, food joints, motels, etc.) pay property tax. Crews and employees staying overnight are often in hotels, so they are already in effect paying property tax as part of the room rental. That's double taxation.
Subtract say $150,000 for taxes paid on buildings. That still leaves $600,000 paid for very little. The road users also get police, fire and EMS services and benefit from an educated work force. Excluding the support buildings mentioned above, how much did they contribute to the public schools? or EMS services?
And yes the railroad recaptures the cost of property tax from the shippers, so in a sense it could be argued it does not actually pay it. By the same argument you or I do not actually pay personal income tax since we recapture that in our wage demand or contract charges. Don't isolate two links in an endless chain and call it complete reality.
Sam1 "For this it gets essentially nothing." In 2013 the UP paid $765,812 in property taxes to Brewster County, Alpine, Alpine ISD, Big Bend Medical District, Marfia, and Marfia ISD. It gets a return for these taxes in several forms. It gets police, fire, and EMS services for its crews passing through Brewster County or staying overnight in Alpine. It gets fire protection for its buildings in Alpine and Marfia. It depends on the local first responders in case of an accident. Approximately 75 per cent of the property taxes paid by the UP to Brewster county go for public schools. The railroad has a vested interested in having a educated and skilled workforce. Some of the graduates of the Alpine and Marfia public schools have gone to work for the railroad. It is the same concept of people who don't have childern paying school taxes. It is in society's interest to educate the young. I am planning to open a new thread entitled "Do Railroads Pay Property Taxes" under General Discussion. These I will show, at least to anyone who takes the time to understand the U.S. Tax Code, that U.S. railroads recapture all of the property taxes that they pay. In essence they don't pay any property taxes. It just looks that way.
I am planning to open a new thread entitled "Do Railroads Pay Property Taxes" under General Discussion. These I will show, at least to anyone who takes the time to understand the U.S. Tax Code, that U.S. railroads recapture all of the property taxes that they pay. In essence they don't pay any property taxes. It just looks that way.
THE POINT IS THAT THE TRUCK AND BUS COMPANIES USING THE PARALLEL INTERSTATE GET THE SAME POLICE PROTECTION AND THE SAME VALYE FROM THE SCHOOLS BUT DO NOT PAY FOR IT LIKE THE UP DOES. THAT IS THE POINT.
daveklepper THE POINT IS THAT THE TRUCK AND BUS COMPANIES USING THE PARALLEL INTERSTATE GET THE SAME POLICE PROTECTION AND THE SAME VALYE FROM THE SCHOOLS BUT DO NOT PAY FOR IT LIKE THE UP DOES. THAT IS THE POINT.
As it turns out that the UP does not pay any local taxes, or at least much less than the tax rates and amounts would indicate, because it is able to deduct the depreciation expense associated with its rights-of-way from its federal tax return. According the the UP as per its 2013 10-K, most of its depreciation expense is driven by its investments in the road, i.e. ballast, rail, ties, etc.
Equally important, the UP is able to deduct the rights-of-way property taxes from its federal income tax return. Highway users cannot deduct the depreciation expense associated with highways for a very good reason. There is none!
Depending on its effective tax rate, sometimes known as a tax shield, the UP, as well as the other freight railroads, may be able to recover from 125 to 150 per cent of the property taxes it pays. Or its customers pay!
Sam1As it turns out that the UP does not pay any local taxes, or at least much less than the tax rates and amounts would indicate, because it is able to deduct the depreciation expense associated with its rights-of-way from its federal tax return. According the the UP as per its 2013 10-K, most of its depreciation expense is driven by its investments in the road, i.e. ballast, rail, ties, etc. Equally important, the UP is able to deduct the rights-of-way property taxes from its federal income tax return. Highway users cannot deduct the depreciation expense associated with highways for a very good reason. There is none! Depending on its effective tax rate, sometimes known as a tax shield, the UP, as well as the other freight railroads, may be able to recover from 125 to 150 per cent of the property taxes it pays. Or its customers pay!
The track and roadbed are physical plant, the land underneath is real estate.
Sam1 CMStPnP: As noted the AAR calls all taxes levied on real and personal property property taxes. The Union Pacific Railroad calls them property taxes. They are the taxes levied on its properties – real and other - by local and state taxing authorities. This includes real estate. The definition can be found initially on Page 29 in the company’s 2013 10-K Report. The Surface Transport Board R-1 Reports, Schedule 410, Railway Operating Expeses, calls taxes levied on property - real and personal - by local and state taxing authories property taxes. Before denigrating the views of someone that you disagree with, you should do a little reasearch. The railroads, their industry advocate, and at least one regulator calls them property taxes. So too do most accountants and others who prepare financial statements.
I think I would use the IRS definition as well as treatment of property taxes vs someone trying to explain summarization on a printed report. At any rate, I don't necessarily care how you handle taxes YOU are lumping two asset classes together that should be treated differently. Physical Plant as an asset has depreciation, Real Estate has a gain or loss and only recognized on sale. Unless you want to show me a depreciation schedule on real estate.
Wizlish CMStPnP No idea where this surviving Touralux car is or the name of it but... I mentioned (apparently way too cryptically!) that the surviving car is 'Mount Rushmore', at the Milwaukee Road Heritage Center in Montevideo, MN. I guess you've answered the question about how much of the original interior is still in that car. Their official Web site is here: http://www.montevideomrhc.org/photo.php Sometimes there is complaining on RyPN on how difficult it is to repair rotting window sash or roof leaks in a museum's car. Scroll down until you see Skytops for a somewhat more challenging project... !
CMStPnP No idea where this surviving Touralux car is or the name of it but...
I mentioned (apparently way too cryptically!) that the surviving car is 'Mount Rushmore', at the Milwaukee Road Heritage Center in Montevideo, MN. I guess you've answered the question about how much of the original interior is still in that car. Their official Web site is here:
http://www.montevideomrhc.org/photo.php
Sometimes there is complaining on RyPN on how difficult it is to repair rotting window sash or roof leaks in a museum's car. Scroll down until you see Skytops for a somewhat more challenging project... !
Thanks
schlimm If LD overnights will remain with us,
If LD overnights will remain with us,
Myself I would classify it as a third market segment which would be Overnight Intermediate Distance train. I think you will find that there are probably a lot more people out there that will ride a train just for an overnight than are willing to sit on one for a three day two night run. If the departure time was right after dinner and arrival around breakfest I think an overnight train could be partially competitive with air travel without the speed.
Again though, concept would probably not work with two overnights on a train.
CMStPnP schlimm If LD overnights will remain with us, Myself I would classify it as a third market segment which would be Overnight Intermediate Distance train. I think you will find that there are probably a lot more people out there that will ride a train just for an overnight than are willing to sit on one for a three day two night run. If the departure time was right after dinner and arrival around breakfest I think an overnight train could be partially competitive with air travel without the speed. Again though, concept would probably not work with two overnights on a train.
If the time from NYC or Wash to CHI could be cut to ~12 hours or less, overnight service(s) could become quite popular, including for business travellers.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Deggesty Quoting Midland Mike: "I do an annual ski trip out west (usually Colorado), although I live in Michigan and not Dallas. I had thought of a possible Fri/Sunday round trip from Dallas to Edwards CO, (Vail) on the Tennesee Pass line (now out of service). It could have left Dallas about supper time Fri, and arrived at the Vail/Beaver Creek area Sat AM. Short shuttle to ski Sat & Sun, then Leave Sun. before dinner and arrive Dallas Mon AM. The travel time lengths are consistant with C&S and D&RGW times. Vail is popular with Texans." Looking at the passenger schedules that I have from Dallas to Minturn (the closest stop to Vail), I find that the above timing is really optismic. The latest schedule I have for the FW&D/C&S (1/12/67) shows the Texas Zephyr leaving Dallas at 1:15 in the afternoon and arriving in Pueblo at 4:12 in the morning. The latest schedule I have that shows the Royal Gorge running west of Salida (5/1/67) has it leaving Pueblo at 12:15 in the afternoon, and arriving in Minturn--the other side of Tennessee Pass--at 6:25 in the evening; Salida, which is east of the Pass, is 85 miles east of Minturn (and not readily accessible to Vail), was reached at 3:15 in the afternoon. I doubt that the improvements necessary to have overnight service between Dallas and the Vail area would be made, considering that it has been more than 55 years since there has been any passenger service between the to areas.
Quoting Midland Mike: "I do an annual ski trip out west (usually Colorado), although I live in Michigan and not Dallas. I had thought of a possible Fri/Sunday round trip from Dallas to Edwards CO, (Vail) on the Tennesee Pass line (now out of service). It could have left Dallas about supper time Fri, and arrived at the Vail/Beaver Creek area Sat AM. Short shuttle to ski Sat & Sun, then Leave Sun. before dinner and arrive Dallas Mon AM. The travel time lengths are consistant with C&S and D&RGW times. Vail is popular with Texans."
Looking at the passenger schedules that I have from Dallas to Minturn (the closest stop to Vail), I find that the above timing is really optismic. The latest schedule I have for the FW&D/C&S (1/12/67) shows the Texas Zephyr leaving Dallas at 1:15 in the afternoon and arriving in Pueblo at 4:12 in the morning. The latest schedule I have that shows the Royal Gorge running west of Salida (5/1/67) has it leaving Pueblo at 12:15 in the afternoon, and arriving in Minturn--the other side of Tennessee Pass--at 6:25 in the evening; Salida, which is east of the Pass, is 85 miles east of Minturn (and not readily accessible to Vail), was reached at 3:15 in the afternoon.
I doubt that the improvements necessary to have overnight service between Dallas and the Vail area would be made, considering that it has been more than 55 years since there has been any passenger service between the to areas.
By coincidence, I am on another ski trip, so I don't have my Official Guides or other resources to check my original timeline. I will have to wait until next week to re-check it. While my current trip was also by air, I did ride behind a wood burning steam engine running on 1000' of 2 foot gauge track between the two base areas at Loon Mountain Ski Resort, Lincoln, NH.
MidlandMikeBy coincidence, I am on another ski trip, so I don't have my Official Guides or other resources to check my original timeline. I will have to wait until next week to re-check it. While my current trip was also by air, I did ride behind a wood burning steam engine running on 1000' of 2 foot gauge track between the two base areas at Loon Mountain Ski Resort, Lincoln, NH.
Mapquest will give you driving time fairly accurately between Dallas-Ft. Worth and Denver. It's currently estimated at: 12 hours and 46 min for a routing that closely parallels the FW&D / C&S. Now having said that the rail alternative could possibly be slower due to congestion or lower speed limits.
CMStPnPMapquest will give you driving time fairly accurately between Dallas-Ft. Worth and Denver. It's currently estimated at: 12 hours and 46 min for a routing that closely parallels the FW&D / C&S. Now having said that the rail alternative could possibly be slower due to congestion or lower speed limits.
Do not forget the slower desired speed to keep the quality of repose in the sleepers adequate on that route. If a good night's sleep before hitting the slopes is part of the 'draw', we'd better be careful to provide it...
I'd think Mapquest has the average speed information provided along with the mileage -- perhaps using the posted speed limits for data. I don't think it would be practical to run a sleeper train to match that profile.
Now, having said that, the chief advantage of this proposed train is the same as many other 'overnight' services: arrival -- fresh, rested, and ready to go -- in a manner that permits quick enjoyment of the destination. So the actual comparison isn't really on speed or time; if traveling by car, you'd have to arrive in time to check into the hotel the night before, or else drive all night and be wasted on the slopes in the morning.
So part of the 'service' will be to arrange to handle the baggage, check-in arrangements, etc. 'in the background' while the train is running. The passengers can dress for ski if they want, and be bussed straight to their first chosen slopes, while the shuttle takes their luggage to their hotels of choice, etc. Treat the ride as part of the experience, not just as 'fungible transportation mode'*
(*I am being amusing here, in case any of the jargon police start getting their fur ruffled and dander up)
^^^ Thats true. I also think at some point in the future we as a country will be more enlightened on rail travel and adding these trains could be a real possibility. I agree we probably have higher priorities at the moment with the National Debt, Deteriorating Highways, etc. Maybe in another 10 years after more Baby Boomers are retired and asking their public officials.....why not?
Not buying the line earlier that because no passenger train traversed the route in a period of time that some airline passengers could not be recaptured. Thats not how you approach business, well it's not how I approach business anyway. I look at things at what potentially is achieveable not "what is" or "what was" but "what could be".
A lot of railfans on here should try going and running a business. Very enlightening experience and happy I made the move. A lot of small, intermediate and large business owners are clueless and ignoring business areas they could enter to improve the bottom line. It's a fact.
It's why I follow my gut vs listening to alleged accountants or investment advisors on what I should do to be "safe". Our economy is based on risk taking and a proper risk is handsomely rewarded in our economy. It's how I paid cash down on my fully loaded Mercedes ML 350. Never could afford the car otherwise, made the money on investing in Pulte Homes stock in 2013 Naysayers were running aound saying it would take the Housing Market a decade to rebound.......I knew the market was at bottom then. Stock tripled in price. Mercedes for me.....lol. I think this next year I'll finance a Mercedes SL Hardtop convertable with my CSX stock investments. Lots of naysayers with CSX, I actually believe they will make their goals by mid to late 2016.
CMStPnP Sam1 CMStPnP: As noted the AAR calls all taxes levied on real and personal property property taxes. The Union Pacific Railroad calls them property taxes. They are the taxes levied on its properties – real and other - by local and state taxing authorities. This includes real estate. The definition can be found initially on Page 29 in the company’s 2013 10-K Report. The Surface Transport Board R-1 Reports, Schedule 410, Railway Operating Expeses, calls taxes levied on property - real and personal - by local and state taxing authories property taxes. Before denigrating the views of someone that you disagree with, you should do a little reasearch. The railroads, their industry advocate, and at least one regulator calls them property taxes. So too do most accountants and others who prepare financial statements. I think I would use the IRS definition as well as treatment of property taxes vs someone trying to explain summarization on a printed report. At any rate, I don't necessarily care how you handle taxes YOU are lumping two asset classes together that should be treated differently. Physical Plant as an asset has depreciation, Real Estate has a gain or loss and only recognized on sale. Unless you want to show me a depreciation schedule on real estate.
The key point is how railroads describe their property taxes. If you take the time to read their 10-Ks, you might understand what they mean by property taxes.
Property, plant, and equipment is depreciated over various periods by American railroads, including Amtrak, using the group method. Land is not depreciated by railroads or anyone else. No one said that it was!
This is a forum to discuss railroads issues. How they define the taxes levied on their property - real and personal - is paramount for the purposes of this discussion.
solarFunny, I thought we were discussing sleeping arrangements.
Except for accountants, discussing the fine points of required financial disclosure statements tends to put others to sleep.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MidlandMike Deggesty Quoting Midland Mike: "I do an annual ski trip out west (usually Colorado), although I live in Michigan and not Dallas. I had thought of a possible Fri/Sunday round trip from Dallas to Edwards CO, (Vail) on the Tennesee Pass line (now out of service). It could have left Dallas about supper time Fri, and arrived at the Vail/Beaver Creek area Sat AM. Short shuttle to ski Sat & Sun, then Leave Sun. before dinner and arrive Dallas Mon AM. The travel time lengths are consistant with C&S and D&RGW times. Vail is popular with Texans." Looking at the passenger schedules that I have from Dallas to Minturn (the closest stop to Vail), I find that the above timing is really optismic. The latest schedule I have for the FW&D/C&S (1/12/67) shows the Texas Zephyr leaving Dallas at 1:15 in the afternoon and arriving in Pueblo at 4:12 in the morning. The latest schedule I have that shows the Royal Gorge running west of Salida (5/1/67) has it leaving Pueblo at 12:15 in the afternoon, and arriving in Minturn--the other side of Tennessee Pass--at 6:25 in the evening; Salida, which is east of the Pass, is 85 miles east of Minturn (and not readily accessible to Vail), was reached at 3:15 in the afternoon. I doubt that the improvements necessary to have overnight service between Dallas and the Vail area would be made, considering that it has been more than 55 years since there has been any passenger service between the to areas. By coincidence, I am on another ski trip, so I don't have my Official Guides or other resources to check my original timeline. I will have to wait until next week to re-check it. While my current trip was also by air, I did ride behind a wood burning steam engine running on 1000' of 2 foot gauge track between the two base areas at Loon Mountain Ski Resort, Lincoln, NH.
After checking my old refrences, I see that as you say, the train would need to leave Dallas by about lunchtime Fri, to get in a decent day of skiing Vail on Sat. And to get in a dcent day skiing Sun, the train would be arriving back in Dallas at about lunchtime Mon. The travelers would have to have a lot of descretionary time to make this schedule work, so in retrospect, it probably would not be to popular. This was more of a "what-if" projection, and I don't imagine that the present track would still support passenger train speeds.
Mike, the Texas Zephyr averaged about fifty miles an hour over its run. However, in 1975, not all of the track was signaled--Sixela to Trinidad was dark, which limited the speed to 59 mph for passenger trains. The rest had ABS, if not CTC, so it may be maintained for a maximum of 59 mph for freight ( I do not know if this actually makes 79 mph for passenger service allowed). The really difficult part would be reworking the track west of Pueblo for even the speed that was possible for the passenger train to Dotsero from Pueblo.
Johnny
lvt1000 Too many feel good ideas and no marketing or research. Overnight trains in the manner that people remember in Europe are fading away. City Night Line is a shell of its former self, SNCF ended private room sleeper service,international sleeper routes are becoming fewer and fewer. I miss it as much as the next afficianado but Mr. Kenton is lost in the fog or gazing from his private dome car seat. Probably could make business class travel more attractive and innovative and maybe some of that would transfer into some sort of upgraded overnight service. Again dreams should be connected to marketing and hard research.
Too many feel good ideas and no marketing or research. Overnight trains in the manner that people remember in Europe are fading away. City Night Line is a shell of its former self, SNCF ended private room sleeper service,international sleeper routes are becoming fewer and fewer. I miss it as much as the next afficianado but Mr. Kenton is lost in the fog or gazing from his private dome car seat. Probably could make business class travel more attractive and innovative and maybe some of that would transfer into some sort of upgraded overnight service. Again dreams should be connected to marketing and hard research.
Almost all this discussion would be moot if we worked very hard to implement high speed rail connections. Then there would only be demand for really long distance train travel over 2 or more days. At 200 mph, one could go easily from SF to Denver in one travel day. Do the math. Most demand is not for overnight trains except where such are required due to freight interference and very slow trains going upgrade.
What, to me, makes this entire discussion idle is that LD Amtrak passenger is just holding on by its fingernails, offering (most places) a single pair of trains with a couple of sleeping cars. These cars are plenty well-patronized, considering the inherent limitations of the service. (That is, if someone books a room on the Builder Minot-Seattle, as I often have, it's unavailable to someone who later puts in a request for Chicago-Seattle, etc., etc.)
Also, the sleeper service already offers the relatively cheap roomette, a real bargain, especially if you book a little in advance.
Taken with the scarcity of new equipment -- and the remote prospect of more anytime soon -- daydreaming about a whole new accommodation, such as some kind of sleeper-coach, seems a pure waste of time.
Time better spent would be agitating the airlines for something between their cattle car and first class, the second of which flies at an elevation of about 100,000 feet, price-wise.
dakotafredTaken with the scarcity of new equipment -- and the remote prospect of more anytime soon -- daydreaming about a whole new accommodation, such as some kind of sleeper-coach, seems a pure waste of time.
Especially when the new equipment order, now being delivered, included 50 (or more baggage cars.
dakotafred ... Time better spent would be agitating the airlines for something between their cattle car and first class, the second of which flies at an elevation of about 100,000 feet, price-wise.
...
Some airlines have this, in the form of extra legroom in coach, for an extra fee. United calls it Economy Plus.
Midwest Express also used to operate DC9s (normally with 3-2 seating) with 2-2 seating in coach, however they had to go back to 3-2 seating in the bad years after 9/11, and now hey have been swallowed up in merger.
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