Buried in the Amtrak funding section from the House of Representatives is a provision for Amtrak to open its boarding procedures.
http://www.vox.com/2014/9/11/6138123/amtrak-boarding-bill
Comments ?
I think Congress should just butt out of this and other minutiae of Amtrak's business. It has far, far bigger fish to fry.
dakotafred I think Congress should just butt out of this and other minutiae of Amtrak's business. It has far, far bigger fish to fry.
ATK exists only because Congress is willing to fund it. They have "medlin' rights".
Leaving aside your views of Congress, what do you think about the single file boarding procedures? Is it possible there is a better way?
BTW, at the old Central Station in Chicago, 50 years ago the IC also used this method.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The layout of Central Station made it almost impossible to use any other method. The station's main floor was above track level and passengers had to go down stairs to get to the platforms.
FWIW, if the Pacific Surfliners used single file boarding, the schedule times would need at least a half hour increase from San Diego to L.A.
It's completely ridiculous that Congress would write something like this in legislation.
It's just as ridiculous that they'd feel compelled to. Most of the time they meddle it's because Amtrak is inert.
Should they change boarding procedures? Maybe.
The issue is if you want to open platforms up and allow people to queue there. If there is good signage and ample platform space and security, why not? They do it that way lots of places in Europe.
But, Penn Station might be a problem. The platforms are tight and you might need a gate keeper for crowd control.
If you are going to line people up and check tickets, why not lift them there instead of on board? Wasted labor...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The boarding procedures they need to fix are on the eastern LD trains. Even in Atlanta, they only open one trap and shoehorn everyone in, handling out seat assignments on the fly at the door. It takes 15-20 minutes to get the 80 or so folk on and seated. That's just dumb. That's work that could be done in the station and they could open more doors - with all hands on deck.
oltmannd It's completely ridiculous that Congress would write something like this in legislation. It's just as ridiculous that they'd feel compelled to. Most of the time they meddle it's because Amtrak is inert. Should they change boarding procedures? Maybe. The issue is if you want to open platforms up and allow people to queue there. If there is good signage and ample platform space and security, why not? They do it that way lots of places in Europe. But, Penn Station might be a problem. The platforms are tight and you might need a gate keeper for crowd control. If you are going to line people up and check tickets, why not lift them there instead of on board? Wasted labor...
Don: As you've pointed out before, Amtrak does things because "that's the way we've always done it."
Unfortunately, this is the way most of the government micromanagement comes about. Note that the law tells them to study the boarding procedures of other modes and streamline Amtrak's. The study then makes rules that were totally unintended by the lawmakers. And boarding of trains? Is that really something that Congress needs to mandate?
As an interesting aside, the Empire Builder now only carries one Conductor and that has significantly slowed boarding in St. Paul. The personnel cuts recently have made the EB much less pleasant a ride.
petitnj Unfortunately, this is the way most of the government micromanagement comes about. Note that the law tells them to study the boarding procedures of other modes and streamline Amtrak's. The study then makes rules that were totally unintended by the lawmakers. And boarding of trains? Is that really something that Congress needs to mandate? As an interesting aside, the Empire Builder now only carries one Conductor and that has significantly slowed boarding in St. Paul. The personnel cuts recently have made the EB much less pleasant a ride.
Well on this subject at least, I think Amtrak should find a solution to the two stop method it uses on Long Distance trains at most stations on the Texas Eagle route. It's just ridiculous and if I were a host railroad I would be beotching about the time and track capacity it takes.
Whether at a large urban station like DC or Chicago Union or NYC Penn, boarding should not require first being checked at a gate, unless such a procedure incorporated a required security scan. At intermediate stops, boarding and alighting should occur the length of the platform, with all car doors open. If the platform is too short, passengers should be informed which car to use. Ticketing should be electronically scanned onboard. These methods are used elsewhere in places with much greater passenger loads. It reduces the dwell time at stops. This really is not rocket science.
Just because the track platform is accessed via stairs/escalator, doesn't follow that there must be a single file approach. Many stations in Europe have the same arrangement and passengers simply get themselves down or up to the platform and board the train on their own.
Dwell time at a station is certainly something that Amtrak can do something about. The idea that a passenger can't open the train door him/herself and just get on or off is archaic. Most intercity trains in Europe have had station dwell times of 2-3 minutes for decades, even in large stations, such as Cologne. As the train is approaching the station, passengers know to get ready to debark and position themselves near an exit door. As the train stops, doors are released and can be opened by the passenger with a handle or push of a button. Debarking passengers get off, embarking passengers get on and the train is on its way in minutes.
Of course in a situation where the passenger can't/isn't allowed to open the door and that little step stool is required to get off onto the platform, dwell time is going to be drastically longer. Add to that the time to check tickets at that one door and give directions to the assigned seat. As a passenger, I may not understand or care about the need for leisurely schedules to make up for routing around too many freight trains, but passengers do notice station dwell time and see that things could be done faster and smoother.
But to get shorter dwell times in the US, might include modifications on rolling stock, longer platforms, higher platforms (even if just high enough to match the low boarding height of Superliners) in addition to just a plain willingness to do it a new way. So if congress wants it done faster, they need to pony up some funds to make it possible to do it faster.
In Europe, the platform heights are either 550 mm or 760 mm., thus passengers must manage at most one low-rise step in embarking and debarking.
schlimm In Europe, the platform heights are either 550 mm or 760 mm., thus passengers must manage at most one low-rise step in embarking and debarking.
Right, and much new equipment is built to provide for level boarding, even on intercity trains. Or if a step or two are needed, they are built into the train. Newer designs may have automatic folding steps.
Here is the US, on a station like Little Rock or Omaha (and many others) with typical low platforms, it's still necessary to provide that little yellow step stool to make boarding convenient. That just doesn't promote short dwell times at the station.
schlimm Whether at a large urban station like DC or Chicago Union or NYC Penn, boarding should not require first being checked at a gate, unless such a procedure incorporated a required security scan. At intermediate stops, boarding and alighting should occur the length of the platform, with all car doors open. If the platform is too short, passengers should be informed which car to use. Ticketing should be electronically scanned onboard. These methods are used elsewhere in places with much greater passenger loads. It reduces the dwell time at stops. This really is not rocket science.
Right on! I doubt there is a legitimate reason to que the passengers routinely at any station unless there is a reason to lift their tickets at that time. I suspect we do it mostly as the "security theater" we find so appealing at our airports.
Congress needs single file entry procedures and credential check in entering the Congressional chambers, they should also be drug tested before each and every vote.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Congress needs single file entry procedures and credential check in entering the Congressional chambers, they should also be drug tested before each and every vote.
It seems that Amtrak is using cumbersome, antiquated, and "Conductor as control-freak" procedures for boarding many trains. Such as use of the yellow "step box" instead of matching equipment stairs to the platform height, loading an entire train through a single door, or not loading passengers through restricted sets of door requiring "double station stops" on some runs.
It could be argued that the airline industry uses similar cumbersome, time-delaying boarding procedures, but one could reason that because of the unique security situation with air travel, that we board a big jumbo jet through one door "called by row number" is not going away any time soon. Transit, commuter trains, and the California corridor trains aren't using such restrictive procedures. Such procedures are not followed in Europe.
I reason that some Amtrak passengers are put out that Amtrak operates that way, some may have even written to Amtrak with no satisfactory response, so what do they do, they "write to Congress." Their Member of Congress wants to serve their constituents complaining this way, they may have made inquiries of Amtrak and hit a bureaucratic wall, so they write some reform into the Amtrak appropriation?
Now Congress should not be micro-managing Amtrak, but Amtrak probably needs to be a little more customer-centric, and these points have been discussed on this thread. That Amtrak is ignoring this an other issues is probably why Congress is "overstepping its authority" and getting involved.
So one of our frequent forum participants, someone I am imagining has had a range of life experience, feels to response "Congress needs single file entry procedures and credential check" where they conduct their business. Why? What is this remark supposed to mean?
Congress may be overstepping their bounds (not really, they have the legislative authority), but to what end? As far as I can tell, members of the Transportation Subcommittee want Amtrak passengers to not have to stand single file for a credential check and boarding. Maybe Congress should leave this up to Amtrak, but Congress is against a single file boarding line for Amtrak passengers. So for "punishment" or "experiencing first hand what the people endure", members of Congress need to be subject to a line an credential check? What is this supposed to mean, and can someone explain this to me?
And what if Members of Congress indeed have to show passes, ID, or credentials, or at least be recognized by a security officer, say, to enter their offices or enter the Floor for votes, perhaps for security reasons, especially after a dreadful incident not that many years ago where a person with mental illness shot dead two Capitol Police officers and wounded others forcing his way into a Congressional office suite? Would our esteemed forum participant care to modify their remarks if this is indeed the case?
As to drug testing, this is off topic because to my knowledge neither airline nor bus nor Amtrak passengers are required to submit to drug screens, although the employees serving them do. Drug testing is a tremendous invasion, not only of one's privacy but one's personal dignity, and I can see how an employee subject to such drug testing would want Congress to "know what that is like."
But drug testing of transportation workers has come about, not just because Congress "wants to get tough on drugs (for everyone else, but maybe not for themselves)", but there have been fatal accidents involving drugs that have motivated what are admittedly unpleasant rules.
Also with respect to drug testing or Members of Congress, each Member is subject to intense public and media scrutiny beyond anyone working for a railroad. Congress itself has its own Ethics process, and a Member behaving badly becomes a campaign issue for reelection, not only for themselves but for the political party they represent.
So again, are these remarks a matter of "blowing off steam" by someone who has political differences with the current Congress, which is off-topic for this Forum, or do these remarks contribute meaningfully to the topic of Amtrak and Passenger Trains?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicSo again, are these remarks a matter of "blowing off steam" by someone who has political differences with the current Congress, which is off-topic for this Forum, or do these remarks contribute meaningfully to the topic of Amtrak and Passenger Trains?
+1
Very meaningful contribution, in my opinion.
As others have pointed where freight trains run next to platforms the platforms need to be low due to plate "H" freight car clearances. The best solution would be to build station platforms ( completely separate tracks ) with east coast high platforms. Have West coast platforms at superliner platform height so passengers can cross directly over to cars without having to step up.
Unfortunately not possible at all stations . At some locations maybe freight gauntlet tracks in place ? Level platform heights would certainly speed up boarding's ?
At large boarding stations maybe some kind of boarding ushers could board each train at all doors. Ushers could move from train to train ? The boarding I-Pads that conductors use could take downloads from the ushers ?
It is time that boarding location signs also be installed at many stations so passengers que up for their car ? Once a train stops the location annunciator will announce what location to go to . Ex. Train 91, car 9131 go to boarding spot "E". Spots could automatically be computed by where car stops ?
blue streak 1 As others have pointed where freight trains run next to platforms the platforms need to be low due to plate "H" freight car clearances. Why did we ever allow a loading gauge so wide? Answer: Freight has a higher priority, apparently. At large boarding stations maybe some kind of boarding ushers could board each train at all doors. Ushers could move from train to train ? The boarding I-Pads that conductors use could take downloads from the ushers ? Why would US passengers require ushers on the platform. Trains in Europe can enter a station, debark 100 or more passengers, load 100 from ALL doors, and depart all within 2-3 minutes, routinely, everyday. It is time that boarding location signs also be installed at many stations so passengers que up for their car ? Once a train stops the location annunciator will announce what location to go to . Ex. Train 91, car 9131 go to boarding spot "E". Spots could automatically be computed by where car stops ? Why is such a scheme needed? In Europe each platform has a car locator sign. You look for your train and see where each car will be on the platform so you can decide where to stand [letters A-G] if you have a reserved seat or location preference. And on the electronic signs above each side of the platform showing arrival time of each train, it also shows where each train's car will be on the long platforms. It is simple.
As others have pointed where freight trains run next to platforms the platforms need to be low due to plate "H" freight car clearances.
Why did we ever allow a loading gauge so wide? Answer: Freight has a higher priority, apparently.
Why would US passengers require ushers on the platform. Trains in Europe can enter a station, debark 100 or more passengers, load 100 from ALL doors, and depart all within 2-3 minutes, routinely, everyday.
Why is such a scheme needed? In Europe each platform has a car locator sign. You look for your train and see where each car will be on the platform so you can decide where to stand [letters A-G] if you have a reserved seat or location preference. And on the electronic signs above each side of the platform showing arrival time of each train, it also shows where each train's car will be on the long platforms. It is simple.
blue streak 1 Unfortunately not possible at all stations . At some locations maybe freight gauntlet tracks in place ? Level platform heights would certainly speed up boarding's ?
Several stations on South Shore with high-level platforms (Hegewisch and Hammond to be sure) have gantlet tracks in place for freight trains.
The very last time I rode a Metroliner north from 30th St., Philadelphia, I recall a boarding announcement 5 minutes before arrival, tickets checked at the top of the stairs at the concourse gate, and an announcement that 1st class passengers should be at the rear of the train. Passengers were on the platform as the train came in, all doors opened, and the total dwell time seemed not more than two minutes.
schlimm Paul MilenkovicSo again, are these remarks a matter of "blowing off steam" by someone who has political differences with the current Congress, which is off-topic for this Forum, or do these remarks contribute meaningfully to the topic of Amtrak and Passenger Trains? +1 Very meaningful contribution, in my opinion.
I have a problem with government being bought and sold - every thing I have been seeing for the past two decades is that the US has the best government that money can buy.
It is bought and sold daily, from the local precinct all the way up!
The Billions and Billions that are being 'invested' in political campaigns expect a return when the desired candidate is elected.
The Amtrak problem is not having a 'Godfather' that can 'invest' it's position in government. Amtrak is too poor to buy it's continued health or existence.
BaltACDI have a problem with government being bought and sold - every thing I have been seeing for the past two decades is that the US has the best government that money can buy.
+1 And the buyers aren't the American middle and lower classes.
schlimm BaltACD I have a problem with government being bought and sold - every thing I have been seeing for the past two decades is that the US has the best government that money can buy. +1 And the buyers aren't the American middle and lower classes.
BaltACD I have a problem with government being bought and sold - every thing I have been seeing for the past two decades is that the US has the best government that money can buy.
dakotafredBalt and Schlimm don't get a free pass on this gratuitous introduction of (shudder) politics on this thread.
My comment and Balt's were about campaign financing, which C-U has turned from bad to worse.
When I board in Salt Lake City, a conductor arrives early, lifts transportation and gives a boarding pass/seat check (he has mine already made out with car and room number on it). On this trip, when I boarded #14 in Oakland, I never saw a conductor, but went straight to my car and then to my room; the car attendant told me that he had informed the conductor that I was on board, and the conductor then entered the information in his record--I still have the coupon for that part of my trip.
Sometimes when I board in Chicago a conductor comes to the Metropolitan Lounge and lifts the transportation, and at other times no conductor shows, even for the same schedule. Before boarding a Cascade at the origin, passengers are given seat assignments after their transportation is lifted or scanned. I do not remember just how it was done when I boarded at Everett, but my coupon for that leg was lifted.
Johnny
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