Since the "Cascades" are funded in part by the states of Washington and Oregon, any southern extension beyond Eugene is highly unlikely.
No, and the troubles with the border have been resolved.
Is there rider potential between Eugene and Sacramento to justify more frequent service?
I don't think so. The only major cities in Oregon are Medford, Roseburg, and Grants Pass, (or Klamath Falls) all under 100,000. The route isn't suitable for any sort of fast running, being very steep and curvy.
NorthWest I don't think so. The only major cities in Oregon are Medford, Roseburg, and Grants Pass, (or Klamath Falls) all under 100,000. The route isn't suitable for any sort of fast running, being very steep and curvy.
Johnny
As has been noted, most of southern Oregon's biggest towns are actually on the old Siskiyou Route (the original California - Oregon route, now largely paralleled by Interstate 5). But that rail line is very problematic -- steep grades, tight curves, narrow tunnels, and poorly maintained by the current shortline owners. Amtrak did, once long ago, run a Talgo demonstration train down that route, but nothing further ever came of it.
Caltrans has a general desire to extend daytime Amtrak California service north from Sacramento, through Chico to Redding (each with about 90,000 population, though Chico also has a large state university). However, UP has said that they are not interested in hosting any more passenger service, and Caltrans hasn't pushed the issue.
Given the Coast Starlight's current overnight schedule between Sacramento and Portland, the beautiful Mt. Shasta scenery, and the Starlight's current popularity, there might be a market for a daytime train (in effect resurrecting Southern Pacific's Shasta Daylight).
Given UP's current attitude, and other budget priorities in Califonia and Oregon, any expansion between Eugene and Sacramento seems highly unlikely.
All four cities total only ~170,000.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmAll four cities total only ~170,000.
Thanks, I didn't have time to check this morning. Point is, there isn't enough online ridership to justify a train on the Siskiyou line, and the Coast Starlight fills the current need. It is also not an insignificant distance between Eugene and Sacramento, and would require a lot more equipment.
Would also require full PTC on Siskyou route. Bring money by the box car load.
Mac
Yes, the Siskyou line is dark territory and hand throw switches.
Tilting Talgos have nothing to do with PTC and hand throw switches. I suspect the entire Siskyou line would require extensive track rehabilitation for speed. In addition ATK has no right of access to the line since SP got rid of the last passenger trains in the early 1950's so as I understand it the cost would be all on ATK.
Seattle to Sacramento is 824 miles, so it is an LD train, and no longer a corridor train. Also ATK's time between the two is 21 hours. Maybe a talgo would speed it up a bit, but it would not be a daytime train. Would the talgos be suitable for LD, and would they need extra power to clime the Cascades?
The Talgo seats are wonderful, but not enough to keep you comfortable for that long. They would be adequately powered, as track speed is really low, and wouldn't be all that high if the Siskiyou Line was in perfect shape.
Also, because of the one-axle-per-car design, Talgos ride rather rough on jointed rail, having a tendency to rock ( for example at low speed in the Vancouver, BC yards, it isn't a problem on CWR).
It just isn't going to happen, ever.
The ridership (boardings and alightings) in those intervening towns currently is quite low (2013).
Dunsmuir: 5912
Chico: 12,875
Redding: 13,269
Chemult, OR: 10,144
Klamuth Falls has a fairly large ridership number, 33,929.
schlimm The ridership (boardings and alightings) in those intervening towns currently is quite low (2013). Dunsmuir: 5912 Chico: 12,875 Redding: 13,269 Chemult, OR: 10,144 Klamuth Falls has a fairly large ridership number, 33,929.
Yes, but look at the Coast Starlight's scheduled times at those stations:
Klamath Falls roughly 8:15am (northbound) and 10pm (southbound).
The 3 California stops (Dunsmuir, Chico, & Redding) are all between 12 Midnight and 5am. Given the middle-of-the-night schedules, those boardings numbers look pretty darn good. Thus the suggestion of daylight service over at least part of this route.
The fact that Chemult has 10,000, with decent morning an evening schedules, when the population of the town is only 3,000, would seem to say something about demand vs. time-of-day scheduling.
And this thread is really about long-distance service, because Eugene (or Portland) to Sacramento (or the San Francisco Bay area) is really too long to be a "corridor", much less an addition to the existing Vancouver-Seattle-Portland-Eugene corridor.
Chemult has only 300 residents. It's mostly in the middle of national forests, pretty close to Crater Lake, as I recall.
schlimm Chemult has only 300 residents. It's mostly in the middle of national forests, pretty close to Crater Lake, as I recall.
Thanks Schlimm. My mistake -- it is 300, not 3,000.
Just makes my comment stronger, I think.
Dragoman schlimm Chemult has only 300 residents. It's mostly in the middle of national forests, pretty close to Crater Lake, as I recall. Thanks Schlimm. My mistake -- it is 300, not 3,000. Just makes my comment stronger, I think.
schlimm ... I agree, but it makes me wonder who is getting on and off there? Campers and vacationers, but that seems a stretch.
...
Chemult is the closest station to Crater Lake Nat'l Park, and also the city of Bend, pop 77,000
MidlandMikeChemult is the closest station to Crater Lake Nat'l Park, and also the city of Bend, pop 77,000
As I said about Crater lake, but difficult to get to the park from Chemult by public transportation. A lot of folks who live in Bend are well-off California retiree exiles. They may be the traffic source.
If Amtrak in existence outside the NEC 25 - 30 years in the future ---- maybe once very more routes needing service.
YoHo,
Bend to Chemult in the winter is a piece of cake. At worst it is compact snow and ice, good for 60 MPH.
As to I 5, the only place that chains are routinely required is Syskiou Summit south of Medford. The three humps north of Medford could be kind of sporty in a storm but none of them are over 2000 feet. I do not recall seeing chain install/remove pull out lanes north of Medford.
Remember the SP got out of passenger service on this line in the early 1950's. The train could not compete with old, slow, through the middle of every town US 99. With I 5 anyone can overage about 65 MPH in good weather. The train would probably make half that speed between Eugene and Red Bluff.
Oh sure, and once you get from Oregon State troopers into CHP you can put the hammer down and average even more...except for the stop to have your produce inspected.
All I know is friends in Roseville who want to go home to Salem during the winter have to watch the weather.
I'm just curious if there's enough travel between the state of Jefferson towns to even justify anything? what SP could accomplish in the 50s is useful to know, but not a 1:1 map with what could be done in 2014.
I'm not advocating it strongly. I'm just curious if there is such a thing as a rural corridor train that is viable. Maybe using DMUs or something.
DragomanAs has been noted, most of southern Oregon's biggest towns are actually on the old Siskiyou Route (the original California - Oregon route, now largely paralleled by Interstate 5). But that rail line is very problematic -- steep grades, tight curves, narrow tunnels, and poorly maintained by the current shortline owners. Amtrak did, once long ago, run a Talgo demonstration train down that route, but nothing further ever came of it. Caltrans has a general desire to extend daytime Amtrak California service north from Sacramento, through Chico to Redding (each with about 90,000 population, though Chico also has a large state university). However, UP has said that they are not interested in hosting any more passenger service, and Caltrans hasn't pushed the issue. Given the Coast Starlight's current overnight schedule between Sacramento and Portland, the beautiful Mt. Shasta scenery, and the Starlight's current popularity, there might be a market for a daytime train (in effect resurrecting Southern Pacific's Shasta Daylight). Given UP's current attitude, and other budget priorities in Califonia and Oregon, any expansion between Eugene and Sacramento seems highly unlikely.
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