The reopening of SPUD caused me to wonder if and how Minneapolis could have a through passenger railroad station again, connecting to both Chicago and points north and west. Looking at the Google earth, it seems the route via the Great Northern depot is gone forever, as is the Milwaukee route west and north. So it looks like Minneapolis could never have a downtown depot again except at phenomenal expense. Best you could do is about 1.5 miles north on Hennepin or Broadway.
Is this true?
If so, are there any other large US cities where this also applies?
I'm not suggesting this should be on anyone's priority list.
What about Target Field Station if the GN line west to Willmar is used, and the wye at E. Hennepin going east?
The Detroit (ex-MC/NYC) Amtrak station was abandoned for a new one about 3 miles north of downtown when the route was extended to suburban Pontiac. They are finally going to build a light rail line which will connect the new station to downtown.
For Minneapolis, it seems they should have built a new station before closing Midway.
PRR moved thru trains out of Broad St Station in downtown Phily in favor of 30th St Station years ago. Oakland is about 10 miles from San Francisco, and I have no idea where Emeryville is.
Emeryville is just across the Bay from San Francisco, and is about five miles north of the Jack London Square Station in Oakland.
When Amtrak was carrying LCL materials on the California Zephyr, the train was too long to be handled in Oakland (street crossings would be blocked), so Emeryville became the western terminal for the train.
There is little difference in the bus time to/from Oakland and to/from Emeryville.
Johnny
MidlandMike The Detroit (ex-MC/NYC) Amtrak station was abandoned for a new one about 3 miles north of downtown when the route was extended to suburban Pontiac. They are finally going to build a light rail line which will connect the new station to downtown.
Detroit has preserved the ROW from Milwaukee Junction just Northeast of the New Center Amtrak stop that traverses all the way to the riverfront downtown and Detroit could easily build a riverfront station downtown and it could be served by Amtrak........if the city had the funds. There is plenty of space all they need to do is relay the track from Milwaukee Junction to the riverfront. The New Center Amtrak station was only supposed to be temporary but apparently for speed they are going to make it permanent and rely on a streetcar transfer as they used to do at MC Depot.
In regards to MC Depot. The ROW to that is still preserved as well. However, it does not make sense to use that station unless the train is to continue onwards to Windsor, Canada and even then might be shorter to just build a line along the riverfront from a new downtown riverfront station that connects to that tunnel vs trying to revive that MC Station.
30th St. Phillly is not all that inconvenient, with heavy rail rapid transit, light rail rapid trainsit, and frequent commuter trains to the City Hall. Berlin has a new station pretty much in the heart of the City used now by nearly all intercity trains, making connections convenient, and also used by most of the commuter trains (S-Bahn) and, so I understand, one new U-Bahn, subway line. There was an extensive article by David Read in Trains on this station about four or five years ago.
Atlanta has a similar problem. The old stations were at the south end of downtown. Downtown is growing north so a new station needs being built north along the present NS Crescent line. Very important for the time when more routes begin going thru ATL.. As well track layout is such that speeds thru Atlanta can be much faster for a station on north side of downtown.
I've just recalled that Denver has a wonderfully restored Union Station, only problem is you can't head south out of it! There looks to be a bridge still extant over Cherry Creek alongside 13th street, just knock down a few undistinguished new buildings and the Pepsi Center and you're back in business. I would have thought front range services might be useful in time, BNSF/UP don't have capacity on the Joint Line, but that's another story.
Also, it was unfortunate and unwise that North & South stations in Boston weren't directly (efficiently) connected when the Big Dig happened.
I agree that the North South Tunnel in Boston was a big miss. This is not a project about a hypothetical future in which inter city passenger trains reappear, but about here and now where there are large and established passenger volumes. The idea is still being talked about, but it seems to me there are significant technical challenges, very complex and possibly corrupt politics involved, and if the Big Dig is anything to go by, astronomical costs. My understanding is that the cost of urban railway tunnelling is not the tunnels themselves, but the underground stations, and the proposal is to build not one but three within a mile and a half of each other!- North, South and Aquarium. Why not go for just one through mega station downtown? NEC terminus in Cambridge? Also, it would require electrification of suburban workings. I think this project is a bit of a bell weather for passenger rail in the Northeast. If it ever does happen it will signal a change from the once dominant view that passenger rail is something we wish/hope will go away to a positive affirmation of its vital importance there.
CMStPnP Detroit has preserved the ROW from Milwaukee Junction just Northeast of the New Center Amtrak stop that traverses all the way to the riverfront downtown and Detroit could easily build a riverfront station downtown and it could be served by Amtrak........if the city had the funds. There is plenty of space all they need to do is relay the track from Milwaukee Junction to the riverfront. The New Center Amtrak station was only supposed to be temporary but apparently for speed they are going to make it permanent and rely on a streetcar transfer as they used to do at MC Depot. In regards to MC Depot. The ROW to that is still preserved as well. However, it does not make sense to use that station unless the train is to continue onwards to Windsor, Canada and even then might be shorter to just build a line along the riverfront from a new downtown riverfront station that connects to that tunnel vs trying to revive that MC Station.
The old GTW ROW from Milwaukee Junction to the riverfront is now mostly a linear park. The problem with a Detroit station is that it no longer is the end of the line. After the New Center station, at Milwaukee Junction the line turns north to the end of the run in suburban Pontiac. A riverfront station would be on a 3 mile spur.
http://detroitriverfront.org/riverfront/dequindre-cut/dequindre-cut
I believe the old MC Depot is located where it is, because the Detroit River tunnel approaches start there for the line to Canada.
By my reckoning the current Amtrak station is 2.8 miles from downtown, MC 1.6 and GTW 1.1. I have no idea if/how Detroit will reinvent itself, but it is many decades removed from having a downtown that's so overbuilt and congested that would benefit from rapid external rail access, I think. If the current Amtrak market is more in the suburbs, the current operation makes a lot of sense. I shared a taxi a few years back ($70!) from Detroit to Windsor, and got the impression that the two communities had little to do with each other, and cross border transport now being so difficult, I can't ever see fast trains on to Toronto, still less to Buffalo and new York going through there. So, sadly, I don't think the grand MC station will ever come back to life. Anyone for rebuilding near the new one? (!)
Amtrak should consider using the suburban Fridley Northstar Commuter station. It has easy access to freeways and ample parking. Amtrak could use this station the way Amtrak uses Glenview station in suburban Chicago. The station could easily be adapted for use by Amtrak. Sadly it seems that Amtrak does not wish to expand its presence in the Twin Cities so this will never happen.
Fridley seems like a great idea to me. My guess is that a lot of Amtrak's ridership long distance ridership base is suburban in the large Metro areas, so a suburban stop (nearer to downtown Minneapolis than SPUD!) makes a lot of sense.
I wonder if Amtrak's objection is that it would cost a lot of money.
Firstly the platform at Fridley is only 150 yards long, and all trains have to use the western most line.
Secondly there is a plan, I believe to reinstate a third track out to Coon Creek to allow a second platform face at Fridley, but who pays? Lots of shadow boxing, Amtrak staying clear? Gets interested if and when it's all in place?
Finally, one has to say that the BNSF is in such a mess in this area at the moment that they would (rightly in my view) not wish to accommodate anything else that was even the slightest inconvenience.
Dreyfuss Hudson and All:
This post may be a little long, but here goes:
I am a retired NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Northtown with 38 years of service and started with the NP in 1966.
I do not agree with Amtrak's using the St. Paul Union Depot from a customers point of view. The Midway station had long term parking and the Union Depot does not. In October or November of 2013, I was asked to speak at an Anoka City Council meeting regarding the possibility of asking Amtrak for a stop (regular, conditional, or flag) at Anoka due to the upcoming St. Paul Union Depot opening in 2014. I don't know what has progressed with that resolution to Amtrak.
Regarding the Fridley North Star station, there are problems with logistically using that facility. It is served on MT2 only. North Star trains use MT2 to Coon Creek, crossing over to MT1.
Going a bit further, I don't agree with Northern Lights Express commuter, however, I am in flavor of making the Coon Rapids Foley Blvd Park and Ride into a North Star Station. The only catch is that the BNSF would need to install a single crossover (MT2 to MT1) approximately MP 18 in order to serve that station. Otherwise a platform would need to build on MT2 only.
In 2000, I was the clerk to the Terminal Supt David Hanson. He told me that adding a third main track from Coon Creek to Northtown would be too expensive and impossible. Knowing the area, the MT3 would need to start east of the MN610 overpass, bridge Rice Creek, and end before I694. East of 694 is private land and an Anoka County overhead highway bridge (just west of the Diesel Shop and a gaggle of tracks) , which the BN built for Anoka County in 1971 or 1972 due to the fact that the Northtown Yard construction project would close Anoka County Road 2 in Fridley, MN. If you listen to the BNSF's yard channel you might hear a reference to the "Crooked Bridge" and that is the bridge in question.
Things get complicated in a hurry. As information, when the BN wanted to build the yard, the various unions were asked for permission to move the Yard Limit board to the vicinity of Coon Creek, where there was lots of flat and available land. The unions said "NO" and now we have a mess of tracks and truck unloading in a small area.
Ed Burns
763-234-9306 before 8PM CT.
Many thanks for this most interesting information. I'd quite forgotten about Northern Lights- as far as I can tell preliminary admin work is being done, but there's no real traction on the project as yet? This would surely require the three tracking to be done, at whatever cost. The proposed station at Foley Boulevard would as you suggest then surely become the north suburban Minneapolis Amtrak station. As I understand it, there is no planned extension for Northern Lights from Target Field to SPUD, this would be a slow tortuous journey which would increase the amount of stock needed significantly, I would think. The old GN station route would have been much better! So, there will be 0-2 trains per day at SPUD for the foreseeable future. As I understand it, SPUD was part of a politicians' plan to give Downtown St Paul a lift-I never saw the sense from a 'Useful Twin Cities train station' perspective.
Dreyfus Hudson and all:
Let me go back to the original thought of the post. It has been my opinion since my teenage days of chasing trains that Minneapolis only needed one passenger station and that one was the Great Northern Station. The MILW was very nationalistic and they wanted their own depot in Minneapolis. This was a stub-ended facility that trains needed to back out of. The SOO Line trains to Winnipeg or Portal headed in and backed out to a point where they proceeded westward on the joint NP-MSTL tracks and left the joint trackage at point called 14th Avenue North. Then they were on their own tracks. I only saw one SOO passenger train when I worked an overnight job at NP's Lower Yard.
It is my opinion that James J. Hill should have established a "Minneapolis Union Depot Company" complete with a coach yard north of the depot (where the CBQ had their coach yard) and serviced all of the trains of the CNW, CBQ, RI, MILW, CGW, etc. Now back to the MILW. As stated above, the MILW was very nationalistic and wanted their own depot. The MILW and RI each had their coach yards in south Minneapolis, about three miles from the depot. So their inbound trains had to back up said three miles, turn on a wye at Lake Street, and back or pull into their respective coach yards. Quite a process!
A press release from the Met Council (which runs Met Transit) has said that the Green Line (Minneapolis to St. Paul) has exceeded ridership expectations. A St. Paul passenger or North Star passenger can transfer from their respective trains to a Blue Line train for a quick ride to the Minneapolis/St. Paul Airport.
We won't see Northern Lights Express or a third main, but time will tell. The best thing is that the Staples Sub east of Big Lake to two MT CTC, which the former westbound main track being restored within a year or so.
Many thanks- back to the start point indeed!
A few questions- off topic really- that you may know the answers to:
Whose bright idea was it to remove the second main between (as far as I can see from Google Earth) Big Lake and Becker? What was the logic?- Was this before or after the decision to focus Fargo traffic on the NP? Was single track plus sidings all the way from Twin Cities to the Pacific seen as the way to go?
With respect to the current congestion on the Fargo Northtown route, my understanding is that terminal capacity constraints at Northtown are actually a bigger problem than main line capacity. Is this correct? If so is it being addressed? (I understand CP are having problems with local politicians about the project to lengthen Pig's Eye for 10000' trains, and long trains are adding to congestion around there- all this means Coon Rapids to Hastings is often a nightmare for the Empire Builder)
How did passenger traffic off the CBQ get to Minneapolis GN- I assume this all stopped at SPUD? My historical map of railroads in the area seems to show that northbound traffic could bear left at Merriam Park, and then right alongside the west side of I94, toward the Football stadium, before bearing left over the stone arch bridge, but in the area round the football stadium there is no sign left of any ROW. Was this the route?
Keeping this simple; the CB&Q accessed the Great Northern Depot in Minneapolis by trackage rights over the GN. The NP, C&NW and CGW passenger trains did so too with their passenger trains operating between Minneapolis and St Paul. This line is still active. Amtrak while it operated out of the GN depot in Minneapolis used this trackage too. The Milwaukee Road would have had to obtain trackage rights to use the GN Depot.
The Milwaukee Road reached its depot in downtown Minneapolis using its own trackage through the Merriam Park neighborhood of St Paul and the Shortline Bridge over the Mississippi; also used by Rock island and Soo Line passenger trains. This station was closed when Amtrak started on May1st 1971.Milwaukee Road had substantial business in the Twin Cities, including the Ford Plant in St Paul and valuable switching business in South Minneapolis and needed its own trackage and their own downtown Minneapolis depot.
The Great Northern and C&NW operated what was called the East Minneapolis yard near the University of Minnesota. Milwaukee Road built a switch line to access this yard from its mainline through Merriam Park. To my knowledge, the Milwaukee Road never used this line for passenger trains.
ALL:
I am a retired NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Northtown (Minneapolis) and will try and sort out the questions from the last two posts.
A BN Vice-President named Charlie Bryan made the 1985 decision to remove the westbound main track between Big Lake and Becker. He was fired over that! His idea was to eliminate every tenth mile of double track and have a CTC railroad. This was a mistake that came to haunt the BN/BNSF over the years. No one wanted to make anyone look bad, so the decision stood. The BN was heavily involved with the "Quality" program in the late 1980's. The train dispatchers made studies and told management that restoring the double track would save money in the long run. To put a short story long, in 2009, the BNSF re-configured the track at Big Lake (what with the North Star work) to make the restoration of the double track easier. The crossing signals on the north side of the single track have been moved out to accommodate the second track.
St. Paul Union Depot---the CBQ, NP NCL, and GN EB would pull by the SPUD and back into the depot to be properly oriented for outbound movement to Minneapolis or Chicago.
Merriam Park area of St. Paul--the MILW had a spur track from that point, past the old UofM football stadium and into the NP's South East Minneapolis yard. Usually only grain or industry loads to the MILW and empties back used that connection. The MILW would pull in drop the NP cars and go out with their cars. All of the right of way was reclaimed in the early 1970's after the BN merger.
Terminal Capacity--any major terminal is a pain in the butt. Trains from Willmar (100 miles), Dilworth (234 miles), or Superior (134 miles) are dying on line. The situation is such that Northtown is calling "Shuttle Crews" to pull trains into the yard. PTI (the crew hauling is looking for van drivers!). On the Hinckley Sub, the CP and UP trains are also being dog-caught.
An added note--the CNW's 400 Chicago bound train headed up the CNW connection at GN Westminster Tower and backed into the depot (about 1 mile). The Minneapolis train pulled on the GN at Westminster via the west legs of the tower and backed in. Originally the train was pulled into the depot and the power run around the train and headed out.
The GN (now BNSF) interchanged with the CNW (UP) at 14th Avenue. I believe that every three months the railroads swap who delivers and pulls out of their respective yards. This is also done with the CP (X-MILW).
Well---I am out of breath!! Hope this answers a bunch of questions. I started my shift in 1970 as an NP clerk and finished about 2AM as a BN clerk. Lots of overtime in those days.
Please load the Twin Cities Terminal ATCS files for more information.
Thanks so much for this information. I hope others find it as interesting and informative as I do.
The eye opener for me was that CBQ trains to Minneapolis and beyond had to reverse out of SPUD- how inconvenient! I assumed they could somehow use what you say was a MILW spur to the NP at SE Minneapolis. One way to look at this is to say that, from a railroad operations perspective, SPUD, then as now is in the wrong place! A better location would have been 3/4 mile east near Hoffman Avenue, making everyone happy but the CNW to Chicago, but you can understand why the City fathers would not be keen on that. So, to my original point, it turns out that passenger access to the two Twin City centres has never been ideal. It seems to me the Empire Builder might be better off reversing into SPUD around the wye to the east, but I understand there are still servicing facilities at Midway that presumably they don't have the funds to relocate.
You seem sure the Northern Lights express will never happen; if perchance it did, I would have thought there might be a chance one of them could become the Afternoon Hiawatha to Chicago (tail wagging the dog), which would require reversal at Target Field and SPUD.
I think what is happening on the route into Northtown from the north is foretaste of what will happen in many other places as the amount of freight continues to expand- it is just that the expansion here has been faster and sooner than other places - even with massive investments of the kind BNSF is putting into North Dakota. You can't run passenger trains (fast, frequent, and reliable) in this environment.
I think that public demand for rail services may well grow in some regions, but congested freight railroads, and Amtrak services (mostly slow, infrequent, unreliable) that are not a good advert for the product will make any comeback extraordinarily difficult.
The choices that Amtrak made in 1971 for its routes out of the Twin Cities should be looked at. Amtrak should have used the ex-GN line between St Cloud Minnesota and Fargo for both the Empire Builder and the North Coast Hiawatha. BN chose the NP line from Northtown to Casselton North Dakota for its preferred freight route at the time of the merger; which was always a busy freight line. GN was using the Willmar line as its preferred freight route before the merger. The Saint Cloud line still was used by the Western Star up until Amtrak. The track was capable handling passenger trains. When Amtrak began operating the North Coast Hiawatha it chose the NP line via Staples instead of the GN line. The GN line was used only by locals after the merger. Think about it, today Amtrak would be using a line that would see little freight traffic. BNSF would have both its ex-NP main line and the GN Willmar line for freight only.
In the 1970s, Amtrak used both routes to Fargo, with the Empire Builder on the GN, up to the discontinuance of the Hiawatha, I believe. I imagine Amtrak wasn't given much option by BN. 'we're focussing all traffic on the NP because of the location of Northtown yard, there's plenty of capacity (look, we've even begun to single!) and we're going to let the GN line deteriorate, unless you want to pay'.
I imagine BNSF might in future want to upgrade the GN if traffic continues to rocket, even via the cut off from Casselton, but it all looks a bit cramped from Target Field east.
The MILW had a wonderful by pass to the city, of course, which could be connected to the GN, but that's in the hands of the City, and gone forever.
The SPUD was a great spot for railfans.
Yes, the westbound CBQ trains (TCZ"S, EB, and NCL) would pull by Division Street and back into the depot. At one time the CBQ power on the EB was switched off the train and headed to Dayton's Bluff DH. At some point in the 1960's the CBQ power stayed on the train to Havre, Montana and returned on the next eastbound EB. The CBQ E-s could not go west of Havre due to lack of dynamic brakes. The CBQ used GN freight power in return, but I don't know how far the GN diesels ventured off the GN. The NCL always switched power at St. Paul that is CBQ units for NP passenger F's.
Eastbound was about the same, except that the GN and NP swapped out lounge cars (Ranch Cars and Travelers Rest) and their dining cars at St. Paul for freshly stocked and crewed cars. The dining car and lounge car crews worked a St. Paul-Chicago-Seattle-St. Paul rotation. The two cars that came in eastbound on, say, a Monday, were restocked and went out on Tuesday. McKenzies "Dining Car Line to the Pacific" has more detail on this move. I worked as a call boy on the NP in 1969 and early 1970 and needed to know the various NP train and engine agreements. I don't remember reading that the engine crew received extra pay for pulling past the depot and then backing in, also there might have been a local agreement to the effect.
Back to the present and the SPUD! If you have access to an ATCS monitor kit, please download the Twin Cities compressed layout. There are two additional layouts, Twin Cities East and Twin Cities West. Amtrak is death against any backup move, so that is why we see three control points at the east end of the SPUD. They are CP5301, CP5304 and CP 5305. Those are on UP's (X-RI) Albert Lea Sub, but the BNSF East Hump Dispatcher controls them.
There are two railcams at the east of SPUD. Go the "Uniondepot.org" and select one of two views.
Any question!!!
Ed Burns 763-234-9306 before 8PM CT.
P. S. If you are not a member of ATCS, go to Yahoo.com, type in groups, and ask to be a member. It is free and you can load a layouts. I only have five on my computer. We live in Anoka, so I monitor the Staples and Wayzata Subs.
^^^ Your nuts to post your phone number. I can tell you as a former Moderator on another website. Not saying the posters can't be trusted here but there is web crawling software that runs over this website looking for phone numbers and emails for fradulent usage by hackers.
Dreyfusshudson stated, “With respect to Jclass's point, I was rather assuming that the only sensible route north and west was the NP. Two reasons for this, firstly this gets you to Duluth, a likely end point(via what seems to be the ex GN line?). “
That this route “north and west” of Minneapolis “was the NP” continues to be a misperception, probably because this was indeed the NP’s main route out of the Twin Cities (the other being its route to Duluth which was abandoned north of St. Paul due to a horrible 2 percent northward grade). But the route was first that of a Great Northern predecessor, the St. Paul and Pacific. The line was completed from Minneapolis to Elk River in 1864, and to St. Cloud in 1866. This later became part of the St. Paul, Minneapolis, and Manitoba Railroad, the direct predecessor of the Great Northern. As the Northern Pacific was chartered to build west from the head of the lakes at Duluth (starting at Carlton, MN), it initially had no direct entry into St. Paul and Minneapolis. It eventually built a line from Brainerd to Sauk Rapids (near St. Cloud) to have Twin Cities traffic handled by the St. P&P and the St. PM&M. The St. PM&M completed a line from Minneapolis to St. Cloud on the west side of the Mississippi River (via Monticello) in 1882. The NP didn’t have its own line until 1883 with the completion of the St. Paul and Northern Pacific Railroad, which built a parallel line to that of the St. PM&M on the east side of the Mississippi River. Eventually, these parallel lines were operated as double track, dispatched by the Northern Pacific, but right until the BN merger in 1970, GN owned one track, and NP the other. Since neither of the Great Northern routes to St. Cloud were the “main line” (which was via Willmar), and the NP dispatched the “Elk River Line”, it’s easy to misname it as “the NP”. But by virtue of seniority, if nothing else, all lines north and west from Minneapolis at BN merger time were GN lines.
Another interesting tidbit with regard to Minneapolis passenger stations is the lack of discussion about the “Hennepin Avenue Station.” While the individual timetables of railroads indicate that the Milwaukee Road, Rock Island, and Soo Line used the Milwaukee Road station, and the Great Northern, Burlington, Chicago Great Western, Chicago and North Western, and Minneapolis and St. Louis railroads all used the Great Northern Station, only one railroad, the Northern Pacific, specifically claimed to arrive at depart the “Hennepin Avenue Station.” The Hennepin Avenue Station was, of course, the Great Northern Station (address: 2 Hennepin Avenue), but for whatever reason, NP couldn’t bring itself to admit (at least in timetables) that the station in its largest online city was operated by its primary competitor.
Mark Meyer
Mark:
You are correct that the NP used the term "Hennepin Avenue Station".
As a point of miscellaneous information about the NP--only regularly scheduled NP passenger trains and sections thereof would use the GN between St. Paul and Minneapolis.
A nonscheduled (extra) passenger train, such as a Girl Scout Special, would be received by the NP in the area of 3rd Street, St. Paul and used the NP Lines "A" and "B" from St. Paul to Northtown and west on the NP/GN joint line westward to Staples.
The "A" Line ran from 3rd Street, St. Paul to Northtown around the University of Minnesota, by the GN depot and north and west to Northtown by the old NP Lower Yard. The "B" line pickup at roughly where Park Junction is now and continued to Northtown. What is left of the "A" Line is between Division Street and Park Junction (St. Paul Sub). Part of the "A" line is a transit way for UOFM buses and the other part is abandoned.
Please e-mail if you need more information.
Ed,
Other than the obvious, what was the reason that the NP chose not to call the Great Northern Station in Minneapolis by its proper name, and did any NP employees think this was more than a bit odd?
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