The two train sets cancelled by Scott Walker in Wisconsin will be moving to the Amtrak Beech Grove IN shop on Wednesday. The speculation is that they are being prepped for a sale to Michigan. Wisconsin is still on the hook for $66m without anything to show for it.
if Michigan uses the Talgos on the Wolverine service, they would most likely lease the Talgos, not purchase them. The Michigan DOT RFP was quite specific that MiDOT is looking for equipment to be used only to the end of 2017 for a 3+ year period. By mid to late 2017, the 130 corridor bi-level cars to be built by Nippon-Sharyo for the Midwest and CA are to be delivered. At that point, MI won't need the Talgos anymore.
By 2017 or in 2018, WA state will be in need of at least 1 additional Talgo trainset to support the increased service frequencies on the Cascades corridor. So, it could work out that MI uses the Talgos through 2017, then the WI Talgos go to the Northwest. But it is a very big if on whether it will happen that way.
You left out the most important part of the story: Whose move is it? Is Talgo moving the trains? Is Wisconsin? Is Michigan? Who is paying to have the trains moved? Normally a train move is paid for by the owner of a train unless the move is part of a sale or lease to another party. Who is writing this check?
I believe I read the plant is closing so I would assume Talgo contracted with Amtrak to store the sets and probably parts??
Bob
"400" You left out the most important part of the story: Whose move is it? Is Talgo moving the trains? Is Wisconsin? Is Michigan? Who is paying to have the trains moved? Normally a train move is paid for by the owner of a train unless the move is part of a sale or lease to another party. Who is writing this check?
Well maybe Mayor Barrett learned his lesson that High Speed Rail does not necessarily equate to State Owned Businesses, 5 year plans and no bid contracts. We do still live in a Free Enterprise market place where the best deal for the taxpayer should be negotiated vs abusing taxpayer money to artificially create jobs via what would have been largely a state owned company and operation.............so that Mayor Barrett could turn around in a quid pro quo arrangement and state: "Look at the jobs I created for Milwaukee".
Milwaukee needs permanent jobs via stable companies that will remain in the city long-term not a fly by night arrangement just to get him re-elected.
CMStPnP Well maybe Mayor Barrett learned his lesson that High Speed Rail does not necessarily equate to State Owned Businesses, We do still live in a Free Enterprise market place where the best deal for the taxpayer should be negotiated vs abusing taxpayer money to artificially create jobs via what would have been largely a state owned company and operation.
Well maybe Mayor Barrett learned his lesson that High Speed Rail does not necessarily equate to State Owned Businesses, We do still live in a Free Enterprise market place where the best deal for the taxpayer should be negotiated vs abusing taxpayer money to artificially create jobs via what would have been largely a state owned company and operation.
You mean like every highway in the country?
DwightBranch You mean like every highway in the country?
Not sure what planet your from but here on Earth, highway construction is usually openly bid on by a range of private highway contractors. We don't buy the contractor or an interest in the contractor first and then setup the contract to be no bid so that just that one contractor with a state interest wins the bid.
Talgo also was not arguably the best equipment for the route either. I don't see a lot of sharp curves on that route, it is mostly engineered for high speed already. Why constrict the public to the limitations and expense of a tilt train when the technology isn't even needed on the route it runs on.
CMStPnPNot sure what planet your from but here on Earth, highway construction is usually openly bid on by a range of private highway contractors. We don't buy the contractor or an interest in the contractor first and then setup the contract to be no bid so that just that one contractor with a state interest wins the bid.
So, we get a good price on projects of questionable value? Kinda sounds like Amtrak food service....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
CMStPnPNot sure what planet your from but here on Earth, highway construction is usually openly bid on by a range of private highway contractors.
Name another "private contractor" capable of building passive tilt trains that won't make the passengers barf when riding through Wisconsin at faster than 79mph. Oh and I am from IL but visited the Hayward area of Wisconsin several times as a kid, people from my tiny hometown visited there in the summer to get away from the heat, including one family whose daughter was killed when they ran off a curvy WI road.
CMStPnP Talgo also was not arguably the best equipment for the route either. I don't see a lot of sharp curves on that route, it is mostly engineered for high speed already. Why constrict the public to the limitations and expense of a tilt train when the technology isn't even needed on the route it runs on.
So you don't like the choice of equipment, fine. Oregon and Washington like the trains for reasons that have been run into the ground here. But you are being disingenuous in masking that disapproval of the Talgo trains by constructing a conspiracy theory about an open bid process. There aren't any domestic manufacturers of tilting passenger cars other than Talgo, much less local "private contractors" who could have bid on those trains.
According to whom? You? You "don't see" any "sharp" curves on that route? I don't know you, but I am frankly not confident in your ability to determine the number and degree of curvature sufficient to warrant tilt trains rather than standard equipment.
They are a proven off-the-shelf, ready to run, pair, perfect for the stopgap application until the equipment designed for the job arrives. Then they can move to Oregon and Washington or serve a similar stopgap purpose elsewhere.
DwightBranch CMStPnP Talgo also was not arguably the best equipment for the route either. I don't see a lot of sharp curves on that route, it is mostly engineered for high speed already. Why constrict the public to the limitations and expense of a tilt train when the technology isn't even needed on the route it runs on. According to whom? You? You "don't see" any "sharp" curves on that route? I don't know you, but I am frankly not confident in your ability to determine the number and degree of curvature sufficient to warrant tilt trains rather than standard equipment.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Paul M. would know best about whatever the route from Milwaukee to Madison was to be. From Chicago to Milwaukee is, as above, quite straight and suitable for fast running. But I think (not at all sure) that the stretch to Madison has more curves and poorer track, so the Talgo would have been good.
Paul M. would know best about whatever the route from Milwaukee to Madison was to be. From Chicago to Milwaukee is, as above, quite straight and suitable for fast running. But I think (not at all sure) that the stretch to Madison has more curves and poorer track, so the Talgo would have been good.
It was at least 95% all former Milwaukee Road routing. You don't really need Paul M you can use Mapquest or Google Earth and follow the line yourself in like 20 min.
The route was Chicago to Milwaukee to Watertown which is the former Hiawatha route and the now CP mainline to Twin Cities. There is a wye at Watertown that branches onto a secondary line which shoots straight as an arrow for most of the distance to Madison via Sun Prairie. The leg of the Wye facing Milwaukee that the Passenger trains would use is very mild and already engineered for high speed as it was originally designed for passenger. The leg of the wye that branches north towards Columbus is very sharp in curvature................easy to find on the map in the North of town.
There are some curves on the Watertown to Madison line but none of really serious curvature until you get in really close to downtown Madison. Hiawatha's used to traverse Watertown to Milwaukee at 80-90 mph with conventional equipment without issue. The Empire Builder has 79 mph limit currently for most of that part of the route.
You can follow the route on Google.
BTW, I have ridden, walked, and biked Watertown to Milwaukee, the curves are pretty mild except when climbing the grade through Brookfield, which the talgo has to slow for due to horsepower per weight of train issues...........which even the Amtrak trains have traversing that grade. Sharp curves as you approach North Milwaukee Junction as well but thats only 6 miles North of the Milwaukee Amtrak Depot still kind of in yard limits there (restricted speed).
So you guys can't handle it that Doyle was a crook and manipulated this contract for his own political purposes, huh? Proof is in the pudding...........go look for yourself using the Internet. Mayor Barret was in cohoots with Doyle with the Talgo part of the deal.........which was a ripoff to Wisconsin Taxpayers. There was no business need for a Talgo on that entire route. Talgo was selected for what if gave to Governor Doyle personally NOT what it gave to the People of Wisconsin.
CMStPnPSo you guys can't handle it that Doyle was a crook and manipulated this contract for his own political purposes, huh? Proof is in the pudding...........go look for yourself using the Internet. Mayor Barret was in cohoots with Doyle with the Talgo part of the deal.........which was a ripoff to Wisconsin Taxpayers. There was no business need for a Talgo on that entire route. Talgo was selected for what if gave to Governor Doyle personally NOT what it gave to the People of Wisconsin.
Proof is in the pudding? OK, let's see the pudding.
schlimm Proof is in the pudding? OK, let's see the pudding.
Start with the reasons given on how they selected Talgo and why they used a no bid contract. Ask Talgo what promises the Governor of Wisonsin gave them which was far beyond his power to promise. Talgo bought into the pipe dream and promised the Wisconsin Governor a manufacturing plant if he could swing the Midwestern Governors towards Talgo..............thats when your Governor stepped in and said maybe first.......then later, No. One could see though that Illinois with the most money at the table would be the one picking what equipment was to be used and pretty much where it would be built for the entire Midwest compact and Wisconsin would not have much influence.
So, IMO it was foolish of Doyle to attempt this and as a result Wisconsin got burned.
The move is reported to have not happened last night, and I have heard that it might not happen for awhile. Also these train sets were purchased to be used on the Chicago to Milwaukee line, not the Madison to Milwaukee dream.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/52231522.html
"Gov. Jim Doyle announced last month that the state would buy the trains for Amtrak's Milwaukee-to-Chicago Hiawatha line"
An "expensive model collector"
CMStPnP schlimm Paul M. would know best about whatever the route from Milwaukee to Madison was to be. From Chicago to Milwaukee is, as above, quite straight and suitable for fast running. But I think (not at all sure) that the stretch to Madison has more curves and poorer track, so the Talgo would have been good. It was at least 95% all former Milwaukee Road routing. You don't really need Paul M you can use Mapquest or Google Earth and follow the line yourself in like 20 min. The route was Chicago to Milwaukee to Watertown which is the former Hiawatha route and the now CP mainline to Twin Cities. There is a wye at Watertown that branches onto a secondary line which shoots straight as an arrow for most of the distance to Madison via Sun Prairie. The leg of the Wye facing Milwaukee that the Passenger trains would use is very mild and already engineered for high speed as it was originally designed for passenger. The leg of the wye that branches north towards Columbus is very sharp in curvature................easy to find on the map in the North of town. There are some curves on the Watertown to Madison line but none of really serious curvature until you get in really close to downtown Madison. Hiawatha's used to traverse Watertown to Milwaukee at 80-90 mph with conventional equipment without issue. The Empire Builder has 79 mph limit currently for most of that part of the route. You can follow the route on Google. BTW, I have ridden, walked, and biked Watertown to Milwaukee, the curves are pretty mild except when climbing the grade through Brookfield, which the talgo has to slow for due to horsepower per weight of train issues...........which even the Amtrak trains have traversing that grade. Sharp curves as you approach North Milwaukee Junction as well but thats only 6 miles North of the Milwaukee Amtrak Depot still kind of in yard limits there (restricted speed). So you guys can't handle it that Doyle was a crook and manipulated this contract for his own political purposes, huh? Proof is in the pudding...........go look for yourself using the Internet. Mayor Barret was in cohoots with Doyle with the Talgo part of the deal.........which was a ripoff to Wisconsin Taxpayers. There was no business need for a Talgo on that entire route. Talgo was selected for what if gave to Governor Doyle personally NOT what it gave to the People of Wisconsin.
To quote a poster on the Amtrak Unlimited board: "The list of US companies or operators which have passenger cars available which are certified for 110 mph, push-pull operation, meet Amtrak requirements, are ADA compliant, have business class seating, a cafe or bistro car, and are either built new or refurbed & overhauled in the last 5 years is rather short." And indeed Talgo was the only manufacturer to respond to Michigan's RFP, just as they were in WI, which shoots down your theory. Your portrayal of the decisions regarding equipment purchases as being solely due to political concerns just aren't true, if any other manufacturer had wanted to produce trains with the above specs they could have, and the specs are sufficiently broad as to not intentionally exclude a manufacturer with a plant in, say, New York or California.
The answer to why Talgo was in the article link to JSO from "Blues Bros.' It said:
"Gov. Jim Doyle announced last month that the state would buy the trains for Amtrak's Milwaukee-to-Chicago Hiawatha line, with an option to buy two more trains if the state wins federal funding to extend the route with a 110-mph line from Milwaukee to Madison." [The next governor, Walker, canceled the Talgo purchase and thus also lost the federal funding which was approved. He wanted to use the Federal funding for highways, but USDOT said a loud NO, as I recall]
"Among Wisconsin's planned high-speed rail routes, transportation officials count 17 curves of 2 degrees or more in the 86 miles between Chicago and Milwaukee; 20 such curves in the 79 miles between Milwaukee and Madison; Jambois wrote in a May 11 memo to Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi. If the state has to straighten out those curves, track upgrades for high-speed rail would cost $60 million a mile, Jambois said in an interview. But using tilt-train technology cuts the cost to $5 million a mile, he said."
You have the right to call former Gov. Doyle a man of poor judgement, but unless you have clear evidence, you have zero right to call him a crook. That is plane and simiple.
I can understand his idea that the Talgo deal would get him trains at reasonable cost and the plant would benefit the Wisconsin economy. A ccombination not available from other manufacturers.
I think Gov. Walker is the man with poor judgement. Any state with a capitol and its major educational institution in a sizlble city a two hour drive from a large city that is the main commercial center can benefit hugely from a passenger rail link between them, Albany - New York City, Sacrameneto - San Francisco. Milwaukee really needs a three-pronged commuter rail network, to Madison, Kenosha, and Green Bay.
I won't call Walker a crook just because I think his transportaton priorities are lousy.
DwightBranch To quote a poster on the Amtrak Unlimited board: "The list of US companies or operators which have passenger cars available which are certified for 110 mph, push-pull operation, meet Amtrak requirements, are ADA compliant, have business class seating, a cafe or bistro car, and are either built new or refurbed & overhauled in the last 5 years is rather short." And indeed Talgo was the only manufacturer to respond to Michigan's RFP, just as they were in WI, which shoots down your theory. Your portrayal of the decisions regarding equipment purchases as being solely due to political concerns just aren't true, if any other manufacturer had wanted to produce trains with the above specs they could have, and the specs are sufficiently broad as to not intentionally exclude a manufacturer with a plant in, say, New York or California.
The problem with that is they had a competing company in Milwaukee (Super Steel) which was ready to compete but was not allowed to compete due to the no bid contract terms. Further you can write a RFP so that only one Manufacturer or Supplier can respond to it. That does not make it right, even though it is commonly done in DoD contracts to keep the same supplier for decades without competition.
The whole purpose of buying a transportation system is to select the one that makes the most sense for the environment for a given price. It's not for politicians to pick and choose based on how the supplier can assist them with the next election.
Michigan is going to use the Illinois built cars. It might use the Talgo as a short-term stand in but long-term it also sees the stupidity of using that particular trainset for HSR.
schlimm The answer to why Talgo was in the article link to JSO from "Blues Bros.' It said: "Gov. Jim Doyle announced last month that the state would buy the trains for Amtrak's Milwaukee-to-Chicago Hiawatha line, with an option to buy two more trains if the state wins federal funding to extend the route with a 110-mph line from Milwaukee to Madison." [The next governor, Walker, canceled the Talgo purchase and thus also lost the federal funding which was approved. He wanted to use the Federal funding for highways, but USDOT said a loud NO, as I recall] "Among Wisconsin's planned high-speed rail routes, transportation officials count 17 curves of 2 degrees or more in the 86 miles between Chicago and Milwaukee; 20 such curves in the 79 miles between Milwaukee and Madison; Jambois wrote in a May 11 memo to Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi. If the state has to straighten out those curves, track upgrades for high-speed rail would cost $60 million a mile, Jambois said in an interview. But using tilt-train technology cuts the cost to $5 million a mile, he said."
Actually, that does not answer much as Talgo was not the only train THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN in the competition IF ALLOWED with tilt technology further there is no fixed speed limit in that analysis. I have a hard time believing those costs for a 30 mph increase in speed over what is in place for most of the route currently. Further where are the timing differences between not super-elevating the curve and slowing for it. Also does not answer what degree curve is max for 110 mph.
The Governor moved to use the rail funds for highways only after cancellation and it wasn't the Governor that tried that it was an assembly woman that tried it. The contract was cancelled due to the provisions of it becoming a LOAN instead of a GRANT if the terms and metrics were not all met. This is a huge reason why in IIinois your raising taxes so steeply, you have to meet all the terms of that HSR GRANT or pay back the money as a low interest loan.
BTW, I remember when the Turbo-Liners from ROHR industries were running Chicago - Milwaukee. Heard the same exclamations from the railfan community on how great they were. I thought they were nicer than regular conventional equipment on the inside as well but.......
1. They were fuel hogs.
2. Fixed Consist Amtrak did not like BUT hey now suddenly with the Talgo this is a great feature. Nor did Amtrak like the lack of flexibility or interchangeabilty of equipment.
3. Unique equipment increased Amtraks maintence and training costs over more standardized selection would have.
4. They did not handle extreme cold weather all that well.............Do the Talgos? Nobody knows and my bets are they will not handle the Midwestern extremes that well.
5. I am also pretty confident the Talgos will suck in crashworthiness with a conventional train although we keep getting assurances otherwise. I don't want to be in the first wreck where the Talgo is crushed like a soda can.
The Talgos were purchased in order to have trainsets on hand when the Hiawatha was extended from Madison through to St. Paul -- something opponents never seemed to grasp. The tilt mechanism would've come in handy when going along between La Crosse and St. Paul.
CMStPnP BTW, I remember when the Turbo-Liners from ROHR industries were running Chicago - Milwaukee. Heard the same exclamations from the railfan community on how great they were. I thought they were nicer than regular conventional equipment on the inside as well but....... 1. They were fuel hogs. 2. Fixed Consist Amtrak did not like BUT hey now suddenly with the Talgo this is a great feature. Nor did Amtrak like the lack of flexibility or interchangeabilty of equipment. 3. Unique equipment increased Amtraks maintence and training costs over more standardized selection would have. 4. They did not handle extreme cold weather all that well.............Do the Talgos? Nobody knows and my bets are they will not handle the Midwestern extremes that well. 5. I am also pretty confident the Talgos will suck in crashworthiness with a conventional train although we keep getting assurances otherwise. I don't want to be in the first wreck where the Talgo is crushed like a soda can.
And again, Talgo was the only one promising to bring rail-car-building jobs to Wisconsin.
daveklepper And again, Talgo was the only one promising to bring rail-car-building jobs to Wisconsin.
Quid pro quo for selecting them but of course your also incorrect. Super Steel is in Milwaukee and also stated it wanted the contract and would assemble the cars in Wisconsin. As you may or may not know, Super Steel already has railroad assembly experience in that it assembles hoods for EMD or used to.
Additionially, Milwaukee already had resident and some residual railcar building experience there as thats where the Milwaukee Road built and rebuilt the Hiawatha Passenger Cars. Significant tooling from that operation was purchased by Northern Railcar Co. Not sure if they are still in business or if they were a bidder. Milwaukee was not however, virgin territory for rail car building as presented.
Milwaukee is also home to only one of two Army Reserve Railway Bn, which also have experience in railcar maintenence / rebuild they used to train at the Milwaukee Shops not sure if Canadian Pacific extended the same deal.
Point is, Wisconsin already had rail car building jobs.
schlimm You may well be right about the Talgos, but they have been quite good performers in the Pacific NW. Turboliners are apples and oranges. You do not advance the credibility of your argument, however, by politicizing it. You may well be a Walker devotee, but using facts is far more effective than making unsupported criminal allegations against his predecessor. As to his proposed use of the money for highways, the Assembly woman was merely following his orders.
You may well be right about the Talgos, but they have been quite good performers in the Pacific NW. Turboliners are apples and oranges. You do not advance the credibility of your argument, however, by politicizing it. You may well be a Walker devotee, but using facts is far more effective than making unsupported criminal allegations against his predecessor. As to his proposed use of the money for highways, the Assembly woman was merely following his orders.
No the assemblywoman was acting independently. Walker would have used a Senator if he wanted a sponsor. Anyways, just because I defend Walker on what I think was a smart decision for Wisconsin does not mean I am a Walker devotee. Doyle was a classic Democratic Hack and IMO, in how he operated the state...crook. Wisconsin has had much more ethical Democrats (Herb Kohl is one), Doyle is way out of what I would classify as ethical.
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