Finally an ACELA ride

[aegrotatio]

Acela achieves 135 in a few spots but the ride south of NYP is a bumpy, jolting ride with some surprising vertical movements especially through high-speed turnouts and other specialwork. The tilting prevents me from feeling like I'm trying to steer the train with my stomach which I do feel when riding the Northeast Regional.

Northeast Regional can easily meet Acela schedules NYP-WAS. The timetable is modified to make the trip at least fifteen minutes longer than the Acela which skips several stops, like Princeton or Metro-Park or whatever that season's skip-stop choices happen to be.

On Acela I find that most of my fellow passengers departing WAS (especially if they have kids with them) are on their way to BOS or points in New England.

[daveklepper]

As long as I can get reasonable service at reasonable speed at a reasonable price with NE Regional I have zero problem with Amtrak charging all it can for a premium service and people who either put value on one or more of the small differences or just value the prestige paying those high prices.

[henry6]

I have no issues with any rail service.  I have issues with how it all is perceived.and marketed by politicians and passengers.  Acela at the moment is not real HSR like the French or Japanese have.  It does have amenities that the Regional don't have and the perception of speed.

[schlimm]

henry6

And on trips of an hour or so, the ACELA is only about 5-10 minutes faster than Regional...one to two hours time difference may leap to 15-20 minutes.  But the cost of the slower trains are 50-60% less expensive.

You really seem to have issues with semi-HSR.  As I pointed out on another post, those high-priced Acelas (which are very popular) help to subsidize the low fares on the long distance routes.  

[henry6]

And on trips of an hour or so, the ACELA is only about 5-10 minutes faster than Regional...one to two hours time difference may leap to 15-20 minutes.  But the cost of the slower trains are 50-60% less expensive.

[John WR]

Hey Schlimm,  

This is the U S of A.  Not Germany or any other of those European countries.   Or even Canada.   We just don't to passenger rail very well; we're into cars and interstate highways and cars.   Frankly, I'm grateful for the Amtrak trip between New York and Providence.   I do think that eventually we'll have a new catenary all the way from Boston to Washington and that will speed things up.   But Amtrak talks about building a whole second passenger railroad almost all the way between Boston and New York.   I'm skeptical about that.   

But I ride Northeast Regional Trains which are cheaper than Acela.   And I have no complaints.    

John

[schlimm]

Perhaps henry should try the lok-hauled, loose coach IC services in Germany, often reaching 130 mph.

Or the ICEs on a dedicated track at 175 mph.

[daveklepper]

I rode the PRR possibly 100 times between NY and Washington, and I do remember.  No, the GG1's did not run 125 mph.  I did regularly time mileposts at 100mph, a mile every 36 seconds.  They may have hit 105 on occasion, but not any faster in regular passenger service.  The ride quality in the typical P-70 coach was OK, not great.  It was better in the six-wheel-trucked dining cars, so it was proably quie good in the parlors as well.  The fastest I ever made it was 3:05,and that with stops at Philadelphia and Newark only, in an Advanced Advanced Congressional WITH COACHES.   In 1959 I did ride a parlor N. Phila. - Trenton and the ride was supurb, but I did not time any mileposts.  We probably got up to 90.

[Overmod]

oltmannd

4500 HP just isn't going haul much of a train at 125 mph.  There's a huge difference between 100 and 125 as aero drag goes up with speed squared.

You must not have read the Siemens-IDOT thread.

4620 hp will sustain 125 mph with a reasonable train any day of the week; the hourly rating of the electric will get the train to that speed.  The wisdom of running a GG1 with 'stock' underframes and no snubbers that fast is another story entirely!

Meanwhile, the later passenger GG1s would easily (physically) reach 110 mph peak and were being evaluated for 120.  (Of course, anything not in the 'special' program wasn't allowed over 100 mph, and while there might have been a few points' cheating here and there, I don't recall that limit being regularly or significantly exceeded by anything the Gs hauled.)  Some actual work was done, and some early schedule acceleration.  The problem with that idea involved not getting up to speed, but braking.  Four Amcoaches and an over-230-ton locomotive means lots of reliance on the independent brake.  An independent brake bearing on separate driver tires.  The logical result was a nasty surprise, but in retrospect hardly surprising...

Anyone riding Clockers in the '70s will remember the hot, stinking joy of the cars on arrival at 30th Street, this after stopping at North Philly and some relatively slow running.  There's a lot more energy than that in a stop from 110 mph.

Imagine the fun of having to use ancient cars as well as ancient locomotives to match the Metroliner timings.  Even the best of the Heritage cars had plenty of outside-frame swing-hanger mass to bang around at high speed... just because you CAN go 110 mph, does that mean you SHOULD?  ;-}

[Jim200]

As the speed increases, the quality and specification of the track must increase. Recently the Europeans were complaining about the cost of maintenance on their high speed rail. This week I took the Texas Eagle from Chicago to Austin, Texasanxious to experience the higher speed rail between Dwight and Pontiac. I too was disappointed since the track quality was a bit worse than that preceding. However, nearer to St Louis was smooth track that a future diesel Acela could possibly do 250 mph. But,after St Louis the stick rail had the Superliner suspension pounding the coach. At 30 mph the ride may have been okay, but after waiting for two freight trains ,our speed was high enough that I thought the suspension had reached a natural frequency. After Fort Worth the BNSF track was pretty good and possibly 125 mph was doable. A lot of work remains to be done to get the Amtrak system up to higher speed , but all is possible. The NECneeds to be upgraded to 250 mph.

[Phoebe Vet]

I have only ridden the Acela once, but I enjoyed it.  I sat there and wished that all of Amtrak's trains were that nice.

[oltmannd]

henry6

I got to thinking after posting about reports I heard of the PRR' s  GG1's doing 125 on a regular basis.

Got to be urban legend.  Consider those four car "Metroliner Service" trains the Gs held while the Metroliners were being (badly) rebuilt.  They could just barely get over 100 mph and couldn't hold down a sub-three hour schedule.  Best I ever timed a G hauled train was in the mid 90s - a clocker with 6-8 cars circa 1975..

4500 HP just isn't going haul much of a train at 125 mph.  There's a huge difference between 100 and 125 as aero drag goes up with speed squared.

henry6

But now I also wonder about the ride quality of a GG1 and a dozen PRR First Class coaches on this same right of way with stick rather than welded rail

Stick rail  - well maintained - is not really a ride quality factor.  If you keep the joints tight and the ballast in good shape.  Welded rail is a maintenance saver, not a ride quality thing.

[BaltACD]

Regarding ride quality - remember this is the Northeast and it is Winter.  A Winter of heavy freezing - a couple of thaws and the heavy refreezing.  The natural creation of 'frost heaves'.  Additionally, it is impossible to adequately surface a track segment when the ground is frozen - and in the NE the ground has been basically frozen since November.

[henry6]

I got to thinking after posting about reports I heard of the PRR' s  GG1's doing 125 on a regular basis.  That would have been on stick rail and with standard equipment.  I don't have a 1930's or 40's era timetable, either public or employee, to check those speeds, to see if they were schedules at that or just could do that.  If anyone has an ETT and can check the speed limits and restrictions, I would be interested.  

And by all means I do admit our ride Saturday was a very short distance and that speed could not be opened beyond the allowed 130.  At that speed, yes, it could be marketable over longer distances.  If one could achieve 25 mph faster it could go 100 miles more in 4 hours than standard trains.  So the speed was not so much my concern as the ride quality.  In effect, the ride quality was possibly not better than a standard coach,,,I must ride a standard Amtrak coach through that route to compare despite having rode the Shore LIne just a month ago and had no qualms wit the equipment and ride quality.   But now I also wonder about the ride quality of a GG1 and a dozen PRR First Class coaches on this same right of way with stick rather than welded rail at 125, if indeed they really did 125mph schedules.  I doubt anyone alive today who did ride back then would remember.

[oltmannd]

I believe the Acela zips along at 135 on the south end of the NEC in spots.  The corridor track isn't what it was 20 years ago.  Last couple rides I had were terribly rough through the interlockings.

[henry6]

Of all the bakeries and purveyors of such tempting and delectable baked goods at terminals and stations in and around NYC, Zaros in Newark Penn is far and away the very best.  I must always  bring home something for my wife.   She loves fig bars, theirs are better than great.  However, this time I purchased a fig bar, slid the bag of goodies into my camera bag.  Evidently when getting the camera out, so did the fig bar come out as it was not in the camera bag when I got home nor could I find it anyplace in the car!  The only cure for that, of course, it another next time Ridewithmehenry trip which includes a layover at Newark Penn Station!  

[schlimm]

henry6

So I was expecting an exceptional ride and sensation that Mr. Dangerfield experienced  almost 60 years ago, something that would take my breath away, give me a moving sensation anew.  But I didn't get it..

Sorry your Acela experience was a disappointment and not worth the money.  Two comments: Try riding an actual HSR next time and apparently a large number of people find value in the Acela service or it wouldn't be as popular as it is and help to subsidize the rest of Amtrak.

[John WR]

Henry,   

Thank you for your travelogue.  Reading it is next best to actually being on the trip with you.  Did you get coffee on the train?  I really like the stuff from Zaros and paying for it is worth it.    

John

[northeaster]

henry6, I had a similar ride on the WDC to NYP Acela last fall, I upgraded to first class and had a pleasant meal but the difference in time was quite minor and the ride was nowhere near as smooth as I had assumed it would be. I had many great rides on NH/PRR between Stamford & WDC with comfortable trains and good food and on time service. The fastest train I used to take was The Commander which ran from Grand Central to Boston leaving Stamford around 9pm and getting into Back Bay always on time at breakneck speed...engineer must have had a real incentive to get home!

[BaltACD]

When I was a child and my family would drive on the PA Turnpike (before the Interstate System), when we would pull into a rest area or a toll booth - I would have the sensation of still moving at 'road speed' even though I was now going much slower or even being stopped.  With the pre-Interstate road system it was very rare to be able to drive at 'high speed' for any period of time - 8 to 10 mile between towns didn't allow enough time to build any sensations of speed - that changed with the PA Turnpike and the coming of the Interstate system.

Since we now live in the world of the Interstates and drive both long and short distances on these 'high speed' roads daily - I never have that sensation now.

This may or may not have any application to the 'sliding down hill' sensation mentioned.

[henry6]

Back in the 1950's I remember a story about a guy named Dangerfield who was the Catenary Supervisor for the DL&W who had to go to Washington for some reason. Being an electric man he chose the PRR for the ride.  But he changed to the B&O at Philadelphia.  His explanation?  He felt that the GG1's speed made it feel like the train was sliding down hill with no brakes, or a feeling to that effect.  I rode behind GG1's and New Haven power and never experienced that felling.  I remember riding an LIRR  trip in the 70's in a car full of ralfans when one pulled a stopwatch out and timed the mileposts through Kew Gardens and Woodside at a little over 100.  Don't remember any exceptional feelings.  

My Ridewithmehenry group was finally able to ride the Acela between Philadelphia, PA and Newark, NJ Saturday, March 1st.  It was scheduled to leave 30th St. at 3:37PM and arrive Newark Penn Station at 4:34PM  We had the April issue of Trains Magazine opened to the page 29 graph in front of us using the graph speed map. to try to understand our trip speed.  Timetablewise we knew the train had to achieve at least 125 mph someplace to make the schedule.   In preparing for the trip I looked at last Saturday's performance: the train left 30th Street several minutes late and arrived  Newark four minutes to the good.

So I was expecting an exceptional ride and sensation that Mr. Dangerfield experienced  almost 60 years ago, something that would take my breath away, give me a moving sensation anew.  But I didn't get it..  Oh, it was fast.  So fast I turned my head and missed seeing Princeton Jct. station.  But not the dizzying sensation of sliding down hill with no brakes. No, you couldn't see what was close and had to look farther out the window to see anything if you know what I mean, but whether adapting to that added to or took away from the experience, I can't say.

We glided out of 30th St. about 2 minutes off the advertised and arrived a minute or so ahead at Newark.  It was a good experience but for some reason I was somewhat disappointed.,  The overall ride was not as smooth as I expected.   We rocked through the interlocking seeking our track with the train rocking and there being a little bucking.  The split sliding door jiggled and made noise and admittedly I believe we were sitting atop the front truck of the third car of the trainset.  We got up to speed and were quickly going through Trenton, whipping through Hamilton station, somehow missed seeing Princeton, and then had an application of brakes that brought the speed way down to maybe 30 at Midway before kicking up the heels toward Metropark station.  From there it was a quick sprint and we soon were entering Newark next to an NJT commuter train which was soon going faster than us.

Ok.  I know it was a short trip and I know that the track speeds do not constitute high speed rail so I know my experience is not of high speed rail and that I probably had higher expectations.  And I am not a rail passenger/consumer in the business sense but a fan of railroading and trains so I see and ride trains differently   Up to 10 minutes faster than Northeast Regional services I wonder if it is worth twice the price to ride Acela.  Maybe at this point in time I guess, but certainly not if high speed rail is to succeed in this country.  We rode business class, not first class.  We got four seats together with a table in between The seats were comfortable and I don't think we saw a member of the train crew but once after scanning our tickets.  I guess maybe I don't know what more to expect for Acela service over regular trains.  On January 15th we rode out of New York to Bridgeport, Connecticut on a Regional train and had just as comfortable a ride albeit slower.   It could be the shortness of the Ridewithmehenry rides, it could be that Ridewithmehenry rides trains for different reasons than the ordinary business man or other kind of traveler, more used to commuter needs and services than the amenities and services expected by those more experienced or used to or who need to travel,  I should compare a Northeast Regional ride on the Corridor to understand better maybe.  And maybe sometime get a longer ride on the Acela.  If, that is, Amtrak and proponents of High Speed Rail can do a good enough job of selling the product to Congress and other government agencies around the country and then market it to the public so they will ride.  

It wasn't Mr. Dangerfield's sliding down hill with no brakes I felt, perhaps, but being pushed up hill without enough power.