schlimmIf Amtrak wants to provide more leverage to show the Prez's rail initiative isn't just money thrown down the drain, they'd better hurry up with some highly visible cost-cutting and vision focusing.
I think so. It doesn't even matter if the cuts cause equal revenue drop at this point.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
On auto train it was noted at one time coach passengers also received meals as part of fare. Is that true today ? If so much less increase of fares needed to break even ?
ACYWhy are AT's Commissary costs so high in comparison? I doubt that my answer tells the whole story because I don't know enough about Commissary's operations. All Auto train supplies are provided by the Washington DC Commissary. Every day, a truck is dispatched from Ivy City to Lorton (about 20 miles or so each way) with 2 Commissary workers to supply the train for a round trip. That is an expense the other trains don't have to contend with. There is also a small Commissary in Sanford to supply supplemental supplies at that end. Every passenger eats dinner (there are no short-hauls), so it takes a lot of food and other supplies to supply the train's 2 full lounge cars, 2 working diner kitchens, and 6 sleepers.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The total cost per passenger for AT is $84.40, which is far more than double the per passenger charge for the Silver trains: ($12.81 and 14.83) It is double that of the CZ , which runs 3X the distance. It isn't from onboard labor, but rather the commissary.
It is almost like the commissary numbers don't make sense...
On another question, from the Amtrak OIG report OIG-A-2014-001, Page 14.
"The market research indicated... Amtrak would lose... $91 million in ticket revenue if food service on all short distance routes was eliminated... and $93 million in ticket revenue if dining car service was eliminated on all long distance routes."
So Amtrak can save $71 million in costs and loose $184 million in ticket revenue. That doesn't sound like a plan to stay in business. I can see trying to cut spoilage, discounting items about to expire by announcements, and improve stocking efficiency at the commissary level but the service that people want has to be kept if the marketing survey is to believed.
Perhaps this is a crazy question, but are foodstuffs, either refrigerated or not, offloaded if unused at the end of the run and returned to the commissary only to be restocked shortly thereafter? It would be nice to see a comparison of the improvements in food carts that the new Viewliner diners are supposed to have (I think they are refrigerated carts) and how that improves efficiency of the commissary operation. If the operation was so structured that would seem to have a large effect on the comissary costs.
Second question, are costs like fumigation or food service equipment assigned to the commisary?
I suggest you read page 3 of that report, which shows the breakdown on LD, short corridor and NEC food services. Very different numbers which show almost the entire loss from food service comes from LD.
LD food revenue = $63.5 mil.; total direct costs = $135 mil. yields a loss of $71.5 mil. of the total food service loss of $72 mil. in 2012.
So if the marketing study is correct, Amtrak would lose [one 's' only] $93 mil. in LD ticket revenue (losing 345,000 riders) by eliminating LD food services, but would also not have the actual $71.5 loss, so that the net impact would be a loss of $22.5 mil. not at all what you stated above.
The study makes it obvious that the biggest cost (outrageous on the A-T) is the commissaries, not labor. Finding more efficient practices (out-sourcing the commissary function?) could reduce the losses considerably, while still maintaining the LD food service.
ACYThe commissary is already outsourced. Once you've outsourced it, do you outsource it again because outsourcing is costing too much?
V.Payne It is almost like the commissary numbers don't make sense... On another question, from the Amtrak OIG report OIG-A-2014-001, Page 14. "The market research indicated... Amtrak would lose... $91 million in ticket revenue if food service on all short distance routes was eliminated... and $93 million in ticket revenue if dining car service was eliminated on all long distance routes." So Amtrak can save $71 million in costs and loose $184 million in ticket revenue. That doesn't sound like a plan to stay in business.
So Amtrak can save $71 million in costs and loose $184 million in ticket revenue. That doesn't sound like a plan to stay in business.
ACYThe commissary is already outsourced. Once you've outsourced it, do you outsource it again because outsourcing is costing too much? Sorry I can't continue. I'll be at work for a few days.
oltmannd I don't think they want far and wide enough in the supply chain. The starting point was "I have this commissary...." They took the existing 1950s commissary process for supplying trains and outsourced that. "How much do I have to pay to run my exiting commissary just like I'm running it now?"
That applies to Amtrak LD food service in general, but not to the specifics of the A-T. As I said earlier, the total food service cost per passenger for AT is $84.40, which is far more than double the per passenger charge for the Silver trains: ($12.81 and 14.83) It is double that of the CZ , which runs 3X the distance. If Atlanta area contractors could cater for around $15 or so, it is hard to imagine why Sanford and Lorton would need to be much higher.
schlimm If Atlanta area contractors could cater for around $15 or so, it is hard to imagine why Sanford and Lorton would need to be much higher.
And that includes the employees that man the buffet line...
The A-T commissary cost needs to be addressed and resolved for Amtrak to have any credibility as a purveyor of LD train services. Otherwise it becomes as laughable as Mica's "$15.00 hamburger." Since at least one of the commissaries is in Florida, one wonders if there is some connection with Mica?
schlimm The A-T commissary cost needs to be addressed and resolved for Amtrak to have any credibility as a purveyor of LD train services. Otherwise it becomes as laughable as Mica's "$15.00 hamburger." Since at least one of the commissaries is in Florida, one wonders if there is some connection with Mica?
I also want to be clear on this as well as I suggested outsourcing the commissary in another thread. The answer is YES to ACY.......the current outsourcing agreement is not producing the efficiencies of a consolidated facility. They should close it and produce the meals out of an airport commissary. If Amtrak cannot handle those meals in it's cooking apparatus it should approach Congress, explain the problem and obtain funds so that Amtrak meals are interchangeable with the meals offered to the airlines.
BTW, folks that hate airline food. Airport commissaries serve and produce better food than you eat in First Class domestically on most U.S. Airlines. The issue is the U.S. Airlines are not willing to pay the prices for the more upscale meals offered because their profits on most domestic and close in domestic flights are razor thin. Some of the Middle Eastern Airlines are willing to pay the price and decent meals DO exist via airport commissaries of high quality.
V.PayneI suppose I did read the report (how would I get the numbers after all) and I did mean what I said in regards to excessive net revenue reductions from food service reductions.
Your suggestions should be considered. Why Amtrak seems clueless about this is a puzzle. but the figures make it clear that the problem is NOT on-board labor costs, but commissary costs. The A-T commissary costs are totally out of line with those of the other Amtrak lines.
CMStPnP They should close it and produce the meals out of an airport commissary. If Amtrak cannot handle those meals in it's cooking apparatus it should approach Congress, explain the problem and obtain funds so that Amtrak meals are interchangeable with the meals offered to the airlines. BTW, folks that hate airline food. Airport commissaries serve and produce better food than you eat in First Class domestically on most U.S. Airlines. The issue is the U.S. Airlines are not willing to pay the prices for the more upscale meals offered because their profits on most domestic and close in domestic flights are razor thin. Some of the Middle Eastern Airlines are willing to pay the price and decent meals DO exist via airport commissaries of high quality.
They should close it and produce the meals out of an airport commissary. If Amtrak cannot handle those meals in it's cooking apparatus it should approach Congress, explain the problem and obtain funds so that Amtrak meals are interchangeable with the meals offered to the airlines.
Precisely. I'll be checking out meals on AirBerlin in May, which is offering low transatlantic fares. My sense, however, is that most people do not really select one airline over another based on food service. Fares, convenience and comfort of up-to-date planes rank higher as factors. Since the commissaries used by the airlines are all over the country, perhaps that is the service Amtrak should be moving towards? Or use the break-even NEC model?
ACYFinished a trip yesterday and had hoped I'd have more info of a reliable nature. I still have no more detailed or more reliable info than anyone else on this forum. Many posters, including Mr. Frailey, seem to be certain these changes will be the salvation of Auto Train, but I haven't heard anything that tells me how service will be delivered. Part of the plan is to introduce staggered seatings, but those of us who are expected to deliver the service still have not heard just how this will be orchestrated. Staggered seatings were tried unsuccessfully many years ago. Maybe there will be some new element that will make it a success. I am anxiously awaiting that new information. The train has been running with the extra coach, and the second lounge has not been removed. Passenger counts have been in the neighborhood of 550. At breakfast time, we are committed to serving breakfast to every one of these passengers. This generally has to be completed between 6:00 am and 8:30 am because the train often arrives early (often before 8:00 am). One problem is that the 550 passengers do not all show up for breakfast in the diner at nicely spaced intervals. Most show up between 6:30 and 7:45. With no second lounge car for people to sit in while they wait, some of us have been wondering how these people can be served expeditiously. We have wondered how we will be able to safely serve meals, whether in the morning or the evening, with large numbers of people walking through the diners to get to the one lounge car. With the current passenger numbers, it has already been necessary to exceed the anticipated 90 minute time frame per seating, so that the last seating starts late almost all the time. So far, it has often proved impossible for onboard service staff to have time for their own meal. We are trying to be confident that the architects of this new plan are working on solutions to these problems, but I don't know any veterans of Auto Train onboard service who know how this will be accomplished. That's why we don't make the big bucks, I guess.
I guess the Brainiac's will just invoke the line from Seinfield - 'No soup for you!'
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lots of mid-priced hotels here and expensive ones overseas have basically self-serve buffet breakfasts. Perhaps that approach could be adapted?
Buffet service, or cafeteria style, was tried out on the Flordia trains around 1988-1990, if i remember correctly, or maybe a few years later. it seemed dto create more problems than it solved. I did not mind it, but the food seemed not quite as wonderful as before.
El Al has a reputation for good food from fairly picky people. I believe for flights from the USA it uses the same caterers that USA domestic airlines use for Kosher food, I think this is usually Wilton Caterers. So you might try ordering a Kosher meal and see how it compares with your regular meal on your next flight.
Anyone remember the buffet-diners they used to have on the Silver Service trains? The staff filled your plates and carried your tray and seated you at a table. I wonder if this arrangement wouldn't have higher throughput than current. Skips the order-taking, food prep elapsed times.
daveklepper Buffet service, or cafeteria style, was tried out on the Flordia trains around 1988-1990, if i remember correctly, or maybe a few years later. it seemed dto create more problems than it solved. I did not mind it, but the food seemed not quite as wonderful as before.
The Veggie Lasanga was the best bet on those trains. It was pretty good!
oltmanndAnyone remember the buffet-diners they used to have on the Silver Service trains? The staff filled your plates and carried your tray and seated you at a table. I wonder if this arrangement wouldn't have higher throughput than current. Skips the order-taking, food prep elapsed times.
That modification sounds like it could work, even with many patrons. As far as breakfasts go, if not the buffet, then airline-style food passed out from carts. If a 747-8I with 467 passengers can serve breakfast in one hour, one would think Amtrak could also on the A-T. BTW, the A-T averaged 343 passengers per train in 2012, not 550 as suggested above. The 550 must refer to the Silver Star, which averaged 553, some of whom rode less than the full ride.
An answer to the ridiculously high commissary charge for the A-T ($13,969,000 vs only $1,450,000 for the Silver Star) should be found soon. It becomes very hard to take Amtrak seriously with such an obvious boondoggle going on.
As to the buffet service, it began in '83 or'84--and it was used on the Crescent, for a while, at least. I ate dinner that way when I rode from Wilmington, Delaware, to Pomona (Greensboro) in September of '84. My wife and I ate that way when we rode the Silver Star from New York to Sebring and the Silver Meteor north to Washington in the spring of 1989. The food seemed to be as good as that served in a regular diner.
Johnny
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