dakotafred schlimm I think your earlier comment about his usual anti-government agenda was accurate, but then there are so many forum posters with those views. And so many of you other posters sensitive to "agendas" that are nothing more than views differing from your own.
schlimm I think your earlier comment about his usual anti-government agenda was accurate, but then there are so many forum posters with those views.
I think your earlier comment about his usual anti-government agenda was accurate, but then there are so many forum posters with those views.
If the "views" in question involve carrying on non-railroad related political discussions on Trains.com then mark me down as sensitive...(and please note that I am all for discussing and debating government policy towards the railroad industry)
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I was lucky to ride the CZ and Coast Daylight in 1962 in high school. They were fine trains still at that point. Add to that the Afternoon Zephyr in 1970, which was still quite good.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I would add to Dave's roll of honor the "Hill lines," at least up to their consolidation as BN in 1970. And of course the Rio Grande.
Southern, no. It was a ruthless cutter and downgrader until it was left with only the Crescent, which it found cheaper to continue running for its PR value than to join Amtrak.
Not that I blame most roads for turning against passenger trains in the end. The trains were eating their lunch. Our difficulty as fans always was that we loved passenger trains AND railroads, which were incompatible after introduction of jets and the interstates.
Paul, all I can say is that before Amtrak most of your experience must have been with Penn Central and its predicessors PRR and NYC, although PRR and even PC did keep up some semblence of passenger care on The Broadway. The UP, AT&SF, and IC in particular, did a fine job right up to Amtrak.
Paul,
Although we have disagreed in the past I hope we can agree to lay aside the titles in agree or disagree on a first name basis.
With regard to the ACA, I appreciate what you say and I think the points you make deserve to me made. So you are absolutely right to make your statements for the record. And for my record, I like the ACA more than I like Amtrak abut I need Amtrak more than I need the ACA.
But as for President Obama's promise of an 800 no. and the navigators, I spent over 40 years working for the Federal Government and I am more than a little skeptical. For all of that nothing would make me happier than for me to be totally wrong and you to be totally right on this issue.
When I look at my experience with government Amtrak is the brightest spot I can think of. If you can recall the sheer dirtiness of trains and stations in the decade before Amtrak (and I sure do) as well as delays, car shortages and other problems for a railroad passenger Amtrak is like dying and going to heaven.
So I think and I hope that we are pretty much in agreement on these two subjects.
As far as driverless cars go, you are an engineer and I am not. But I hope you will excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting for them.
John
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
+2
The healthcare situation already has had enough misinformation surrounding it without these forums adding to it. Thanks, Paul.
Here's a timely report - includes Volvo's "Road trains". And take a look at Chevy's EN-V.
http://t.autos.msn.com/car-tech/cars-that-drive-better-than-you-do-1
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Volvo+road+train+concept&FORM=msnspa
dakotafred Whoa -- does anybody really want to surrender control of his vehicle to an outside agency? After all, the auto is all about being one's own boss, traveling on one's own schedule, wherever you want. The whole thing is about owner independence. Give all this up for the illusion of perfect safety? I think not -- unless compelled by more of the big government whose competence is suspect, to say the least. Most Americans are vain enough to think they are good drivers and their car has the best imaginable pilot. Obviously, they all cannot be right. But the sentiment is very American and not to be discouraged, in my opinion. Also, practically: How would you like to be on remote control, when a deer jumped out of the ditch in front of you? Or -- to stretch a point -- when you saw a sniper taking potshots at the cars ahead of you from the next overpass? Face it -- remote control is antithetical to the whole notion of AUTOmobility. Fie on it.
Whoa -- does anybody really want to surrender control of his vehicle to an outside agency?
After all, the auto is all about being one's own boss, traveling on one's own schedule, wherever you want. The whole thing is about owner independence.
Give all this up for the illusion of perfect safety? I think not -- unless compelled by more of the big government whose competence is suspect, to say the least.
Most Americans are vain enough to think they are good drivers and their car has the best imaginable pilot. Obviously, they all cannot be right. But the sentiment is very American and not to be discouraged, in my opinion.
Also, practically: How would you like to be on remote control, when a deer jumped out of the ditch in front of you? Or -- to stretch a point -- when you saw a sniper taking potshots at the cars ahead of you from the next overpass?
Face it -- remote control is antithetical to the whole notion of AUTOmobility. Fie on it.
If this was the 1830's you'd probably find folks making the same complaint about rail travel vs. horses (or walking)....( I don't use "smileys" but If I did, I'd put one here)
BTW, you do realize that the Google system is not a form of "Remote Control" right? The vehicle navigates itself, there is not a central computer in a building somewhere operating it via a data-link.
Frankly the big obstacle to any near future large scale shift to self -driving automobiles is the liability issues, as others on the thread have pointed out
John WR Consider, for example, applying for benefits under the Affordable Care Act. The only way to do it is to go on line. But what of the people who suffer from dementia or mental retardation or other neurological disorders? And what of the people who make a mistake? There is no human intervention to help them; they are just out of luck.
Consider, for example, applying for benefits under the Affordable Care Act. The only way to do it is to go on line. But what of the people who suffer from dementia or mental retardation or other neurological disorders? And what of the people who make a mistake? There is no human intervention to help them; they are just out of luck.
Mr. John WR.
In addition to Healthcare.gov, the President of the United States has told the American people on multiple occasions that person seeking a healthcare plan under the Affordable Care Act can call a toll-free telephone number. Furthermore, there are persons designated as Navigators who can assist you in getting healthcare in you don't have Internet access. Finally, there are some private insurance companies who are also offering help, much like Progressive claims they will help you shop competitors for a better auto insurance rate.
I am not saying this process is going smoothly -- there have been conflicting reports on whether Healthcare.gov has gotten "fixed" or whether it is still difficult to sign up for health care. And I know my remarks are way off topic and I may get my "heels locked down" for getting "political" around here.
But the record needs to be set straight regarding the need to have Internet and be able to use Internet to get healthcare because this is too important an issue for a casual remark.
So yes, just like "they will eventually figure out Healthcare.gov and get it running smoothly", I believe that Google and others will eventually figure out if not self driving cars, cars with a large level of driver assist, and this will allow more people along with people with disabilities to be on the road safely. And this will figure into the equation regarding the proper transportation market role for trains.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Phoebe Vet One in the last ten years, and he was not on an overpass, he was shooting through a hole in a closed car trunk. He was so well hidden that none of his victims or witnesses had any idea from where the shots came. I will give you a partial point on that. During truck strikes, subhuman union members sometimes shoot at or drop concrete blocks on trucks that have chosen not to participate in the work stoppage. They are not going to shoot at cars. I have also investigated enough "foreign object thrown from an overpass" incidents to know that you are not going to see it in time to avoid it. I have investigated a great many car deer collisions. The only fatal one was a motorcycle and the only serious injury was a woman who swerved to miss the deer and hit a tree. I have seen a deer that tried to jump the car and was hit by the windshield. It broke the windshield but did not penetrate it. I think you are under estimating the strength of safety glass. I have investigated a collision with a cow. Much more automobile damage, but totally survivable by the occupant. The only fatalities I have seen from an animal collision involved a horse, and a moose. Both have long spindly legs and so drop about 1200 pounds on the windshield area. They don't come through the windshield, they crush the forward section of the roof. I suspect the radar collision system of the car, which is already available in some models, would be better at spotting the impending animal collision than you would be. Now let's get back to talking about trains.
One in the last ten years, and he was not on an overpass, he was shooting through a hole in a closed car trunk. He was so well hidden that none of his victims or witnesses had any idea from where the shots came.
I will give you a partial point on that. During truck strikes, subhuman union members sometimes shoot at or drop concrete blocks on trucks that have chosen not to participate in the work stoppage. They are not going to shoot at cars.
I have also investigated enough "foreign object thrown from an overpass" incidents to know that you are not going to see it in time to avoid it.
I have investigated a great many car deer collisions. The only fatal one was a motorcycle and the only serious injury was a woman who swerved to miss the deer and hit a tree. I have seen a deer that tried to jump the car and was hit by the windshield. It broke the windshield but did not penetrate it. I think you are under estimating the strength of safety glass. I have investigated a collision with a cow. Much more automobile damage, but totally survivable by the occupant. The only fatalities I have seen from an animal collision involved a horse, and a moose. Both have long spindly legs and so drop about 1200 pounds on the windshield area. They don't come through the windshield, they crush the forward section of the roof. I suspect the radar collision system of the car, which is already available in some models, would be better at spotting the impending animal collision than you would be.
Now let's get back to talking about trains.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet When is the last time you came across a sniper taking pot shots at passing cars from an overpass? Car deer accidents are minor sheet metal benders unless you take some kind of violet evasive action and lose control of your vehicle.
When is the last time you came across a sniper taking pot shots at passing cars from an overpass? Car deer accidents are minor sheet metal benders unless you take some kind of violet evasive action and lose control of your vehicle.
OK, the sniper who sticks out in my mind goes all the way back to 2003, amounting to one nutcase but 24 separate incidents in and around Columbus, O., before they caught up with the guy.
The government says a quarter-million private vehicle-"animal" collisions a year, and a private study c. 200 human deaths from just the deer accidents, per Wikipedia. I will say, if the deer comes through your windshield, you will need a body shop for more than just your car.
While working prototypes are among us, the implementation of the required infrastructure is a long way off. I don't think anyone among us thinks they will be buying one of these anytime soon.
The arguments here are about the viability of the concept. I believe it will eventually be implemented, but I doubt I will be here when it is. It is more apt to be a mass transit system than private ownership. An evolution of the taxi.
To all:
Thank you for your responses to my post. One problem with automated driving is that of hackers wreaking havoc with the system. Mechanical failures present another issue as many of you have pointed out. Since I live and work in an area where poverty rate is fairly high, these cars would be quite out of reach for many financially, as well as the cost to maintain them, which is why such a system may not develop in my lifetime. I feel that this system, if it is ever fully developed, would not have much of an impact on passenger rail because trains tend to go from city center to city center where parking is at a premium.
Correct, the current automated automobile systems I am aware of just give you a chime or something and put the blinker on if the system cannot merge safely. For most of the Interstate system that congested condition has become the norm with the volume out there. SO the driver has to take over to accept the less than safe following distance at their own risk. BUT the problem is by the time that has happened you are down the merge lane quite a bit and are trying to get up to speed on the situation quickly. Did I mention insurance scamers or just kids out looking to harass someone by pulling in front of the robot car and slowing down repeatedly or boxing it in.
UlrichThe self drive car is still a long way off in my opinion. The act of driving currently requires the ability to make decisions and to think, and to use one's judgement. No machine that I'm aware of can do that at present.
Ulrich,
I sure hope you are right but I am not sure. Consider, for example, applying for benefits under the Affordable Care Act. The only way to do it is to go on line. But what of the people who suffer from dementia or mental retardation or other neurological disorders? And what of the people who make a mistake? There is no human intervention to help them; they are just out of luck.
If self drive vehicles were possible I suspect transit agencies would be the first to use them because then they would not need bus drivers. That would be a lot cheaper but there could be problems.
My transit agency, New Jersey Transit, uses no ticket agents at any of its suburban stations. Instead there are ticket vending machines (TVM's). On the whole they work very well but there is one flaw: On a bright day it is absolutely impossible to read the screen unless NJT encloses the machine in a booth to limit the light. It does that at Princeton Junction but I have never seen a TVM similarly enclosed any place else. If, because you cannot read the screen, there is a $5 surcharge to buy a ticket on the train. And if you are on a light rail train there is a fine of $75. All because NJT provides TVM's that are unusable at times and just plain doesn't care about it.
The self drive car is still a long way off in my opinion. The act of driving currently requires the ability to make decisions and to think, and to use one's judgement. No machine that I'm aware of can do that at present. Sure a machine can be built for cruise control (for example), but the driver is still required to make that crucial decision, should I turn the cruise control on now?
Calculators and computers didn't replace engineers either. Automated phone systems didn't replace receptionists, and the plethora of computer inspired time management systems didn't replace the personal assistant. Autopilots haven't replaced pilots either, although planes that can takeoff and land without a pilot onboard have been around for awhile.
Cars will require drivers for quite some time, but if you don't like driving there's always the bus or the train.
I have no idea about why she continues to drive, Dave. I have the police report from my accident and I know she got a ticket but the disposition of the case is private information and I have no access to it.
I have no recollection of the accident itself and the neurologist who treated me says this is typical in an accident that involves brain trauma. I remember stepping away from the sidewalk. There was a curb cut for people with disabilities and I remember the pedestrian walk signal and beginning to walk across the street. The next thing I heard was voices of people positioning me to put me through a CT scan machine at the hopsptal. What I report about the accident is information I learned from the police report.
Phoebe Vet Car deer accidents are minor sheet metal benders unless you take some kind of violet evasive action and lose control of your vehicle.
Car deer accidents are minor sheet metal benders unless you take some kind of violet evasive action and lose control of your vehicle.
Just for the record, the one time (so far) when I did hit a deer with my pickup truck on the Palisades Parkway I did maintain full control of said truck and it was anything but "minor." Even the troopers who responded were impressed.
That said, here is the reality: The demand for gasoline is in decline and has been for six years. Vehicle miles driven are down for the same period. A couple of years ago it was realized this was a trend and no mere blip. Fewer miles driven and fewer taxes collected means less resources for maintaining the status quo. There are numerous reasons for this but the main point is that we are in a new era of transportation. The American highway network is at the dawn of the same era the railroads were in about a hundred years ago: the age of deferred investment. Never mind the letter grade the infrastructure hawks give every year, you ain't seen nothing yet. In short, if there is no money to maintain the system as is then where is the money going to come from to install/maintain anything beyond that?
This post sounds like just an excuse to take an anti big government political shot.
The car will never completely eliminate driver control. There will always be a need to drive to someplace the automation cannot handle and they will always maintain an emergency over ride. Airplanes have had full authority autopilots for many years. Many subway systems run primarily automated. There has been no effort to eliminate the crews.
When you add to the argument the life expectancy of well built automobiles, If they introduce autopilots in 2015 it would be 20 years before you would HAVE to buy one.
The ability to run cars faster and closer together and to run them through intersections without having to stop for traffic signals far outweighs your perception of an assault on your freedom. Consumers would buy them in a heartbeat and brag about having the first one in the neighborhood.
Besides, then you could sit there and text to your heart's content, or watch TV, or cruise the Trains forum.
Where there migating circumstances that allowed her to continue to drive?
I'm not quite sure of the relationship between self driving travel and trains. But I do confess that I have a personal interest here. A few years ago while walking across a street in the crosswalk with the pedestrian walk signal I was hit by a car. That has left me with a brain injury and a shoulder injury and in fact I am lucky I am here to write this post. Of course, the person who hit me continues to have the convenience and independence of driving her car where ever and when ever she wants too.
I don't know if I would underestimate Elon Musk. He's been able to identify and fill gaping disparities between possibility and reality. Look at yesterday's launch of his Space X rocket; transporting a $100 million+ satellite to deep orbit. And raising the ground clearance of all Tesla's with a change in computer code to better avoid road debris. Who's to say he can't game change other ways of transport. I just wonder if it would be better if the hyperloop were developed for freight rather than people movement. One "dogbone loop" could serve almost the entire USA and Canada. The impact on land use would be enormous.
Maybe Sconsin has a relict memory of its own pre-55mph split speed limits. Others have to relearn what they've forgotten?
(Also, do you remember the "reflectorized" day/night speed limit signs of the late 60's that Wi. had?)
OK, OK, I didn't use the Amtrak Michigan service, I drove. About 50 dollars in gasoline and 15 dollars in tolls each way to transport 2 people. Madison, WI to Ann Arbor, MI in 7 and a half hours including one stop, driving legal speeds and including one stretch of tollroad road construction.
There is that stretch of I-90/Indiana tollroad paralleling the South Shore Line with an itty bitty sign "High crash-rate highway -- speed enforcement is strict." After that sign there was billboard after billboard of adds for "personal injury" attorneys. Hmmm, maybe the "free market" was doing a better job of warning drivers than the State of Indiana.
The deal is that Illinois, Indiana, and Michigan have "split speed limits" -- in Michigan, trucks have a 60 MPH limit, that the trucks by and large observed with maybe only a couple of miles per hour over, and that to "maintain momentum" to get up hills. The auto speed limit is 70, but there is this thing called a "Michigan train", of a line of cars bumper-to-bumper NASCAR style doing 80 in the left lane. This wide difference in speed is much like the German Autobahn. In 'Sconsin, the limit is 65 for everyone, and even though you have people passing you when you are doing the legal 65, it seems so much more gentle, orderly, and safer. I guess "our" German drivers are more conscientious than the ones in the Bundesrepublik.
V.Payne Can you imagine the " theories " advanced by the deceased lawyers for a system of inertial equations and pattern recognition. You just have to get a jury to go along.
Can you imagine the " theories " advanced by the deceased lawyers for a system of inertial equations and pattern recognition. You just have to get a jury to go along.
I can not imagine even a coven of deceased lawyers advancing any theories.
Mac
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