There can be many good reasons offered, but six hour delays sitting a few miles from the originating station drives away customers in droves. Not good enough.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Amtrak also has to work with the track owner's mechanical department and dispatchers which have a say in how things are handled.
The AAR rates are set by the carriers and should reflect the all in costs of the activity on an industry average basis. If UP's process is cheaper than industry average, UP comes out ahead. If it is more expensive, UP eats the difference.
Detecting bad wheels, and changing them out, is a routine operation done every day in many places. Most changes are done on a repair track, often with a drop pit. The Class I carriers also have mobile wheel trucks that can change the wheels of a car that a crew set out somewhere other than a terminal.
It looks to me like the inbound inspection did not locate the bad wheel, which would have been changed in the coach yard with no particular trouble. The car was then dispatched in bad order condition which was detected enroute. Once detected, the only cure was to set the car out and the coach yard was the least bad place to do it.
Mac
Paul Milenkovic Another solution is to have Union Pacific's rig for making field changeouts of axles -- without having to travel for long times at reduced speeds and without having to do setouts.
Another solution is to have Union Pacific's rig for making field changeouts of axles -- without having to travel for long times at reduced speeds and without having to do setouts.
Perhaps UP has a different, possibly also better handle on the issue than Amtrak or some other US freight railroads?
Dakguy201 At North Platte, UP changes out wheel sets in less than 5 minutes. Of course, they have the equipment at the ready and a crew that does changes all shift long. Video is here: MI RjQdXToY As the coal car fleet is owned by third parties, I wonder if they make a profit on the repair activity?
At North Platte, UP changes out wheel sets in less than 5 minutes. Of course, they have the equipment at the ready and a crew that does changes all shift long.
Video is here:
MI RjQdXToY
As the coal car fleet is owned by third parties, I wonder if they make a profit on the repair activity?
Repairs to all cars are performed under the AAR standard car repair rules and billing.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Another point is that this particular failure occurred during "normal business hours" and extended into "oh-dark-thirty" on account of the facilities (or lack of same) to make the repair.
The failure also occurred at the start of the train's journey. It happened in Chicago -- a major Amtrak "hub."
Maybe Union Pacific only has their rubber-tired wheelset changeout rig at major yards? Maybe Amtrak simply doesn't have the volume of business to justify having one of these rigs parked in Chicago?
But there is a better way to deal with this problem than to have to operate a train at greatly reduced speeds to a point where one can set out a car. Union Pacific has a way to change a bad wheel in place -- much like AAA coming to change a tire.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
BaltACD For the non railroader - Forget the idea of 'flying squads' that immediately show up at the first report of a mechanical malfunction in the middle of nowhere with all necessary equipment to fix the problem in short order. There is no magic in railroading.
For the non railroader -
Forget the idea of 'flying squads' that immediately show up at the first report of a mechanical malfunction in the middle of nowhere with all necessary equipment to fix the problem in short order. There is no magic in railroading.
Yes, "railroading is hard work." But I suppose "aviation is hard work" too -- I remember being at a model train show where I heard a man talk about being unemployed in these current hard times, but he thought his current unemployment to be better than "standing on a ladder with the (jet engine) cowl propped open on an MD-80 to change a valve in minus 20-deg weather." Those of us with desk jobs who complain about multi-hour travel delays in both those modes and simply wave our hands and just talk about how someone should repair broken equipment will never understand.
Someone who contributes to this Forum has a signature about people not knowing the OTR trucking (and similarly motor coach bus operations) are also hard. But I have read trucking industry trade magazines where OTR drivers are recommended to have the phone numbers of towing companies that they trust in the speed dial of their cell phone. It's not AAA and it costs serious coin, but there is a network to provide somewhat rapid assistance to trucks that break down on public highways.
The thing is that if railroading is so expensive and difficult, tell me again why we are subsidizing it at the level we do? If passenger train operations and schedules are that vulnerable to mechanical failures, why are we telling people we need to have trains because railroads are an intrinsically more reliable mode?
For all of the talk about the conspiracy between Firestone rubber and GM to tear up the street car lines, do you suppose that the operators of those lines, municipalities and other entities, were too happy to be rid of streetcars, because operations on a fixed guideway are particularly hard in relation to rubber tire on highway?
So I think the people who want passenger trains in all forms justifiably need to be clued in by people who actually operate trains, and need to be clued in about some of the difficulties with railroad operations rather than glibly reciting the points on "why we should have passenger trains."
On the other hand, I think that people who work with trains and make a point of correcting users of trains about how hard this all is need to ask themselves "where are we coming from?" Is a person arguing against passenger trains? I support passenger trains, people who think I don't, notwithstanding, but I can respect the opinion of someone in the employ of a railroad that maybe we would get more benefit by operating more freight trains to get more trucks off the highway rather than a passenger trains to free the roads from a small number of cars?
But if a person supports passenger trains and makes a point of reminding people how hard it really is, especially those of us with glib solutions ranging from a mobile wheel reconditioning lab to the Union Pacific system of having a dispatchable rubber-tire vehicle with airbag jacks for doing field wheelset replacement, think of the guy who doesn't have to stand on a ladder in minus 20 degrees changing a valve on an MD-80 -- because he is unemployed.
Part of being employed, such as the specific case of aircraft mechanics-guy and the general case of railroad workers whose employment follows from Amtrak, either working for Amtrak or for the host railroads, part of getting work and keeping work is a spirit of "get 'er done." A person with a "soft" "day job" might be a property owner where they have very much done the equivalent of "standing on a ladder in minus 20 degrees changing a valve." A teacher might have a "soft job", but evenings get spent offering make up exams or participating in out-of-class activities, evenings and weekends and early mornings may be spent preparing for a new class.
None of us want to be told how to do our job. But transportation is as much a customer service industry as teaching or banking or whatever is regarded as not having to "stand on a ladder in minus 20 degrees." One can complain of the operational difficulties, but at some point, one has to offer a service, a competitive service and find some way through working hard or working smart not to strand passenger for 6 hours at night. And yes, airlines have this problem too.
Employees, all employees have their regular assigned job responsibilities and normal rest periods. When a emergency situation occurrs, these employees have to leave their normal job function to respond to the emergency, or be called from thier homes to respond to the emergency. All of this takes time - remember, when you are on the receiving end of the emergency, a minute seems like a hour and a hour seems like a day - to those responding it is more work to be done - nothing more and nothing less and they take their responsibilities very seriously. Responding to a railroad mechanical situation is not just another AAA road call - it requires knowledge to properly diagnose the problem and skils and equipment to fix the problem as well as a spirit of dedication to get out of bed at o'dark thirty on a stormy night to head out to a train in the middle of nowhere that is in trouble.
Overmod I suspect that anything using laser-activated PVD would have far too many environmental problems to serve as a means of building up rotor surfaces or tread profiles! Metalspraying is fun enough! Are you sure that the method didn't involve some form of CVD (where the laser caused a metal-bearing gaseous compound to decompose, for example) in order to build up the material? My own opinion of this situation is that the 'emergency' remediation tool is not required to produce a fully machined and reprofiled tread in the field. It's enough to grind the flat spot so it takes on a modified-trapezoid profile, with now a constant vertical acceleration relative to the 'remaining' tread and the apex of the flat spot, but without jerk across the inflection point. You'll still have substantial motion coupled into the suspension, but it wouldn't bank either the passengers or the track... and the actual amount of cutting and profiling is much less tha otherwise required, and does not weaken the full circumference of the wheel perhaps all the way to condemning linits just to make it easier to move the car to a service facility or drop table. It also eliminates QC considerations on how material that is built up on a flat spot could be treated to assure homogeneity, proper heat treating, etc. etc. etc. -- none of which is likely to be of a quality, in the field, that would satisfy either Federal regulators or my Murphy-Finagle detectors...
I suspect that anything using laser-activated PVD would have far too many environmental problems to serve as a means of building up rotor surfaces or tread profiles! Metalspraying is fun enough! Are you sure that the method didn't involve some form of CVD (where the laser caused a metal-bearing gaseous compound to decompose, for example) in order to build up the material?
My own opinion of this situation is that the 'emergency' remediation tool is not required to produce a fully machined and reprofiled tread in the field. It's enough to grind the flat spot so it takes on a modified-trapezoid profile, with now a constant vertical acceleration relative to the 'remaining' tread and the apex of the flat spot, but without jerk across the inflection point. You'll still have substantial motion coupled into the suspension, but it wouldn't bank either the passengers or the track... and the actual amount of cutting and profiling is much less tha otherwise required, and does not weaken the full circumference of the wheel perhaps all the way to condemning linits just to make it easier to move the car to a service facility or drop table. It also eliminates QC considerations on how material that is built up on a flat spot could be treated to assure homogeneity, proper heat treating, etc. etc. etc. -- none of which is likely to be of a quality, in the field, that would satisfy either Federal regulators or my Murphy-Finagle detectors...
Maybe my remarks about Amtrak trains carrying 3-D metal printing and machining gear to make in-place repairs was too glibly tongue-in-cheek, and I have all of these people with railroad experience taking it seriously and lecturing me that it can't-be-done.
Trains Magazine had a feature on how one of the railroads, I believe it is Union Pacific, does "field repairs" on wheelsets. They have a rubber-tired vehicle that can go to where it is needed, and they have this setup using airbags that can jack up a train car and change out a wheel set right in the field.
On solution to Amtrak's problem, which the original poster suggests happens too often, is to better inspect train cars and their brakes before dispatching a trainset. Another solution is to have Union Pacific's rig for making field changeouts of axles -- without having to travel for long times at reduced speeds and without having to do setouts.
There is a thorough description of "Lidgerwooding" a steam locomotive on page 42 of The C&NW in Color, Vol.2, Lloyd Keyser..
A Lidgerwood is a fixed winch, designed to pull a specially-designed 'plow' down the length of a train of flatcars loaded with fill or ballast. This unloads the train in a short time. I've always thought this was a development adapted from contemporary steam plowing...
It's not difficult to adapt this device to pulling a steam locomotive at a smooth, continuous speed correlated to the 'proper' machining speed for the tread of its drivers.
schlimm BaltACDThere are many actions that were performed in far less time yesteryear than today by shortcutting rules. Put the squeeze on today's employees for not working fast enough any you will get hit by the S word. In today's railroad world the S word is supreme. Is that the real reason or a convenient scapegoat? On the DB in Germany, there are still some trains that carry a Kurswagen, which is a passenger car that is cut out of the consist of one train, during a station stop and shortly attacked to another connecting train. The same occurs with sleepers on some international night trains, where several sleepers or entire trains from different origens are combined. It sure doesn't take anything close to 30 minutes, yet the railway unions are very strong there.
BaltACDThere are many actions that were performed in far less time yesteryear than today by shortcutting rules. Put the squeeze on today's employees for not working fast enough any you will get hit by the S word. In today's railroad world the S word is supreme.
Is that the real reason or a convenient scapegoat? On the DB in Germany, there are still some trains that carry a Kurswagen, which is a passenger car that is cut out of the consist of one train, during a station stop and shortly attacked to another connecting train. The same occurs with sleepers on some international night trains, where several sleepers or entire trains from different origens are combined. It sure doesn't take anything close to 30 minutes, yet the railway unions are very strong there.
When you have PLANNED actions and the personnel on hand to perform those planned actions - thing take place in a much shorter period of time. Unplanned actions by minimally qualified personnel takes longer - remember the S word. Remember mudchicken's signature.
Having been aboard a train during a similar incident last spring while equipped with radio to listen in, I am actually amazed at how quickly Amtrak responds to incidents of this type. If there's a major failing, it's the customer service side for which it's hard to fault the train crews. The incident happened in the middle of the night while most passengers were asleep, and by the time most passengers were awake, the crew had changed.
In the incident I saw, a brake rotor on a baggage car failed, resulting in what the crew at first thought was a broken wheel. With help from another Amtrak train, Norfolk Southern and some VERY slow running to the nearest junction we got under way in three hours. Had we been further out from a major city we would have faced a longer response time for mechanical department forces, a longer crawl, and perhaps more traffic to get around to a point we could drop the damaged car, which took about 10 minutes with the help of an NS yard crew.
schlimm In fairness to Amtrak,, it does not quite say that. The train went to a yard to fix the wheel, then back to Union Station at 12;40 to let folks leave if they wished. Hard to imagine any of those folks taking the train to Michigan in the future.
In fairness to Amtrak,, it does not quite say that. The train went to a yard to fix the wheel, then back to Union Station at 12;40 to let folks leave if they wished. Hard to imagine any of those folks taking the train to Michigan in the future.
...unless Amtrak made it up to them...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The part of the story that would be really interesting to know is what happened the next day at Amtrak.
Did the supervision in Chicago have to explain? Did they have to figure out what to do to keep it from happening again? Did they have to figure out why it took so long to set out the car and how to speed up that process?
Did Amtrak's customer service try to contact each of the ticket holders and apologize (and offer up a peace offering?)
Or, was it just "That was bad. Lets not do that again."
schlimm BaltACD4. Switching out the offending car would take 30 minutes to an hour. My goodness. At one time (50-60 years ago) in American railroading, a passenger car or baggage car could be cut out in far less time than that.
BaltACD4. Switching out the offending car would take 30 minutes to an hour.
My goodness. At one time (50-60 years ago) in American railroading, a passenger car or baggage car could be cut out in far less time than that.
There are many actions that were performed in far less time yesteryear than today by shortcutting rules. Put the squeeze on today's employees for not working fast enough any you will get hit by the S word. In today's railroad world the S word is supreme.
The report from WGN is so vague as to be worthless in illuminating the event beyond the reported fact that the train departed 35 minutes late on it's scheduled departure and arrived back at it's starting poing 6 hours and 5 minutes after it departed because of mechanial issues (presumably a flat wheel).
1. How many miles from the starting poing was 'a few'? 5? 10? 30? 60?2. Once the crew determined they could not proceed, how long did it take to get someone of authority on site to formulate a 'plan of attack'?3. What speed had to be observed for what distance to return the train to the coach yard to switch out the offending car? 10 miles at 10 MPH is 1 hour. 10 miles at 4 mph (walking speed) is 2 1/2 hours.4. Switching out the offending car would take 30 minutes to an hour.5. Depending on how far the train had actually traveled from origin and beyond the coach yard - 6 hour 5 minutes might be considered a very quick resolution of the incident.
The railroader in me wants to know - Was the wheel flat when the train went to the station for original loading? If so, why was the car in the train? If the wheel was not flat at origin, what caused it to become flat and why didn't on train personnel notice it before the wheel became too damaged to continue to destination? Defective cars are not handled at 'line speed'.
Schlimm is right -- 12:40 is the time the train got back to Union Station, not when it arrived at the Roosevelt Road facility. However, the "fix" was to switch the car out of the consist. The article is silent regarding a possible replacement car. Regardless, that isn't a procedure that accounts for anything like the time it took.
From the article, the train departed Union Station at 6:35 and traveled "several" miles. It was then stopped and at 12:40 am arrived back at the coach yard to remove the offending car. The question in my mind is why there was such a long interval before action was taken to effect a solution to the problem. I thought this service operates in a push-pull configuration. If so, it should have been not too much more time than it takes the engineer to walk the length of the train and return those several miles (possibly) at restricted speed.
It sure sounds like Amtrak couldn't find anyone with enough authority to make the decision to return. Bureaucracies do well when the same task is performed repetitively, but they tend to perform poorly when confronted with the unexpected.
Was it last winter that several Lincoln Service trains ended up stranded for hours in the middle of nowhere? Same song, different verse.
Wheels with 'built up tread' are nothing to be toyed with - especially on a passenger train. The only true 'fix' is to change out the wheel set.
Not too many years ago I boarded one of our Florida trains bound for New York at Winter Park. The diner had a very noticeable flat spot on the axle closest to the sleepers. So much so that we proceeded at reduced speed from Winter Park to Sanford. This allowed enough time to eat lunch and I sat, of course, right over the flat spot as we rolled along. I could feel the fillings rattling in my teeth as I ate my sandwich (I think I had the burger) and drank my tea.
At Sanford our train was backed into the Auto Train trackage, power was cut to the train, the diner cut from the consist and dragged over the drop-table to let the wizards of Sanford have a crack at it. In under an hour the axle was changed out, the diner restored to our train and we were underway. The other axle on the same truck had a smaller flat spot but not enough to reduce our speed. At Washington the diner was removed for good and we made our way up the NEC with just our café car for sustenance.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
I did some more research on the "Lidgerwood method" of wheel profiling. The method involves replacing the brake shoes with metal cutting and shaping tools and then towing the train car back and forth.
Lidgerwood is a trade name for a type of winch used in railroad and construction applications. To "Lidgerwood" a train car means to tow it with presumably one of those winches instead of with a locomotive.
I had thought that "Lidgerwood" referred to patented metal cutting and shaping tools. No, to "Lidgerwood" a train car is slang for towing it with a winch, and to talk of a "Lidgerwood method" of wheel repair is railroad slang for machine the wheels by towing the car rather than the more common method of removing the wheel set.
A while back, there was a major delay on Amtrak when dining car had stuck brakes -- the friction and resulting heat had deposited brake shoe material to actually make the wheel tread larger in diameter until it filled the flange space and the car either derailed or was at risk of derailing when the crew discovered it.
This chance application of "friction-stir welding" had me suggesting a "Lidgerwood method" of field repair of a wheel -- by placing the right "tools" as substitutes for the brake pads, one could either add material through friction stir or remove material through metal cutting.
I think I am "ahead of the curve on this." There was an article, was it on Slashdot?, of a kind of "universal machine tool", where laser metal vapor deposition can add material where needed and a 5-axis precision milling head can remove material to an exact 3D profile, providing a kind of 3D printing of a metal part along with metal removal in order to get high precision.
Just as WW-II Navy subs in the Pacific carried a machine shop so they could effect repairs of combat damage without having to return to base halfway across the ocean, an Amtrak train could carry my high-tech wheel repair system?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-amtrak-train-stuck-6-hours-20131118,0,7398624.story
Way to go!!
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